Destiny vs Free Will

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

John Doe you and I have had debates before and we have a mutual respect I believe..and I like hearing your opinions…

That being said, I find the most annoying thing bout your post is the predictability of finding the words, “that being said” When the next statements to be made are contrary to the ideas previously written is the correct time to use the phrase “that being said” that being said,your post don’t always follow this literary premise…should I remind you of what I said? or have I already reminded you?  You tend to use “that being said”  for filler and to the extreme..so much so, I scan your text looking for it, and I am seldom disappointed…that being said, your cool in my book…

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

With that being said about that being said about that which is that being said, I would have to say that being said about that being said about which is being said about that of which is being about that being said to the nth degree.

It is to provide clarity that although what I said may be deemed “insulting/or disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing with reason” in reality I have no intention of it being so.

It is more an explanation of intent rather than one of reason in itself.  These “philosophical” arguments heat up quickly.  They heat up because one of the few things a man really possesses are his beliefs.  When a man’s beliefs are questioned, it oftentimes puts into question everything a man actually owns and in effect puts the man himself into question.

So yes, I attempt to put the man “metaphorically” through the fire (and I expect to be treated the same), but it is not out of malice.  Rather just to see what is true and what is false.

 

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

John:       People who held your view; scientists who desperately wanted to find freewill, whose initial hypotheses predicted it, could not find it! Men who are twice as smart as all of us, for the last 40 years, have been trying to prove it. They concluded that it is an illusion. If you disagree, it means you don’t understand what the hell is going on. It means you don’t value the scientific method which INDISPUTABLY exposed freewill as an illusion!

Your emotional reaction to the facts doesn’t make them go away, and no one owes you an explanation. Your subjective feeling that you do harbor freewill is an illusion.

What part of, experiments during brain surgery, fMRI experiments, everything that Physics has to say, and self honesty about witnessing uninvited thoughts and desires pop up into the mind, don’t you understand?

Yet again, and for the last time, you need to reread my posts, I’ve laid it out perfectly. Everything I’ve said comes straight from the Neuroscientist, Sam Harris. Your attempt to humiliate me for reading books and quoting people smarter than me, as if I’m a pussy who can’t think for himself, would land you in a fight real world. Don’t think I didn’t read that s~~~. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I read books, published by people who do know the answers or who are the most qualified to try and answer them. On this subject, the verdict is in, freewill doesn’t exist. 

It’s as if you haven’t read anything I wrote. How old are you! How arrogant are you to post that “your” rebuttals haven’t been answered? You have no argument kid! Objectively and Subjectively, freewill is absent! What other way can we prove John Doe wrong. Go read a f~~~ing book for crying out loud.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

With that being said about that being said about that which is that being said, I would have to say that being said about that being said about which is being said about that of which is being about that being said to the nth degree.

 

ha ha ha  that did make me laugh

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Science is applied to the physical world.  It is based on sensory perception of the physical world.  You are incorrectly assuming that freewill is only physical.   You cannot physically observe abstract concepts or knowledge.

Even the origins of the scientific method were rooted in philosophy and alchemy.  Your “system for truth” is rooted in abstract thought.

Sam Harris’s experiment showed a dividing line of when the decision was made and when it was observed as brain activity.   He pointed out that the results of the decision were observed (feelings) not the decision itself.  They were distinctly separate events.

Getting back to a prior philosophical point that I repeated several times:

If illusions are a form of deception, then how can one be deceived unless they had the ability to believe something else?  You say I am deceived, but if have no free will, then there is no need for me to be deceived.

This is why critical thinking is important.  You cannot believe everything somebody says just because they have a title.  That is a herd mentality.

 

[Anonymous 42]

harpo-my-“SON” wrote:

With that being said about that being said about that which is that being said, I would have to say that being said about that being said about which is being said about that of which is being about that being said to the nth degree.

I’ll need avogadro’s number applied to words to fully understand that one… <scratching my head><still scratching my head><still scratching my head some more>

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Anonymous wrote:

I’ll need avogadro’s number applied to words to fully understand that one…

Maybe he should apply it to this phrase so Terminal gets it:

John Doe wrote:

If illusions are a form of deception, then how can one be deceived unless they had the ability to believe something else? You say I am deceived, but if have no free will, then there is no need for me to be deceived.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

How about this John.

I’ll give you a list of 5 books to read. Ill give you 2 months to read them all. Then I will give you a 100 multiple choice questions test (20 Q’s on each book.) You will have only 4 hours to email me back the completed test, after I have emailed it to you. I’ll even send you a few of the books for free, you’d have to buy a couple to be fair. (probably less than a $50 investment and I don’t expect my copies back)

If you can score an 80% or better and swear on your dignity as a man, as a MGHOW, that your faith is still perfect and that you still believe in Freewill, I will no s~~~ give you $200. That’s two hundred bucks (more money than you’ve ever seen right?) I’ll mail it to you. If you fail the test or if you lose your faith, then either you were lazy or you actually learned something which would delight me honestly. You’d be better for it and I’d know that one more person has a credible world view.

