Tagged: Friends Zone, golddiger, Lisa-Snowdon
This topic contains 64 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by 
corkwonder 3 years, 7 months ago.
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So if you want to avoid the friend zone, take the loss and move on
Men should stop considering a “loss” for them at all. What is he losing, really? What’s the BEST thing that happens when a woman doesn’t “reject” him?
A simple sex act and a possible pregnancy – or an STD.
When guys are devastated by “rejection”, I want to shake them by the shoulders. After a while, the topic frienzone/rejection gets hilarious, really quickly.
Top Gun movie was on in the background a few days ago, and Tom Cruise sings a song to her very badly. She says she’s never seen that “approach” before. ( i hate that word too)…… and he says the last time he tried it, he “crashed and burned”.
Crashed and burned.
Talk about building up female “rejection” to an unrealistic extreme – like it’s equal to “crashing and burning” and going down in flames in an F14. You could almost hold that movie (and Paramount Pictures) responsible for the entire mentality of guys everywhere who think of it as a loss.
The other demographic responsible for this s~~~ is women themselves — pretending like a a “no” from her is a tragedy. So he didn’t throw away money on a drink, a meal or hours of his time and attention away listening to her hopes and dreams and s~~~ about golden retriever puppies all night. Big whoop.
The loss was pausing for a minute to even bother with her at all.
Women don’t bring enough to the table to be hollowed out by it.When it’s actually more of a BENEFIT to not get involved/married to the wrong woman at all, friend-zoning (and female rejection) becomes a joke.
“DUDE YOU TOTALLY CRASHED AND BURNED, MAN!!!!”
“You’re right. I’m just devastated that she couldn’t get her claws into my house or falsely accuse me of rape. How will I ever survive the loss.”
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Promoting abstinence is merely promoting one method over others.
Promoting abstinence over proper sex education and self defense comes from a groundless belief that people can and should be perfected rather than a recognition and acceptance of the natural contrainsts that govern human behavior. See Sowell’s _A Conflict of Visions_ for more details on the constrained vs. unconstrained view. Abstinence education leads to more pregnancies as well as the guilt and shame that comes when people try to deny their nature and inevitably fail.
You are trying to argue against my goal oriented position with a method oriented analogy. It doesn’t work that way.
This is the very heart of the unconstrained view… that there is some form of idealized behavor that we should strive to achieve rather than working within the unavoidable constraints of reality. Rather than bettering ourselves through a series of increasingly effective, practical steps, the unconstrained view sets the goal posts at a point which is essentially unreachable from the current position, setting the individual up for failure and its attending guilt and shame, ultimately leading to backsliding and doubling down on the ineffective behavior once failure is apparent.
Trust me, abandoning desire has nothing whatsoever to do with abstinence. Quite the opposite.
It was a similee.
But you do actually stop using electricity to wire a 220 line into the house mains.
Don’t be an ass. You turn off the power to the box, if you can, just long enough to get your lines in so that you can use the power. That’s not “stop using electricity”, that’s taking safety precautions. And you can’t always do that. Trust me, I know.
Let me try to be more clear. “Abandon desire and stop approaching women.” is your prescription to avoiding the friend zone. The operative effect is that if you don’t want women and never make any effort to get one, you can never be rejected in the first place and you wouldn’t put yourself in a potiion to try again with the same woman and subsequently be continuously rejected while being used for attention and resources, which is the definition of the friend zone.
I agree completely that if you could have no desire for women, this would be 100% effective. I have no desire to shoot elephants so I will never buy an elephant gun, get on an airplane to Africa, get into a jeep, track down an elephant, attempt to shoot it and then get trampled when I miss. Likewise, if I never drive a car, I’ll never get a speeding ticket and if I never bite into an apple, I’ll never eat a sour one.
“Stop wanting the things you want and the lack of them can never hurt you…” may sound deep and meaningful to dippy broads in a yoga class, but that’s not wisdom, that’s avoidance. What if I want to shoot an elephant but don’t want to get trampled? What if I want to drive but don’t want to get a speeding ticket? What if I love apples but want to learn how to avoid the unripe ones? What then? Your answer is simply “don’t” but it’s not practical. In fact, it’s meaningless. The only people who possibly CAN “don’t” are the people who NEVER WOULD ANYWAY.
