Home › Forums › MGTOW Central › The pleasures of fatherhood
Tagged: alienation of affection, fatherhood, having kids
This topic contains 71 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by 
sidecar 1 year, 9 months ago.
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Great posts, Sidecar, but he’s never going to be able to understand. It’s as if you’re trying to explain to a junkie or drunk why that needle or bottle aren’t good. They can’t understand because they won’t understand and the same holds true with ZombieVader.
He’s just another willfully blind tradcon cuck wagging his tail because he gets to play every so often with the children his ex-wife owns, the children state took away from him, and the children he still pays for. The truly sad part is that he thinks he’s lucky. He’s like Patty Hearst rocking herself to sleep in that closet considering herself lucky because the members of Symbionese Liberation Army only raped her twice that day.
A couple weeks back another member mentioned his boss had given him a copy of Voltaire’s Candide. ZombieVader reminds of Dr. Pangloss from that novel. Like Pangloss’ increasingly illogical attempts to explain the existence of evil in the world, ZombieVader’s posts smack of Leibnizian optimism and theodicy; the infamous All is for the best and Best of all possible worlds “thinking”. In Candide, for example, Pangloss “explains” that syphilis is “good” because the same expeditions to the New World which brought syphilis back to Europe also brought back chocolate and quinine!
In ZombieVader’s Panglossian reasoning, the continued horrors inflicted on him by the legal system, society, and his ex-wife are “good” because he gets to play an occasional game of whiffle ball.
F~~~ing pathetic.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
Great posts, Sidecar, but he’s never going to be able to understand. It’s as if you’re trying to explain to a junkie or drunk why that needle or bottle aren’t good. They can’t understand because they won’t understand and the same holds true with ZombieVader.
He’s just another willfully blind tradcon cuck wagging his tail because he gets to play every so often with the children his ex-wife owns, the children state took away from him, and the children he still pays for. The truly sad part is that he thinks he’s lucky. He’s like Patty Hearst rocking herself to sleep in that closet considering herself lucky because the members of Symbionese Liberation Army only raped her twice that day.
A couple weeks back another member mentioned his boss had given him a copy of Voltaire’s Candide. ZombieVader reminds of Dr. Pangloss from that novel. Like Pangloss’ increasingly illogical attempts to explain the existence of evil in the world, ZombieVader’s posts smack of Leibnizian optimism and theodicy; the infamous All is for the best and Best of all possible worlds “thinking”. In Candide, for example, Pangloss “explains” that syphilis is “good” because the same expeditions to the New World which brought syphilis back to Europe also brought back chocolate and quinine!
In ZombieVader’s Panglossian reasoning, the continued horrors inflicted on him by the legal system, society, and his ex-wife are “good” because he gets to play an occasional game of whiffle ball.
F~~~ing pathetic.
Reading comprehension’s an issue, isn’t it, boys?
Bill, I know you and Sidecar feel like you’re the Special Forces of MGTOW- or maybe the church ladies would be more apt.
For f~~~’s sake, did either of you actually read what I wrote- it was a nice moment with my kids. Period. Not a commentary on my feelings about the court system, or divorce, or ex-wives. Do you ALWAYS go around projecting your issues on to others?
And Panglossian- that would be funny if it weren’t so inept. Try harder with the Cliff Notes next time.
And “Theodicy”- are you for real? You sound like a freshman from a state school home for Thanksgiving.
Use technical terms WHERE THEY FIT- it’ll HELP your argument. (A pleasant evening is NOT
“the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil”..!Look, gentlemen, you both suffer from the same myopic reasoning- you assume your particular Outlook is the only version of reality ANYONE should subscribe to. Bad move. You do realize that- you MIGHT BE WRONG?
Both in your assumptions, and the conclusions drawn thereof?No, you attack, in ridiculously juvenile language (Bill, if you’re old- f~~~ing act like it.) “Will- fully blind tradcon cuck”?
Because I shared a nice night with my kids…
Get out more, boys- maybe a nice game of Wiffleball would help.
Better The Corner Of A Rooftop....
For f~~~’s sake, did either of you actually read what I wrote- it was a nice moment with my kids.
But that’s just it: THEY ARE NOT YOUR KIDS.
You are not their father.
You are just the chump who pays the bills.
If you really understood MGTOW, if you really were a MGHOW, you’d know that. There’s hope that someday you might learn, but you clearly haven’t. And I’m afraid that it will be a very sharp, painful lesson for you. You will have to learn the hard way.
But for now you don’t understand Going Your Own Way. And you’re not Going Your Own Way. You’re just another tradcon MRA fool like Piggy Paul. And worse, you’re a selfish, manipulative tradcon MRA trying to shame and manipulate Men here into wasting their lives “keeping the wheels on the bus” for the sake of “your” children and their future.
