Christian/Religious MGTOW is it possible?!

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that you haven’t read s~~~ and it shows in all your posts. Let me ask you John Doe, Why would I debate anyone who is 50 years behind in common knowledge, someone who thinks evolution isn’t proven fact? You have done absolutely none of the back ground reading required or you wouldn’t be babbling on like you do.

I gave a list of all the things this thread should have included. Why would I rewrite the content of authors you should have already read? Why would I re-explain debates and re-de-bunk Crustian apology that’s been recycled and slaughtered time and time again for 100 years?

You act like this is a fresh topic that’s still open to debate in defense of Abrahamic faith? It’s not. Your team got it’s ass kicked time and time again, the debate is over. Monotheism is in ashes, surviving only on ignorant memes and the overly tolerant.

Evolution sent monotheism to it’s phony hell. It continually gives us  indisputable evidence that life needs no creator. To suggest life needs a designer is an anthropomorphic delusion anyway, the trademark of our vanity. We no longer needed the god we’d created to excuse the complexity of animals and ourselves. Anthropologists are still unearthing our hominid cousins everyday. 25 varieties of hominids in the last 3 million years alone which is nothing in geological time. When Crustians lost the Evolution battle, they joined it and claimed god uses natural selection to create (asinine). The Pope himself admitted evolution is true 20 years ago. Where were you? Your poster boy for faith, Francis Collins even said that to doubt or debate evolution is stupid. As I said, you don’t know and haven’t read s~~~ and it shows. Go do you homework.

I’ll throw you a few examples of how intelligent design was shoved up it’s own ass. Remember these are only the human inefficiencies. The cosmos and other animals here on earth have innumerable signs of mis-design and incalculable waste too, making “ID” out to be the retarded and desperate cling to faith that it’s is.

*In god’s infinite wisdom, he created humans with breathing holes that are also used for eating, causing thousands of children to die every year.

*In his loving mercy, god gave us 5 senses that are dull, useless and significantly inferior to dumb beasts. Our vision, which has a blind spot reveals nothing in radio, xray, gamma, infrared or microwaves. We also have difficulty seeing only a few dozen meters away. Our hearing and smelling is just as limited. Great design.

*We have to eat, drink, pee and poop several times a day  to keep our bodies going optimally. Any designer with unlimited power, time and knowledge would be embarrassed to say the least. No wonder your god never shows up, he’s ashamed, impotent and evil.

*With god’s consideration, we get to sleep 30% of our life away. Lovely design, the human body can’t even stay awake.

*With unlimited power, time and knowledge, somehow god saw fit to extinct 99% of creatures that have ever walked earth, including all our previous hominid models he presumably was displeased with. Then, when we rolled around, I guess he was still angry,  he let us suffer for at least 250,000 years (nearly going extinct ourselves 80,000 years ago during TOBA) before finally saying something. And what did he say? Apparently he was angry about penis’ and sodomy and was too bashful to intervene. He promptly instructs us to cut the skin off the dicks he designed.

*God’s evolution is flawless work. Our knees, which we used to trot with for 1/2 a billion years, now are arthritic in no time since we now use them to walk upright. Our teeth are so poorly evolved that most of us died before the age of 30, in agony. This went on for over a million years.

*We get cancer and die, all of us if we live long enough. Apparently god loves virus and bacteria since he designed hundreds of thousands more of those to viciously attack us. They’re virtually perfect instruments of suffering and death, but he couldn’t get hominids designed optimally and hates us for it. But actually I guess he finally tried to help us, so he sent himself to be murdered for the errors he designed us to make. Eureka.

So how about it? Occums Razor (if you even know what that is, NO because you don’t read s~~~) Does it Intelligent Design makes sense at all when hit with just a few facts? Or is it exceedingly obvious that life wasn’t intelligently designed at, that it’s a near perfect simulation of waste, inefficiency and needless suffering. But I know what you’d say. God is mysterious right? Who can judge the ethics of his ways? Yet, your own moral intuition is exactly what you use to establish his goodness anyway. And when it’s pointed out that he is impotent and evil (since he either can’t help us or chooses not to) you circle back around to excuse your useless faith and fear of death. Who isn’t being honest or accounting for the bias of the human condition?

Go on believing in a god that doesn’t exist, no sweat to me. Just admit that  faith is all you have to go on. There isn’t now, and has never been anything even remotely reasonable to advance in defense of that faith. Not only could, what believers say, not be known or true, it sounds more and more stupid everyday. The truth is that faith is an instinctive and vain, anthropomorphic delusion, period! Faith is not a virtue. “Faith is the license religious people give each other, to believe when reason fails.” -Sam Harris 

[WolfgarParticipant 21]

Hello Terminal,

Anybody can insult another person.  Women go on rants and insult men all the time.  Children insult each other all the time as well.  But since you have decided to turn this into “insult the Christians” I’ll see if I can manage to insult you.  Although my insults probably won’t be as good as yours because I am not as practiced at it as you are.