That’s how convinced I’am that you have a lot of learning to do. Think about it, you have nothing to lose and only knowledge to gain. I already know you won’t do it though because you don’t take this s~~~ seriously. You are also too afraid you’ll turn atheist or fail the test I require. I don’t want to put you down but I doubt that you’d even finish the reading which is lite. The test won’t be easy either, you’d better read. And there is no failing the test, claiming to be atheist and still getting the reward. You have to pass and say that you still believe as you do now.

Anyway, take it easy.  Have fun this Easter listening to a pack of lies and illogical bulls~~~ spew from hucksters and into the ears of children.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Or you can just answer the question and stop avoiding it.

 

After all, you read remember?  You should answer it no problem.

 

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Terminal Meme wrote:

Your attempt to humiliate me for reading books and quoting people smarter than me, as if I’m a pussy who can’t think for himself, would land you in a fight real world.

You humiliated yourself with your behavior.  Don’t pin this on me.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

MG-TOWER that was John Doe’s reply to this”

harpomason wrote:

John Doe you and I have had debates before and we have a mutual respect I believe..and I like hearing your opinions…

That being said, I find the most annoying thing bout your post is the predictability of finding the words, “that being said” When the next statements to be made are contrary to the ideas previously written is the correct time to use the phrase “that being said” that being said,your post don’t always follow this literary premise…should I remind you of what I said? or have I already reminded you?  You tend to use “that being said”  for filler and to the extreme..so much so, I scan your text looking for it, and I am seldom disappointed…that being said, your cool in my book…

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

John Doe wrote:

You are incorrectly assuming that freewill is only physical.

 How do you presume to know what isn’t physical? You pretend to know things that you can’t possibly know. I correctly have stated that we live in a causal universe that makes freewill impossible. Also, is your statement here revealing, that you admit freewill can’t exist in the physical world? How could you ever know about an imaginary metaphysical space where you can dump ideas like freewill that don’t hold up in the real world?

John Doe wrote:

rooted in abstract thought.

What do you mean? We make an observation, we make a prediction, we set a control, we observe the experiment, we revise our prediction based on new data. That is the scientific method. There’s no room for “abstract thoughts” about Harry Potter realms you want to believe are real.

John Doe wrote:

They were distinctly separate events.

In the experiment, executed dozens of times, on dozens of different people in dozens of ways by dozens of different scientists. The person either verbally or physically reports the time when they’ve made a decision. The person clicks a button or reports the second they decided. The fMRI or other machines being used, applied directly to the brain in some cases, predicts the decision the person makes several seconds before the person reports having made the decision! Dude, quit trying to deny the evidence.

It’s like you’re trying to say that we consciously make decisions that we have no memory of, in another realm, before our physical brains make the same decision, and then 5 seconds later we think we’ve made the decision. Give it a rest and accept the galactically obvious conclusion that freewill doesn’t exist and that you’re mistaken.

You then go on, 

John Doe wrote:

If illusions are a form of deception, then how can one be deceived unless they had the ability to believe something else?  You say I am deceived, but if have no free will, then there is no need for me to be deceived.

I have no idea what you’re trying to convey here or how you consider it, like the end-all proof against data. If someone is under an illusion, it says nothing about their credulity except that they are under that illusion. What’s your point? You also seem to think that there is no point to life once you admit the truth of the data we’ve proven beyond any doubt. The opportunities we have for growth and to learn, to attain well-being, do not suddenly lose all importance when you admit that freewill is an illusion. We still feel pain, we still are alive just like yesterday, we still owe it to ourselves to strive to do better. This isn’t a choice we make. Striving, trying and discipline are all words that describe a causal framework. If we had freewill, we would just do what we wanted, when we wanted to. We don’t have that luxury in any amount, no matter how small you want to slice it.

People are directed, in absolute totality, by memetics (neurology) and genetics (heredity). Everything else is physical phenomenon that we also do not control such as weather, gravity etc… There is no sliver of freewill hiding behind a door in the back of the brain, leading to a metaphysical reality where you can choose chocolate over vanilla. The choice is an illusion, it’s decided by numerous variables (themselves orchestrated by prior events) that we did not choose and couldn’t originate. Hopefully, your automated brain will be able to comprehend this. Good luck.

 

 

 

[Anonymous 42]

<opening skull> <inserting brain beater> <setting on high> < hitting the switch>

Zerrrrrrr, chop chop chop, brroooozzzzzz, thunk thunk thunk, grang grang grang thump, chop chop chop zaroooooooo tink tink tink… Does anybody want some brain slush?

 

 

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

MG-TOWER that is some brilliant satire and hitting the nail perfectly…I started this topic and its gotten to such a state of mental masturbation I can only laugh and try and make others laugh…serve me up one of those braincell slushies

 

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Yellow WizardParticipant 41]

MGTOW are often fond of references from the movie The Matrix.  It so happens the movie has its own take on the debate of “destiny versus free will”. Remember when Neo meets the Oracle in the kitchen for the first time?

http://www.matrixresolutions.com/index.html?page=conversations_neo_&_oracle_m1

“Morpheus and Neo both believe that everything begins with choice…” to quote the commentary from this site. So Morpheus and Neo advocate free will. The Oracle, however, sees the Matrix as pre-destined. “..(I)t is just mathematical calculations on the Oracle’s part based on all of the input that she receives from inside and outside the Matrix.”  Heck, she can even predict when someone’s gonna break a vase of flowers….wow.