That’s something c~~~s do, not Men.
For f~~~’s sake, did either of you actually read what I wrote- it was a nice moment with my kids.
But that’s just it: THEY ARE NOT YOUR KIDS.
You are not their father.
You are just the chump who pays the bills.
If you really understood MGTOW, if you really were a MGHOW, you’d know that. There’s hope that someday you might learn, but you clearly haven’t. And I’m afraid that it will be a very sharp, painful lesson for you. You will have to learn the hard way.
But for now you don’t understand Going Your Own Way. And you’re not Going Your Own Way. You’re just another tradcon MRA fool like Piggy Paul. And worse, you’re a selfish, manipulative tradcon MRA trying to shame and manipulate Men here into wasting their lives “keeping the wheels on the bus” for the sake of “your” children and their future.
That’s something c~~~s do, not Men.
More of that Super MGTOW B.S., Sidecar?
“IF you REALLY were a MGTOW…”What, is there a secret club? Who appointed you arbiter of who is and isn’t a MGTOW?
This super argument- that because of an unjust and s~~~ty system, THEY’RE NOT YOUR KIDS!
Fine, but then Sidecar-
It’s not your money (IRS)
It’s not your car( DMV, Police confiscation)
It’s not your house (Property tax)
It’s not your job
(State Licensure, HR tyranny)But I bet you still drive to work, doncha? Like that place you call “yours” doncha?
Not too MGTOW for those things, right?And as far as the wheels on the Bus, you fool- you’re FINE with OTHER men paving your roads, growing your food, Manning your fire Dept, etc, but YOU’RE too MGTOW to reciprocate? (Stop SHAMING AND MANIPULATING, ZV!)
And it’s not for the sake of “my” kids, Sidecar
(wait- you just said they aren’t mine- which is it?)
It’s for the sake of all of us. No one TRULY does it alone- get OVER it.
We are ALL dependent on the works of others. MGTOW is an IDEAL- a Platonic Form-
never a reality.And as far as-“something c~~~s do, not men”- what do YOU know of manhood, my friend?
Again- are YOU on the Board of MANHOOD too?MGTOW,Manhood- you’re the arbiter of it ALL!
Your MGTOW Virtue signaling is as tiresome as any SJW’s. Your perfect forms don’t exist. You are as subject to the State as any other man- do you flatter yourself that you have special, unique, secret King powers?
Gamma rage, indeed.
Meanwhile, as for the rest of you gentlemen, thanks. We’re all doing the best we can in this,”the best of all possible worlds”, right Bill?
Better The Corner Of A Rooftop....
MGTOW is an IDEAL- a Platonic Form-
never a reality.MGTOW aren’t real? Then why are you here?
This is why you aren’t a MGHOW. This is why you don’t understand. You don’t even know what reality is.
It’s like Piggy Paul all over again with his “married mgtow” bulls~~~.
No marriage. No cohabitation. NO CHILDREN.
That is the definition of MGTOW. That is what a MGHOW is. And that is not you.
You are a tradcuck MRA judas goat with MGTOW pretensions.
It’s not your job
Actually it is. Because it’s my company. And how do I know it’s my company? Because I can shut it down whenever I want.
Just you see what happens to you if you ever stop paying out (and cucking out) for “your” kids. That’s how we know they aren’t actually yours.
And as far as the wheels on the Bus, you fool- you’re FINE with OTHER men paving your roads,
I pay for that pavement.
growing your food,
Which I again pay for.
Manning your fire Dept,
And I pay for that too.
I pay my own way. What I don’t do is demand other Men sacrifice themselves to pay my way (or “my” children’s way) like a selfish bitch. And I sure as f~~~ don’t couch such c~~~ish demands with weasel words, shame, and manipulation.
You weren’t talking about roads or food or the fire department with your bus metaphor. You were talking about society. Our gynocentric society. You were talking about western civilization and how men need to sacrifice themselves to save it. You couched that demand with weasel words like “higher purpose” and other bulls~~~, but the message was clear: men need to sacrifice themselves to save civilization for “your” children’s future.
Well I have bad news for you, selfish little tradcuck. Haven’t you heard? “The future is female.” Which means there is no future. Western civilization is collapsing. The barbarians are at the gate (and inside the non-existent walls), and “your” children are f~~~ed. And nothing of value was lost. Because millions of Men like myself, real Men Going Our Own Ways, aren’t sacrificing ourselves any more to save civilization for children that aren’t ours. Because we weren’t stupid or cucked enough or cruel enough to create any.
I feel sorry for “your” children. I really do. They really are utterly screwed. You have selfishly doomed them.