Do you see what I’m getting at? Telling people who want to have women in their lives but avoid the friend zone that they should not have women in their lives is absurd. You may as well tell them to “mambo bananapatch” because at least that would be funny and wouldn’t make you look like a fool.
“Doctor, it hurts when I do THIS…” “Well then don’t do THIS.” is a great joke, but it’s just a joke, not sage medical wisdom for the ages.
Women don’t bring enough to the table to be hollowed out by it.
It can wreck the good, virtuous—but naive—young man’s ego when, after he’s spent the little of his life trying to be the best man he can be and, through his efforts, he gets every single aspect of his life in place, to feel painfully the one aspect where it’s lacking—that is, female company; and, in addition, to see the worst of man—the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the abusers—easily getting what he wants. What’s he to think?
Quite frequently, he thinks that there’s something wrong him. Why is it that these men have such an easy time with women, but I, who am so good in other aspects of my life, can’t? There must be something wrong with me.
Such was I, but no longer. Though I still think it would be nice to have a woman or two in my life, I realize, when I consider the men that women actually find attractive, that a woman’s liking me or not says absolutely nothing about me as a man.
A woman wouldn’t recognize a good man even if he slapped her in the face with his c~~~.
". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée
Lmao the sad thing is a lot of guys fall for it
1) Because they have natural desire for female companionship
2) Because they blame the women when they fail to get it
3) Because they don’t take responsibility for their own outcomes
4) Because nobody has ever told them “here’s how to get what you desire while avoiding what is undesirable”When the only advice you give a young man is “keep it in your pants” you condemn him to a life of failure and enslavement. The real tragedy here is not that women gain advantage over men but that wiser men do not equip less experienced men with the knowledge and skills they need to get what they want and avoid being taken advantage of.
This is why I am so sick of hearing people say s~~~ like “women are evil and you should avoid them at all costs” and “society is corrupt so you should withdraw from it”. Disseminating such “advice” is defeatist, unenlightened and, ultimately ineffective… not to mention unethical.
It’s like telling a fish that it can avoid polluted waters by learning to fly and then shaming it when it’s fins don’t magically turn into wings.
I remember when I tried having female “friends” when I was younger.
Remember, if you’re hoping to f~~~ them, they’re not really “friends”, just girls you’re trying (and failing) to f~~~.
Look back at your history and be honest with yourself… go back and look at each girl you claimed was your friend and honestly answer to yourself “Was I trying to get with her?” If the answer is “yes” then the problem wasn’t her, it was you.
You can’t blame a woman for accepting your attention and resources any more than you can kick a cat for drinking the milk out of a saucer you put down. That’s their nature. The fault lies with men who are lying to themselves about their behaviors and expectations and blaming other people for their undesirable outcomes.
I’ve got several female friends and they are either women I don’t want to f~~~ or women I’ve already f~~~ed and don’t want to f~~~ any more. Because of this, I treat them the same as I’d treat men and expect no more or less from them as I would a man. Those who are able to hold up their end of the friendship get to stick around, those who can’t, don’t… just like with men.
Men should stop considering a “loss” for them at all. What is he losing, really? What’s the BEST thing that happens when a woman doesn’t “reject” him? A simple sex act and possible pregnancy…
When I say “take the loss” I mean it like when you’re fishing and you get a nibble and you go to set the hook and the fish takes your bait. You can say “What would you get if you caught that fish, a simple meal and maybe a stomach infection?” but it’s disingenuous.
What you’re really saying is “You shouldn’t be fishing.” which is, to a man who enjoys fishing as well as scaling, gutting, frying and eating what he catches, pretty much the same as saying “Your desires and enjoyments are stupid and wrong.”
To which he would rightfully say “go f~~~ yourself”.
Now, for a man who is starving, not catching that fish could be a death sentence… and I think we would all agree that if someone is attached to women and sex to this degree, they’ve got a serious problem that is MUCH bigger than whether or not a woman rejected them. But that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about sport f~~~ing. You’re MGTOW… you’re not starving for sex or female companionship… but if you see a woman you want, you don’t just sit there and hope she’ll come hop into your lap nor do you steel yourself up and put your entire sense of self-worth on the line by asking her to be yours.