The commentary continues. “Even so, Morpheus and Neo are still correct. They are in control of their own life. They are still making choices for themselves. Are they really supposed to believe they are bound to a certain fate just because someone else (whether it be a human, a machine, or God himself) happens to know exactly what their choices will be? The choices are still being made whether knowledge of those choices existed beforehand or not.”

“This whole dilemma boils down to which perspective you chose when you look at the Matrix. The Oracle and Neo/Morpheus are both correct from their own perspectives.”

Personally, I strive to overcome the apparent cognitive dissonance associated with having free will while also being a table full of pool b~~~~. I am a machine of sorts. I will act in certain predictable and absolute ways. But I am also a self programmable machine. Or, as the Oracle says, “…what’s really gonna bake your noodle later on is…” I try to overcome any maladaptive predictability, even if overcoming predictability is also in itself predictable. This is done with the sort of introspection, self knowledge, and research that Terminal Meme clearly promotes.

 

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Terminal Meme wrote:

What do you mean? We make an observation, we make a prediction, we set a control, we observe the experiment, we revise our prediction based on new data. That is the scientific method. There’s no room for “abstract thoughts” about Harry Potter realms you want to believe are real.

The history of science:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scientific_method

It is mostly based around philosophy not fact.

In regards to Sam Harris:

 

Terminal Meme wrote:

In the experiment, executed dozens of times, on dozens of different people in dozens of ways by dozens of different scientists. The person either verbally or physically reports the time when they’ve made a decision. The person clicks a button or reports the second they decided. The fMRI or other machines being used, applied directly to the brain in some cases, predicts the decision the person makes several seconds before the person reports having made the decision!

MRI do not predict decisions.  They only show what part of the brain are being used.  His studies pointed toward certain part of the brain being using for religious thoughts others for empirical.  Nothing about prediction.

The studies are further explained below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)

It basically shows the brain was hardwired for religion to some extent.  After all the “laws of physics” are responsible for everything according to you.  They are also responsible for making these parts of the brain you want extinguished.

Another interesting point is that his “study” pointed to the emotional part of the brain as being an active part of the “religious” individual.  If you were swearing and being irrational because I disagree with Sam Harris, does that mean you are religious and he is your God?  Because if that is the case:

1. Since getting his PhD, he has conducted no scientific research.
2. Since getting his PhD, he has taught no university/college courses in neuroscience.
3. Since getting his PhD, he has devoted his efforts to his anti-religious think tank and publishing books, such as the one on using drugs and meditation to discover truths about our reality.
4. He received his PhD through partial funding from his own atheist organization.
5. He didn’t do any of the experiments for his own thesis work.
6. His PhD thesis was about how science can determine what is right and wrong and he turned it into a book for sale.
7. Since publishing his thesis/book, Harris has yet to use science to resolve a single moral dispute.

For further criticisms:

https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/neuroscientist-sam-harris/

He is a New York times best seller.  So is Bill O’Reilley for “Killing Jesus”.

Your “reading” is far from college level.  It is strictly entertainment for the masses.  You have no right to call me or anyone here stupid.

Terminal Meme wrote:

I have no idea what you’re trying to convey here or how you consider it, like the end-all proof against data. If someone is under an illusion, it says nothing about their credulity except that they are under that illusion. What’s your point?

Illusions cannot exist without free will.

To summarize this post:

After reading more into Sam Harris, I  cannot take your argument seriously at all.

On a personal note, I have gotten A’s and B’s in 400+ level courses in college with little to no studying.  Other students would study all night and get C’s and D’s.  I am not impressed by his B.A. in philosophy.

Do you want me to further research into him now?  Is this what you really want?

[John DoeParticipant 743]

You are literally endorsing a man who claims drugs helped him in gaining more knowledge.  Then argue he is rational.

I win this debate.

[Anonymous 42]

harpo-my-“SON” wrote:

I started this topic and its gotten to such a state of mental masturbation I can only laugh and try and make others laugh…serve me up one of those braincell slushies

Ha Ha Ha ha!

Salute, Pichi Hundan! (friends for 100 yrs.)

[Anonymous 42]

I like finger’s style! That’s the way I always win! and it always p~~~es off the other guy!

Thumbs Up JD! Do monkeys have thumbs?

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Yeah, I need a banana vodka.  This has been one of the dumbest debates I have ever had since highschool.  It is my fault for egging him on.

“Sam Harris!!! Sam Harris explains it all!!!”

So I look into Sam Harris.  I am not only unimpressed, but I am literally ashamed of myself for letting this go on so long.  I have found “random” trolls in spain on this site before.  Finding this bulls~~~ was too easy.

I am a bully and an asshole.

Make that two banana vodkas….on the rocks please.

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