But that is not my problem.
Your c~~~ish weasel words and shaming attempts and exhortations and manipulation aren’t going to change that. Men Going Their Own Way aren’t stupid enough to fall for that crap any more. All it does is show you aren’t a MGHOW. You don’t understand MGTOW. You’re something else entirely.
You say the future belongs to those who show up? Well the future is f~~~ed. The future is over. The future is a horrible thing to inflict on any child. MGTOW kindly don’t inflict the future on children. We do that by not having any.
Being able to enjoy the present unencumbered and unenslaved and uncucked is merely a side benefit.
Western civilization is collapsing.
Damn right it is, sidecar!
Whether the Elites are in on this and created the whole feminism movement, society is a wagon on fire heading down a steep hill. We either jump off, and bruise ourselves, or try to put the fire out. The worst thing we can do is feed this broken society even further. Yes, we all know it is ugly. This is reality. The best we can do is steer clear and warn others.
In other words:
FUBAR
The Hindu’s call this period “Kali Yuga”. It is apparently the worst of possible times we are living in.
A tranquil mind is neither happy nor sad, it is uninfluenced by external conditions.
MGTOW is an IDEAL- a Platonic Form-
never a reality.MGTOW aren’t real? Then why are you here?
This is why you aren’t a MGHOW. This is why you don’t understand. You don’t even know what reality is.
It’s like Piggy Paul all over again with his “married mgtow” bulls~~~.
No marriage. No cohabitation. NO CHILDREN.
That is the definition of MGTOW. That is what a MGHOW is. And that is not you.
You are a tradcuck MRA judas goat with MGTOW pretensions.
It’s not your job
Actually it is. Because it’s my company. And how do I know it’s my company? Because I can shut it down whenever I want.
Just you see what happens to you if you ever stop paying out (and cucking out) for “your” kids. That’s how we know they aren’t actually yours.
And as far as the wheels on the Bus, you fool- you’re FINE with OTHER men paving your roads,
I pay for that pavement.
growing your food,
Which I again pay for.
Manning your fire Dept,
And I pay for that too.
I pay my own way. What I don’t do is demand other Men sacrifice themselves to pay my way (or “my” children’s way) like a selfish bitch. And I sure as f~~~ don’t couch such c~~~ish demands with weasel words, shame, and manipulation.
You weren’t talking about roads or food or the fire department with your bus metaphor. You were talking about society. Our gynocentric society. You were talking about western civilization and how men need to sacrifice themselves to save it. You couched that demand with weasel words like “higher purpose” and other bulls~~~, but the message was clear: men need to sacrifice themselves to save civilization for “your” children’s future.
Well I have bad news for you, selfish little tradcuck. Haven’t you heard? “The future is female.” Which means there is no future. Western civilization is collapsing. The barbarians are at the gate (and inside the non-existent walls), and “your” children are f~~~ed. And nothing of value was lost. Because millions of Men like myself, real Men Going Our Own Ways, aren’t sacrificing ourselves any more to save civilization for children that aren’t ours. Because we weren’t stupid or cucked enough or cruel enough to create any.
I feel sorry for “your” children. I really do. They really are utterly screwed. You have selfishly doomed them.
But that is not my problem.
Your c~~~ish weasel words and shaming attempts and exhortations and manipulation aren’t going to change that. Men Going Their Own Way aren’t stupid enough to fall for that crap any more. All it does is show you aren’t a MGHOW. You don’t understand MGTOW. You’re something else entirely.
You say the future belongs to those who show up? Well the future is f~~~ed. The future is over. The future is a horrible thing to inflict on any child. MGTOW kindly don’t inflict the future on children. We do that by not having any.
Being able to enjoy the present unencumbered and unenslaved and uncucked is merely a side benefit.
Sidecar-nice try.
You’re not a rock, you’re not an island, and your moronic
“I paid for that” mantra is toddleresque in its absurdity. You pay for a PORTION- they’re not your employees. Without all of us working, it falls apart. Your words” line- nope. Plain as dirt. Truth generally is.And your company?
Try not paying your corporate taxes.And saying c~~~ish isn’t an argument; and you speak for all MGTOWS? Secret King, indeed.
Over 32k guys on this site- how many meet the Sidecar Standard? Most probably fail.But, they are learning.
And some have kids;
Kick them off? Purity spirals don’t end well.Here’s a tip- try some humility. None of us are perfect. Not even The Secret Kings.
Better The Corner Of A Rooftop....
Because we weren’t stupid or cucked enough or cruel enough to create any.
This reminds me of something, sidecar.