You treat her like you’d treat a steak… you order exactly what you want and if you get it, great! You’re having steak. If you don’t, you send it back and walk out. You don’t pitch a fit, you don’t threaten a lawsuit, you don’t storm back into the kitchen and brandish a knife, you don’t go on Yelp and whine about the crap service you got and you DEFINITELY don’t go telling everyone that steak sucks and anyone who wants one is an idiot.
That’s about as anti-MGTOW a response to not getting what you want as I can imagine. We’re men, god dammit, not a bunch of whining, blame and shame sour grapers.
I treat them the same as I’d treat men and expect no more or less from them as I would a man. Those who are able to hold up their end of the friendship get to stick around, those who can’t, don’t… just like with men.
Thing is, back then, I treated every single one of them as I would a man. So it’s not my fault in any way they rejected my advancements to further the friendships and try to do more things with them.
They just naturally ignored me like I’m ignoring women now. Having female “friends” for me is nothing more than a burden. It doesn’t benefit my life in any way.
Once you have a Fleshlight real vaginas become worthless.
Anonymous11It can wreck the good, virtuous—but naive—young man’s ego when, after he’s spent the little of his life trying to be the best man he can be and, through his efforts, he gets every single aspect of his life in place, to feel painfully the one aspect where it’s lacking—that is, female company; and, in addition, to see the worst of man—the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the abusers—easily getting what he wants. What’s he to think?
These days mgtow.com is what he should think.
Having female “friends” for me is nothing more than a burden.
They are. They really are, and I have a select few. Just like Doc, ones I’d never f~~~ in a million years, and ones I’ve f~~~ed but would never again in a million years. It’s natural to desire female companionship and nothing to be ashamed. It’s not my problem 98.5% are narcissistic and materialistic.
. It’s not my problem 98.5% are narcissistic and materialistic.
Most of them are. They only think of themselves and what can benefit them. I can’t stand to be around most women as it is simply because most of them are self-entitled c~~~s.
I try to avoid all women outside of work/family.
Once you have a Fleshlight real vaginas become worthless.
Thing is, back then, I treated every single one of them as I would a man. So it’s not my fault in any way they rejected my advancements to further the friendships and try to do more things with them.
Have you ever heard the phrase “There are no females on the internet.” What it meant was that when you removed the special privilege of people knowing you are female (and expecting something because of it) then everyone was equal… but when a female would preface anything she said by “as a female, I think…” then she was claiming that privilege for herself and her utterances would be received accordingly.
So if you did treat these women like men and they still did not want to be your friends, then you can’t say “female friends”… because that affords them special privilege. You can only say “There were some people who wanted to be my friends and some who did not.” at which point there is no fault to be had and nothing further to say about it.
Now, if you want to make the point that the women in your life expected that your friendship granted them privileges that you would not grant to a man, in other words that they expected you to shower them with time, attention and treasure AS THOUGH you were trying to f~~~ them, even though you were not, then you could make the argument that you feel it is NOT POSSIBLE to be friends with a woman because they do not know what friendship is.
I’m perfectly willing to entertain that notion, though it is not the idea I got from your original post.
Men should stop considering a “loss” for them at all. What is he losing, really? What’s the BEST thing that happens when a woman doesn’t “reject” him? A simple sex act and possible pregnancy…
When I say “take the loss” I mean it like when you’re fishing and you get a nibble and you go to set the hook and the fish takes your bait. You can say “What would you get if you caught that fish, a simple meal and maybe a stomach infection?” but it’s disingenuous.
What you’re really saying is “You shouldn’t be fishing.” which is, to a man who enjoys fishing as well as scaling, gutting, frying and eating what he catches, pretty much the same as saying “Your desires and enjoyments are stupid and wrong.”
To which he would rightfully say “go f~~~ yourself”.