Speaking of women and children I thought this website is about MEN going their own way, as in mature men.  Your flurry of insults has shown everybody that you are not mature so that would put you in the category of women or children or immature men.  Which is it?  Have you checked yourself for a vagina?

But enough of my novice insults let’s see what the Bible has to say about you:

(Psalms 53:1) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

And I’m quite certain that the next 2 verses will apply to you with any truth that is told to you:

(Proverbs 23:9)  Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

(Proverbs 26:11)  As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

In other words why bother explaining anything to you.  I will be wasting my time.

But since you are not the only one on this website I will make a few points in response to your post for the benefit of other people.

You said “The cosmos and other animals here on earth have innumerable signs of mis-design and incalculable waste too, making “ID” out to be the retarded and desperate cling to faith that it’s is.”

This statement along with all of your examples shows how ignorant of Christianity you really are.  Here is a summarized timeline of Biblical events in regards to the creation:
(Genesis 1:31)  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

(Genesis 3:17)  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:18)  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;

(Genesis 7:11)  In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
(Genesis 7:12)  And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The original creation was very good but because of man’s refusal to follow God’s law the earth was cursed.  And then later the earth was subjected to a global flood.  This flood destroyed the surface of the world.  We live in a cursed and destroyed creation.  So what you blame God for creating, is the result of Adam’s sin and your sin and yes my sin.  What we see and experience is not the original creation.

You said “The Pope himself admitted evolution is true 20 years ago.”

You mention this like he is a Christian leader that all Christians should be following.  Let me dispel a myth here, the pope does not represent Biblical Christianity.  He only represents himself, the catholic church, and the globalists not Biblical Christianity.  And while I’m on this subject, most of the protestant denominations have been co-opted by the globalists/satanists that they don’t represent Biblical Christianity any more.

I will agree with at least one thing you mentioned.  “A Purpose Dribble Life.”
You are referencing the book called A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.  This book is not Christian and is meant to steer the true Christian church away from Biblical Christianity and into a one world religion.  And for those that don’t know, Rick Warren is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations which is a well known front group for the globalists.

You admonish people several times in your rants for not reading certain things.  You should take your own advice and at least get the facts about what the Bible actually says before making comments on it.  This only shows how much of a fool you really are.

(Proverbs 18:13)  He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

You’re even funnier than him, rolling in here with numerous Babble versus as if they prove anything. I especially found the Proverb amusing (he that answers before hearing is a fool and a shame). It reminded me of that other similarly,  dumb AA jargon; “Contempt prior to investigation.” But let me ask you mister. What’s worse, contempt prior to investigation or certainty without evidence? It’s seems I’ve exhausted my ear for Christianity’s shallow depths and baseless claims. I’ve grown to pity it’s zeal for faith; a liability which is similar to an emotional gambling addiction. Unlike a scientist’s love for the unknown, his call to action; the faithful love the unknown because they are content with unknowing.

My stomach cringes. You cite the usual, disturbing Christian rhetoric about how men are born in sin, imperfect, perpetually in need of redemption. Unbelievably apathetic against the human race, you disgust me. I concede that we’re mortal animals capable of meaningful experience but you would rather insult us by saying we’re the cursed dog’s of a tinkering tyrant, doomed to servitude, punishment, imperfection and judgment. Holding the species in high esteem I can see.

I didn’t insult him by stating a few times, he hasn’t read s~~~ and doesn’t know the debate. It’s plain to see. He has shown his ignorance of the material and that he can’t form a coherent rebuttal due to misunderstanding the people he addresses. Just read the last few posts critically. It’s obvious this guy doesn’t thoroughly read, skips words, misses meanings and then starts debating positions he’s imagined others have taken. Like a drunk person scolding a tree.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

First of all you ignored the issue regarding the “illusion of free will”.  Answer that first.

Terminal Meme wrote:

Evolution sent monotheism to it’s phony hell. It continually gives us indisputable evidence that life needs no creator. To suggest life needs a designer is an anthropomorphic delusion anyway, the trademark of our vanity. We no longer needed the god we’d created to excuse the complexity of animals and ourselves. Anthropologists are still unearthing our hominid cousins everyday. 25 varieties of hominids in the last 3 million years alone which is nothing in geological time. When Crustians lost the Evolution battle, they joined it and claimed god uses natural selection to create (asinine). The Pope himself admitted evolution is true 20 years ago.

In regards to evolution, there is no moral or religious implications to it.  In some faiths, such as Catholicism, it can be accepted without contradiction.  But you should have done your reading, otherwise you would have known this.  The theory of evolution is a theory of diversity, it is not a be all end all in itself.  Besides the missing links there are fundamental flaws such as its linear understanding of time.  Others include but are not limited too why if we evolved from apes are apes still around?  There also is a philosophical flaw that if evolution is for the “survival of the fittest” than ideologically bacteria would be at the top of the hierarchy.  They can survive in temperatures and environments no other organism can survive in.  Also why evolve when something, such as bacteria, are already thriving.  Complexity does not guarantee survival.