Here in Australia, back in 2002, I was in my final year of school and studying super hard. I use to study 6 hours per day (outside classroom hours), nearly every single day for that year. I applied to study Electrical Engineering, which the entry requirement was a minimum mark of 76. I got 82 and got in. Today, have a guess what that minimum entry mark is????
The minimum is now 95! Too much competition.
I do not have anything against people having kids. It is none of my business. I am grateful for this life, given to me by my parents. Unfortunately, s~~~ is hitting the fan. Sigh.
A tranquil mind is neither happy nor sad, it is uninfluenced by external conditions.
Jesus tap dancing Christ we have some anger issues.
Sidecar, I think you are misunderstanding ZV’s point. He isn’t advocating that men father children. However, when you divorce and have children, take joy in spending time with them.
Hell, how many men have found MGTOW after having kids? I know I did. I have a kid and would encourage dad’s to do what they can to foster and gird that relationship. Doing this is not telling men to go out and have kids without forewarning.
Heck, I’d caution men against having a child because of the socio-legal system. I wouldn’t castigate a man who did have children for later seeking a good relationship with their kids and encouraging others to do so.
You do us a disservice when you say
“No marriage. No cohabitation. NO CHILDREN.
That is the definition of MGTOW. That is what a MGHOW is. And that is not you.”
I understand your admonishments, but those who have made those choices/mistakes can still seek MGTOW. Your definition precludes nearly all men who are here. Who hasn’t co-habitated, married, or had children and participated in this forum? Many of our venerated posters have done this and we learn from them. The same can be done from ZV.
A co-worker recently told me, "If you want to see who someone really is, divorce them." I have found out how true this is. When your wife drops the façade of being the caring partner, you will witness all of the greed, hate, and spite that she has masked. It is truly breathtaking!
And lastly, the future belongs to those who show up for it. So, if you don’t care about anything other than yourself, that’s fine. Solipsism is great fun. But, ultimately, if enough men go that route, the wheels come off the bus, and we all sit poolside with Roissy, whatching our world pass, all because we let the wimmins push the Duluth model and get away with it.
So- the question now, is- what do you care about OUTSIDE of yourself? Aside from YOU, what gives life meaning and purpose? Remember, nihilism is the Abyss,and when you peer into the Abyss…
I understand it is better to have a positive mindset for things not in your control. However if there are things in my control that can let me avoid a negative outcome, or after weighting the statistic with the pro and cons, I should take charge of it instead of wishful thinking.
For the other question about the future.
If you cared and really think about it logically, you will want society to crash hard and painful that it leave a scar on humanity as long as possible.Why? Because the current society is harming your children and grandchildren and their decedents.
The current society is teaching your daughter to be a slut who waste her youth catching STD and become childless and use up whore which men no longer wants. Or be a single mom with 80% chance of your grandchildren end up in prison. Even if your daughter end up marrying a good man, or men. Society will brainwash her to divorce him for quick gratification, and squander her divorce money on frivolous things that she end up a miserable cat lady in old age.
And your daughter have a constantly diminishing pool men to choose from. The current statistic is 70% of men age 20 to 34 are not married.
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/bachelor-nation-70-men-aged-20-34-are-not-married
If the current society stands, what are the odds of your daughter having a happy ending? If she achieve the miracle odds, will your granddaughter too?The current society tries to turn your son into “daughter” The current society is trying to breed an idiot out of your son. Smart enough to do as told and stupid enough not to think. The current society tries to make your son a happy slave. Be happy being used as a human battery, divorce raping through no fault of his own, thrown in jail by false rape accusation. Then become another statistic in the homeless and suicide section. What chance your sons and grandsons can overcome the brainwashing and not being a statistic?
Even not being a statistic he have to pay for all the mistake of society, while his opportunities and livelihood diminished in a rotting society.For people who love their children and really thought about it, they won’t bring children to this rotting society.
If society crash so hard that it will in the memory of mankind for a long time, at least your grandchildren or great grandchildren may have a chance for a better life. At least until mankind forgets and repeat their mistake again.
I think why the early Christianity and Islam is very stern with women because s~~~ like this happen before. It should be no coincidence that all great civilization of the past rose to power with putting a leash on female nature. Whether is Asia or Middle East or West.
There is no magic in MGTOW, just recognition of the truth and logical decision how to avoid dangers. The red pill is but the truth, it is no magical potion. Do not think in this modern world men have no longer have natural enemies, men are prey to women and government.
And lastly, the future belongs to those who show up for it. So, if you don’t care about anything other than yourself, that’s fine. Solipsism is great fun. But, ultimately, if enough men go that route, the wheels come off the bus, and we all sit poolside with Roissy, whatching our world pass, all because we let the wimmins push the Duluth model and get away with it.