Now, for a man who is starving, not catching that fish could be a death sentence… and I think we would all agree that if someone is attached to women and sex to this degree, they’ve got a serious problem that is MUCH bigger than whether or not a woman rejected them. But that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about sport f~~~ing. You’re MGTOW… you’re not starving for sex or female companionship… but if you see a woman you want, you don’t just sit there and hope she’ll come hop into your lap nor do you steel yourself up and put your entire sense of self-worth on the line by asking her to be yours.
You treat her like you’d treat a steak… you order exactly what you want and if you get it, great! You’re having steak. If you don’t, you send it back and walk out. You don’t pitch a fit, you don’t threaten a lawsuit, you don’t storm back into the kitchen and brandish a knife, you don’t go on Yelp and whine about the crap service you got and you DEFINITELY don’t go telling everyone that steak sucks and anyone who wants one is an idiot.
That’s about as anti-MGTOW a response to not getting what you want as I can imagine. We’re men, god dammit, not a bunch of whining, blame and shame sour grapers.
Well said Doc, well said.
Your approach to MGTOW is very much in line where I am settling on the spectrum at this age and stage (divorced, late – mid 30s). I tried the traditional feminist rhetoric of treating them as equal adults in a relationship – guess what, it did not work.
I am older now, more aware, and more comfortable in my own skin then I was almost a decade ago. I have shrugged off most of societies brainwashing. I still have great sexual urges, but my self worth is not tied to the pursuit. I enjoy the pursuit very much, but if it does not payout I do not take it too personally. Attractive pussy is in no great shortage. As I grow older my SMV increases and I get propositioned by younger and hotter women without trying. I know they only want my resources – but baiting the hook is all it usually takes to make the panties drop.
Once both parties are having a willing, consensual good time – why not? Protection is always used and I am going to schedule a deactivation. Like any sport, risk is inherent. I cave dive; one of the riskiest sports – if I f~~~ up or a piece of equipment fails I’m dead. Sport f~~~ing is a fare lessor risk if you take the appropriate precautions – recorded consent, protection, deactivation.
- Marriage is described as an institution. You would have to be crazy to be commited to it. -"If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal. Not people or things" Albert Einstein
I’m perfectly willing to entertain that notion, though it is not the idea I got from your original post.
The point was from my original post, is that I tried being friends with women in the same way I tried to be friends with other men. Even with my lack of social skills, I had no problem making friends who were men. Women on the other hand? All they did was give me the cold shoulder any time I tried to do things with them the same as I would any other man.
Most women and men can’t be long-term “friends” with each other unless the men the women are interacting with are blue pill men. For me, this is especially true.
If I were to try to keep those friendships going till this day, I’d of have to turn into a complete mangina by doing so.
For me, it’s not worth it to try and form friendships with women. Whenever a man even tries to approach women, all they think about is “this guy is trying to have sex with me/or date me” that’s all that goes through their heads.
Once you have a Fleshlight real vaginas become worthless.
Promoting abstinence over proper sex education and self defense comes from a groundless belief that people can and should be perfected rather than a recognition and acceptance of the natural contrainsts that govern human behavior.
Which is entirely irrelevant, because that comparison to sex education is not apt.
This is the very heart of the unconstrained view… that there is some form of idealized behavor that we should strive to achieve rather than working within the unavoidable constraints of reality.
But I am not talking about behaviors, idealized or otherwise. I am talking about goals and objectives, wants and needs. And not idealized goals etc., but pragmatic ones.
Desire is not a behavior. It might motivate behavior, but it is not a behavior itself. Desire promotes goals, often costly goals, but does not dictate methods or terms. People often say that money is the root of evil, but that’s not true. Money is just money. It’s the desire for money that
is the root of evil. And that’s because desire, whether it’s for material goods or sexual congress or anything else, on a practical level confuses wants for needs and ignores costs.You eliminate desire by looking through desire to recognize the difference between your wants and needs and to identifying the costs for supplying those wants. To put it another way, an inexperienced man may see an attractive woman and simply desire to have sex with her. And he will incur all sorts of unnecessary costs pursuing that goal. An experienced man will see the same woman and also see her greed, her vapid personality, her inconstancy, her whiny voice, her obnoxious friends, and so on. He will also know that such women are a dime a dozen and so this specific one is not worth his effort. Or any effort. And so he does not want her. He has eliminated his desire for her before he ever even had any. Now he may still have sex with her if she propositions it, or he may decline her offer, but he’s not going to pursue it or her.