So- the question now, is- what do you care about OUTSIDE of yourself? Aside from YOU, what gives life meaning and purpose? Remember, nihilism is the Abyss,and when you peer into the Abyss…
I understand it is better to have a positive mindset for things not in your control. However if there are things in my control that can let me avoid a negative outcome, or after weighting the statistic with the pro and cons, I should take charge of it instead of wishful thinking.
For the other question about the future.
If you cared and really think about it logically, you will want society to crash hard and painful that it leave a scar on humanity as long as possible.Why? Because the current society is harming your children and grandchildren and their decedents.
The current society is teaching your daughter to be a slut who waste her youth catching STD and become childless and use up whore which men no longer wants. Or be a single mom with 80% chance of your grandchildren end up in prison. Even if your daughter end up marrying a good man, or men. Society will brainwash her to divorce him for quick gratification, and squander her divorce money on frivolous things that she end up a miserable cat lady in old age.
And your daughter have a constantly diminishing pool men to choose from. The current statistic is 70% of men age 20 to 34 are not married.
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/bachelor-nation-70-men-aged-20-34-are-not-married
If the current society stands, what are the odds of your daughter having a happy ending? If she achieve the miracle odds, will your granddaughter too?The current society tries to turn your son into “daughter” The current society is trying to breed an idiot out of your son. Smart enough to do as told and stupid enough not to think. The current society tries to make your son a happy slave. Be happy being used as a human battery, divorce raping through no fault of his own, thrown in jail by false rape accusation. Then become another statistic in the homeless and suicide section. What chance your sons and grandsons can overcome the brainwashing and not being a statistic?
Even not being a statistic he have to pay for all the mistake of society, while his opportunities and livelihood diminished in a rotting society.For people who love their children and really thought about it, they won’t bring children to this rotting society.
If society crash so hard that it will in the memory of mankind for a long time, at least your grandchildren or great grandchildren may have a chance for a better life. At least until mankind forgets and repeat their mistake again.
I think why the early Christianity and Islam is very stern with women because s~~~ like this happen before. It should be no coincidence that all great civilization of the past rose to power with putting a leash on female nature. Whether is Asia or Middle East or West.
Put that way, I agree with you; that being said-
All nations fall- do any learn?
Humans learn little from the past…
Better The Corner Of A Rooftop....
For f~~~’s sake, did either of you actually read what I wrote…
Yes I did. Did you?
Are you even aware of the Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm horses~~~ you’re peddling? Or the tired tradcon shaming tactics you’re using? Or your willful myopia?
You’re chastising men for choosing not to have children with these “future belongs to those how show up” and other shopworn homilies. Guess what? You don’t have children either. Those kids belong to your ex-wife, not you. Your time with them is some small crumb she and the system allow you to have. Furthermore, given the rates of paternity fraud, there’s a good chance one of more of them don’t share you DNA.
Keep whistling past the graveyard, you fool, and keep hoping it won’t happen to you.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
All nations fall- do any learn?
None have so far because men like you exist.
This time the cycle might, just might, be different.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
You’re chastising men for choosing not to have children with these “future belongs to those how show up” and other shopworn homilies. Guess what? You don’t have children either. Those kids belong to your ex-wife, not you. Your time with them is some small crumb she and the system allow you to have. Furthermore, given the rates of paternity fraud, there’s a good chance one of more of them don’t share you DNA.
I think you’re over exaggerating this a bit. You are correct that there are still many many disadvantages to be a father today, compared to what it could be and what it has been in the past. And very much yes, some men’s are treated like s~~~ as fathers. However, many of us have a lot bigger role in the lives of our kids. I don’t think that should be thrown away as nothing for those of us that have that. I’m not saying those of us that have that should be blind and believe everything is hunky dory either.
As far as their being a good chance the kids aren’t his (or really, my kids aren’t my own), I don’t know what ‘good chance’ means, nor do I see the point of trying to bring doubt in the mind of a father suggesting that his kids aren’t his own when you know absolutely nothing about his (or my) situation.
Keep whistling past the graveyard, you fool, and keep hoping it won’t happen to you.
What the hell is ‘it’? The man is already is divorced and plans not to get involved with women again. Sure, things could absolutely turn south with his relationship to his kids, but that’s is not dependent on whether or not he choses to enjoy his time with his kids. What are his options? Disown his children, leave the country and pretend it never happened? Are you suggesting that MGTOW means that every father should leave his kids, so that ‘it’ doesn’t happen to them? Or perhaps they should just remain in redpill rage or something similar, because enjoying your time with kids means that you consent to any wrong that was done to you?
And I am not at all recommending that single men should have kids or cohabitate. I certainly am not suggesting that fathers are better men, or have more of a stake in the future or anything like that. I personally am not going to fill like s~~~ because I like spending time with my kids and being a father to them, even if it’s not in the full capacity I would like it to be.