So to make an apt comparison to sex education, telling students to eliminate desire isn’t insisting on abstinence. That would be telling them to have desire but refuse to act on it – and that will never work. Telling students to eliminate desire is more like the part of each course where you take the boys aside, show them the STD horror show presentation, tell them how much and how long child support will cost them, explain to them that pregnancy is nothing but a boon to women and a burden for them, and then ask them: “Now are you really sure you want to risk going at it without a condom?” Because the biggest part of eliminating desire is facing reality.
To use a popular idiom eliminating desire is thinking with your big head instead of feeling with your little head. Your c~~~ desires. Your brain considers.
And that’s why I say don’t even approach women. Because if you don’t approach them, then they will approach you. Women have their own desires after all, and are nowhere near as capable of eliminating their desires as men are. Not all of them will approach, but the ones that do approach you will be a sure thing should you decide to accept it. And the ones that don’t approach would not have been worth pursuing anyways.
See eliminating desire for women is not the same thing as abstinence. Far from it. Eliminating desire generally results in a man getting more sex overall because he doesn’t waste time or effort on vain pursuit. More importantly, whatever sex he has, or chooses not to have, is entirely on his own terms.
Don’t be an ass.
Then don’t be a fool.
Only a fool calls advice he doesn’t understand “worthless”, and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you misunderstand what I am saying here instead of disagreeing with it.
For me, it’s not worth it to try and form friendships with women. Whenever a man even tries to approach women, all they think about is “this guy is trying to have sex with me/or date me” that’s all that goes through their heads.
Fair enough. I would say that it’s not unreasonable for women at or above a certain level of physical desirability to see all male advances as sexual in nature, whether they are or not.
But I am not talking about behaviors, idealized or otherwise. I am talking about goals and objectives, wants and needs. And not idealized goals etc., but pragmatic ones.
The distinction between motivation and behavior is an illusion. Behaviors without motivation are meaningless to the agent and motivation without behavior is useless to the agent. The two go hand in hand.
You first state that youre not talking about behaviors but really that is all you are talking about. You talk about mastery of desire but then boil the whole thing down to “dont chase them, make them chase you” which is nothing more than simplistic PUA strategy.
See eliminating desire for women is not the same thing as abstinence.
But it is.
The removal of desire that you recommend, aside from being impossible, would perforce remove the behavior as well. A person who truly has no desire to form relationships with women will simply not do so… in which case advising a person who wants to have relationships yet avoid the pitfalls of relationships to dispense with their desire to have relationships is not meaningful advice.
True elimination of desire would result in a man not only not approaching women but also in him not responding to their approach. So I can only assume you mean to suggest that a man should PRETEND to have no disire in order to increase his sexual marketplace value and thereby attract women to him… I suppose just for the purpose of saving a few bucks on dinner and drinks because none of this would change any of the factors about any given woman (her s~~~ty friends, shrill voice, etc) which you proposed should engender disgust and disinterest in him toward her in the first place.
Here is my bottom line. If a guy wants to get with a girl and avoid finding himself expending his resources on a protracted and ultimately hopeless campaign, he needs to identify the conditions that define success and failure, take quick and decisive action to achieve his objective and accept the outcome without question.
Your advice to think of the woman as a piece of s~~~ unworthy of any effort or even desire in the first place, do nothing, then go ahead and f~~~ her when she falls into your lap sounds like something Roosh V and Tucker Max concocted over a half dozen pitchers of beer.
Anonymous2Sometimes the guys they put in the friend zone are backups. It seems most of them are manginas who they would never date, but like to use to get things out of them. Guys that will buy them nice birthday gifts and buy them dinner as a “hangout time” thing, and guys that they can go crying to about their problems and use as emotional tampons. The bottom line is women look at men as “What can I get out of him?” If you’re a beta, then she will keep you around for what she knows she can use you for, which is somebody to get dinners and gifts out of, and somebody that she can take out her emotions on and then make her feel better by saying to her “You’re too good for him, you should leave him, etc.” She has no intention of leaving the bad boy. She just needs a mangina to stroke her ego for her. The fact that she can have these mangina simps anytime she wants makes them undesirable, and instead she uses them to reaffirm to herself that she is still desirable.
It’s kind of like the way you see good looking women that hang out with fat friends all the time. They want to be the center of attention among their group. It’s an ego thing. Women need to be constantly reassured of their value.
I agree with whoever said ending up in the friendzone is your own fault. I think in a lot of ways I was lucky, never ending up in the friendzone. I never had the patience for it. There are two ways to end up in the friendzone. The first is to just flirt forever without making your intentions blatantly obvious. That way, she never has to reject you and you can go on denying that she doesn’t want you. This is what I never had patience for. I would always flirt for a bit until I could tell what she felt by her reactions, decided just to be blunt, or decided I just wasn’t interested. (Not surprisingly, deciding I wasn’t interested was the only time women didn’t like my approach). The second is making your intentions known, then deciding to be her friend hoping to wait it out. Again, never had the patience for this. If I did decide to play friends, I would never pretend I wasn’t interested. Eventually, I’d ruin even the idea of a friendship. I obviously don’t recommend that, but it worked.
Point is, getting in the friendzone is entirely up to you.
And you can be friends with a woman and not be in the friendzone. You treat them just like a guy for the most part, including your thoughts on other women.
Women will often say that they don’t like playing games, and they don’t playing games. What they really mean is that they want to be the one who plays the games, and they want you to play along without any trouble. They don’t want you playing them, and they don’t want honesty either. Heck, I think they’d rather have you play games then give them honesty. It makes it easier to play victim when the time comes…they don’t know what to do with honesty.
Ok. Then do it.
Exactly. The many times in the past I elected myself Mayor of the Friendzone it happened basically one of two ways:
1) Develop a crush on a girl and then fling time, attention and treasure at her without asking for anything in return because I knew she would reject me and I wanted to hang onto the illusion that I had a chance. Of course she accepted all my offerings because duh, why wouldn’t she, and I used that fact to maintain the illusion.
2) Develop a crush on a girl and make it known to her and push for what I wanted but never hard enough to get a clear no. If I ever sensed the no coming, I’d back off. The only difference between the first scenario and this one is that I would get SOME action… basically I would force her to work harder to keep the stream of goodies flowing in her direction and then fool myself into continuing with the belief that it was just a matter of time until she gave in to me completely.
Both are heinously deceptive courses of action… to myself and to her. Either way she was going to soak up my offerings so it wasn’t on her… it was on me for being a two-faced pussy begging simp for misrepresenting my position in the first case and a stalkerish creeper in the second for refusing to take the obvious no for an answer.
There were a few women who simply said NO and refused to let me become an orbiter, which I respected greatly, but I know that most women will not do that. The real tragedy for me isn’t that I didn’t get the ones I wanted, but that I wasted so much time and effort on them which I could have spent getting other ones.
That is the real cost of the friend zone, the opportunity cost of taking yourself out of the market to invest in a deal that you know will never pay off.
I’m disagree on the part about friendzone not being her fault, for two reasons.
First, the women will often pull you back in and think you have a chance when they feel you drifting away. They know exactly what they’re doing here. Sure, the guy has the option to ignore and keep going away, but he’s going to 2nd guess himself and wonder if he just orbited a little longer…
Second, accept attention from someone when you know they are hoping for reciprocation that never comes is wrong in my opinion. Sure, hard to blame her from the attention down, but you give a s~~~ about the other person, this is what you do. But she doesn’t give a s~~~ about her friend, she just wants the attention to keep flowing.
Honestly, would a guy do this to a woman? I’ve had a few women make it clear, or give clear enough hints, that they wanted more then friends. I made sure to make it perfectly clear that I wasn’t interested in a way that doesn’t embarrass them, and give them all the space they need to get away from me if it bothers them.
Yes, men can completely control this, but it’s not as if she can’t cut it out as well.
Ok. Then do it.
My rule these days is unless she’s family i care about, if you’re not f~~~ing her, who cares? Still, giving a s~~~ is an option even if you are
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