Ok. Then do it.
What the hell is ‘it’? The man is already is divorced and plans not to get involved with women again. Sure, things could absolutely turn south with his relationship to his kids, but that’s is not dependent on whether or not he choses to enjoy his time with his kids. What are his options? Disown his children, leave the country and pretend it never happened? Are you suggesting that MGTOW means that every father should leave his kids, so that ‘it’ doesn’t happen to them? Or perhaps they should just remain in redpill rage or something similar, because enjoying your time with kids means that you consent to any wrong that was done to you?
And I am not at all recommending that single men should have kids or cohabitate. I certainly am not suggesting that fathers are better men, or have more of a stake in the future or anything like that. I personally am not going to fill like s~~~ because I like spending time with my kids and being a father to them, even if it’s not in the full capacity I would like it to be.
You have written very well exactly what I was thinking. As I am currently dealing with an issue, I was just not in the right frame of mind to put it as well. Good post.
The evil in women’s hearts leaves them no moral bounds as to inhibit them from descending to the lowest levels of darkness to acquire their self entitled desires.
Anonymous3The original definition of MGTOW, as I read somewhere, was when some MRA’s complained that men would not work together to achieve “one purpose”. And that each one was Going His Own Way!
Obviously the guy saying this was thinking everyone should go His Way…
But all men have their own ideas. That is why MRA is doomed to fail.
So what constitutes MGTOW? If it is not a movement, if every man is Going His Own Way, what do these men share?
I would say: “they share the need for truth”.
This place give us the possibility to to discuss subjects that cannot be discussed elsewhere.
But can we discuss things without causing conflicts?
There are obviously intellectual and philosophic conflicts. There are obviously subjects that we have emotional attachments.
What, in my opinion, should not happen is that we turn these discussions into personal conflicts. Attack the ideas, but not the man. If the man is too attached to his ideas, then its his problem.
If we throw a man a punch, will he not throw one back?
I personal learned a lot from this thread. I would thank Sidecar and Old Bill for their usual brilliance.
But that does not mean I enjoyed it. Can we have philosophical corrections without calling a man Judas? Because that will not bode well for the subject afterwards.
Wisely put, Clu.
I came here to learn and share. If attacked, I retaliate. If corrected by someone wiser than myself, I appreciate and thank them.
This thread started with a simple story of a pleasant evening. No grand statement, no profound truth. I was enjoying my night, is all.
The sad thing is, Bill and Sidecar think they are teaching me something I don’t know. They weren’t.
Everyone else, yourself included, has taken a conversational tone. We can all share and learn that way.
(And, as an aside, I’d say “brilliance” doesn’t require bluster…)
Better The Corner Of A Rooftop....
However, many of us have a lot bigger role in the lives of our kids.
You only have as large a role as you’re currently allowed to have. Your ex-wife and courts can change your role in an instant without any input from you. You should not forget that.
I don’t think that should be thrown away as nothing for those of us that have that.
Whether that role thrown away or not isn’t up to you and how you fulfill that role counts for nothing when any decision is made. You should not forget that.
I’m not saying those of us that have that should be blind and believe everything is hunky dory either.
You mean like ZombieVader posting paeans to the whiffle ball games his wife and courts allow him to play?
As far as their being a good chance the kids aren’t his (or really, my kids aren’t my own), I don’t know what ‘good chance’ means…
In Russian Roulette, you’ve about a 17% chance of catching the bullet. Is that a “good enough chance” for you not to play Russian Roulette?
As far as paternity fraud goes, studies in North America using blood types alone suggest a 30% chance of the man on the birth certificate not being the actual father of the child on the birth certificate. Is that a “good enough chance” not to believe the child you’re being legally crucified for and the child being used as a weapon against you might not be your own?
Or would you rather act like Dr. Pangloss and pretend it’s all for the best?
… nor do I see the point of trying to bring doubt in the mind of a father suggesting that his kids aren’t his own when you know absolutely nothing about his (or my) situation.
Not All Fathers Are Like That? “You don’t know me?” Really? Those are your arguments? The numbers don’t lie and the way fathers are treated is well documented. Why is it then that you insist on thinking that your experience is somehow special or will remain special?
What the hell is ‘it’?
“It” refers to the situation ZombieVader is gushing over; the pleasures of fatherhood. “It” can change in an instant and without his approval.
The man is already is divorced and plans not to get involved with women again.
Good for him. As an example however, that’s like a smoker giving up cigarettes after he’s developed lung cancer.
The men shouldn’t follow ZombieVader’s example because they shouldn’t marry in the first place. The fact that he is allowed to enjoy a few pleasures doesn’t obviate the bad choices he made or the consequences which followed.
Sure, things could absolutely turn south with his relationship to his kids, but that’s is not dependent on whether or not he choses to enjoy his time with his kids.
Exactly. Nothing his dependent on him. That’s where you and he fail to comprehend the situation. ZombieVader should enjoy what little time he spends with the children he may have fathered. What he shouldn’t do is hold those moments up as some sort of goal for other men.
Men like you and he are negative examples. Whether or not you’re able to wring a little joy out of the catastrophe of your lives is moot. The catastrophic result of your own decisions is the primary example you hold for other men and not the fact that you are still allowed a few pleasurable hours with some children.
When a prisoner writes about the joy he has from being allowed to walk in the prison yard, we must always remember that he’s in prison/. He – and you – need to remember that the bars still exist.
What are his options? Disown his children, leave the country and pretend it never happened? Are you suggesting that MGTOW means that every father should leave his kids, so that ‘it’ doesn’t happen to them?
Right to the extreme example, huh? Beautiful binary thinking on your part. Just black and white, either or, up down, one or zero. No nuances, no comprehension, no understanding. Something I wrote must have really hurt you for you to abandon reason.
Or perhaps they should just remain in redpill rage or something similar, because enjoying your time with kids means that you consent to any wrong that was done to you?
Of course not, just as you and ZombieVader shouldn’t remain willfully ignorant of the consequences of you choices. When enjoying your time in the prison yard, you two still need to remain aware that you’re in prison by your own choice.
And I am not at all recommending that single men should have kids or cohabitate. I certainly am not suggesting that fathers are better men, or have more of a stake in the future or anything like that.
You’re not suggesting any of those things, but ZombieVader most certainly did in his replies to Sidecar. Put aside your wounded feelings for a moment and re-read his posts, #801225 and #802010 especially.
I personally am not going to fill like s~~~ because I like spending time with my kids and being a father to them, even if it’s not in the full capacity I would like it to be.
I’m not saying you should. I am saying you should remain aware of the reality of the situation, especially the fleeting nature of the situation. As such, you shouldn’t hold the situation out to other men as something which is either a goal or desirable.
There’s a famous floor mosaic in Pompeii. It’s in what we would now call a dining room and it depicts what known is as a memento mori. The mosaic depicts a skull hanging by a thread. Below it is a butterfly resting on a wheel which can turn towards good fortune or bad. The thread can break at any moment signifying the end of life while the tiny movements of the butterfly can turn the wheel towards either good fortune or bad.
The mosaic is a caution on of the vagaries of life and reminder to meditate on the certainty of your death. It embodies the Stoic principle that, even when you’re experiencing joy, you must take care to place it in it’s proper context.
ZombieVader is willfully blind. He’s using a few fleeting moments with what I hope are his children to ignore the consequences of his prior bad choices and his treatment by society. He has even gone as far to suggest that the existence of those children excuse all his prior bad choices and his treatment by society. That’s pathetic.
The idea that men must voluntarily enslave themselves to society which holds them in profound contempt and treats them as disposable is the hallmark of a tradcon cuck. It has no place here.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
There are many reasons why his contact with his children could be cut off abruptly and with no warning. For example, the need of the mother for more money, he fails to send it even though it’s more than the court order.
Another is she wants to move due to a job relocation or new love interest.
Even a new love interest is enough for her to eliminate his contact with his children.
Good luck getting the court to give you consideration in a custody case. What’s good for mom is good for the best interest of the children.
Children belong to women.
I’m saying it, having been there.
If you have children and divorce, walk away.
Go your own way.
Your children will be better off not suffering the mental abuse that the conflict of divorce and likely parental alienation brings.
It’s well documented, children of divorce do much worse than children from intact families.
You and your ex will be better off too. It seems counter intuitive but eventually you’ll see the truth.
Then try to reconnect as adults.
It’s tough medicine to swallow. The Red Pill usually is.
#icethemout; Remember Thomas Ball. He died for your children.
You only have as large a role as you’re currently allowed to have. Your ex-wife and courts can change your role in an instant without any input from you. You should not forget that.
Enjoying the moment doesn’t mean you’re forgetting the situation you’re in. That’s like saying if you’re enjoying a ride on a motorcycle, you must think you’re completely safe. It also doesn’t mean the rider is communicating to others that it’s completely safe.
I’m not saying those of us that have that should be blind and believe everything is hunky dory either.
You mean like ZombieVader posting paeans to the whiffle ball games his wife and courts allow him to play?
I didn’t interpreted it that way, and I don’t think that was his intention.
As far as their being a good chance the kids aren’t his (or really, my kids aren’t my own), I don’t know what ‘good chance’ means…
In Russian Roulette, you’ve about a 17% chance of catching the bullet. Is that a “good enough chance” for you not to play Russian Roulette?
As far as paternity fraud goes, studies in North America using blood types alone suggest a 30% chance of the man on the birth certificate not being the actual father of the child on the birth certificate. Is that a “good enough chance” not to believe the child you’re being legally crucified for and the child being used as a weapon against you might not be your own?
Or would you rather act like Dr. Pangloss and pretend it’s all for the best?
I honestly didn’t know the stats, and thanks for providing them. They are not good. But obviously, different circumstance are going to change those odds drastically, depending on the relative character of the mother and what level of freedom she has. For example, I would think the odds are much higher in the case of a frequently deployed soldier.
… nor do I see the point of trying to bring doubt in the mind of a father suggesting that his kids aren’t his own when you know absolutely nothing about his (or my) situation.
Not All Fathers Are Like That? “You don’t know me?” Really? Those are your arguments? The numbers don’t lie and the way fathers are treated is well documented. Why is it then that you insist on thinking that your experience is somehow special or will remain special?
No, my point was that in some case, a father doesn’t really care about knowing whether the kids are his or not. My kids are 11 and 14. If I found out today that they are not mind, I would not want to change my relationship with them. It’s not about being special or anything like that.
What the hell is ‘it’?
“It” refers to the situation ZombieVader is gushing over; the pleasures of fatherhood. “It” can change in an instant and without his approval.
That doesn’t make sense in context, since you implied It was a bad thing. I guess you meant It was losing access to your kids?
The man is already is divorced and plans not to get involved with women again.
Good for him. As an example however, that’s like a smoker giving up cigarettes after he’s developed lung cancer.
The men shouldn’t follow ZombieVader’s example because they shouldn’t marry in the first place. The fact that he is allowed to enjoy a few pleasures doesn’t obviate the bad choices he made or the consequences which followed.
I don’t think he suggestion anyone should follow his example. I don’t think the cigarette analogy holds true because the smoker can only end up in a worse place or at best the same place after quitting. A father ends up in a different place. In other words, you can enjoy being a non-smoker whether you smoked or never smoked before. You can’t be a father if you never had kids. Again, not saying anyone should strive to be a father for that reason.
Sure, things could absolutely turn south with his relationship to his kids, but that’s is not dependent on whether or not he choses to enjoy his time with his kids.
Exactly. Nothing his dependent on him. That’s where you and he fail to comprehend the situation. ZombieVader should enjoy what little time he spends with the children he may have fathered. What he shouldn’t do is hold those moments up as some sort of goal for other men.
I don’t see that he did hold it up as goal for other men. Mentioning a happy moment is not the same as saying ‘be like me’. It’s as if you’re saying enjoy your time, but keep it a secret.
Men like you and he are negative examples. Whether or not you’re able to wring a little joy out of the catastrophe of your lives is moot. The catastrophic result of your own decisions is the primary example you hold for other men and not the fact that you are still allowed a few pleasurable hours with some children.
I never claimed to be a positive example, at least in terms of my former marriage. Although I will say I get a lot of joy out of my kids and don’t consider my life a catastrophe.
When a prisoner writes about the joy he has from being allowed to walk in the prison yard, we must always remember that he’s in prison/. He – and you – need to remember that the bars still exist.
I am not a prisoner, though I admittedly don’t have as much freedom as you. I have not forgotten where I stand though, and I won’t apologize for taking joy in my life.
What are his options? Disown his children, leave the country and pretend it never happened? Are you suggesting that MGTOW means that every father should leave his kids, so that ‘it’ doesn’t happen to them?
Right to the extreme example, huh? Beautiful binary thinking on your part. Just black and white, either or, up down, one or zero. No nuances, no comprehension, no understanding. Something I wrote must have really hurt you for you to abandon reason.
Odd that you’d say I’ve gone to extreme while you feel comfortable saying that my life is a catastrophe.
I went to the extreme, because I didn’t see where you left any room for middle ground. Is the answer you want that a Dad should enjoy his kids, but think of himself as prisoner and a failure, never speak of the fun times with kids so that no one accidently interprets that as an example to follow? That seems extreme to me.
Or perhaps they should just remain in redpill rage or something similar, because enjoying your time with kids means that you consent to any wrong that was done to you?
Of course not, just as you and ZombieVader shouldn’t remain willfully ignorant of the consequences of you choices. When enjoying your time in the prison yard, you two still need to remain aware that you’re in prison by your own choice.
I don’t know why you’re assuming I or ZV is willfully ignorant.
I have to run now unfortunately…can’t comment any further.
Ok. Then do it.
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