Other flaws include:

1-“The fossil record often lacks transitional forms and that there are “explosions” of new life forms, a pattern of radiations that challenges Darwinian evolution theory.”

2-“Many scientists have challenged the ability of random mutation and natural selection to produce complex biological features.”

3- “Many lines of evidence for Darwinian evolution and common descent are weak:
a. Vertebrate embryos start out developing very differently, in contrast with the drawings of embryos often found in textbooks which mostly appear similar.

 

b. DNA evidence paints conflicting pictures of the “tree of life” There is no such single “tree.”

c. Evidence of small-scale changes, such as the modest changes in the size of finch-beaks or slight changes in the color frequencies in the wings of “peppered-moths”, shows microevolution, NOT macroevolution.”

However, the argument about evolution does not matter because in regards to a Divine being it is irrelevant.  Even if it was right, and it is seriously flawed, it does not contradict the existence of a Divine being.

Terminal Meme wrote:

In god’s infinite wisdom, he created humans with breathing holes that are also used for eating, causing thousands of children to die every year.

 

Terminal Meme wrote:

We have to eat, drink, pee and poop several times a day to keep our bodies going optimally. Any designer with unlimited power, time and knowledge would be embarrassed to say the least.

Terminal Meme wrote:

With god’s consideration, we get to sleep 30% of our life away. Lovely design, the human body can’t even stay awake.

Terminal Meme wrote:

*God’s evolution is flawless work. Our knees, which we used to trot with for 1/2 a billion years, now are arthritic in no time since we now use them to walk upright. Our teeth are so poorly evolved that most of us died before the age of 30, in agony. This went on for over a million years.

Terminal Meme wrote:

*We get cancer and die, all of us if we live long enough. Apparently god loves virus and bacteria since he designed hundreds of thousands more of those to viciously attack us. They’re virtually perfect instruments of suffering and death, but he couldn’t get hominids designed optimally and hates us for it. But actually I guess he finally tried to help us, so he sent himself to be murdered for the errors he designed us to make. Eureka.

Some of these things you are taking way out of context, such as people living only into their thirties.  There is plenty of evidence people lived a variety of lifespans. Japanese people often lived into there eighties.  The common old age for an American is into their seventies.  However, for the younger generation, they are predictinga shorter lifespan.  So you cannot say we are evolving into old age.  Age fluxuates for certain times and cultures.

All of the above have to do with disease and death, both brought on by man’s fall according to the Abrahamic religions.   But you don’t believe that do you?  Well you can’t blame God for these things since he doesn’t exist, so I guess you would be stuck blaming man for causing all these things since we are in.  However, that is what the old “religions” do already.

Terminal Meme wrote:

So how about it? Occums Razor (if you even know what that is, NO because you don’t read s~~~) Does it Intelligent Design makes sense at all when hit with just a few facts? Or is it exceedingly obvious that life wasn’t intelligently designed at, that it’s a near perfect simulation of waste, inefficiency and needless suffering. But I know what you’d say. God is mysterious right? Who can judge the ethics of his ways? Yet, your own moral intuition is exactly what you use to establish his goodness anyway. And when it’s pointed out that he is impotent and evil (since he either can’t help us or chooses not to) you circle back around to excuse your useless faith and fear of death. Who isn’t being honest or accounting for the bias of the human condition

In regards to “God being mysterious” there is no solution you have offered or given an answer to that is not mysterious in itself.  For example you offer evolution as an explanation, but you have not answered or even hinted to why.  You gave “proof” that was subjective to your reasoning, which in itself has alot of contradictions. You talk about ethics in terms of efficiency and inefficiency.  Efficiency for what exactly?  To finish one project and move onto another? Since when is efficiency and issue of right and wrong?  Would not it be more efficient to get rid of efficientcy since to be efficient it would require one to work and work itself is inefficient?

Also you give “examples” trying to prove something is lack. But it does not solve the problem of “good”.  You say humanity’s faults are evil, but you have not solved the problem of the existence of humanity itself which is Good.  Evil cannot exist on its own terms, otherwise it would be good.  Good can exist on its own term, evil is just a defiency in that Good.  Your examples of “defiency”, only prove how much Good exists.  For example you blame the mouth for causing death.  But it also causes life.  Your examples are not examples, they are just very subjective interpretations.

 

You are violating occums razor in that you are assuming there is a moral right and wrong in regards to the creation of the human body.  As in somethings, such as ineffiency is bad while efficiency is good, should be while others shouldn’t.  First, as an atheist, your are violationg occum’s razor by assuming their is a “right/wrong” in regards to the creation of the human body.  Second morality fundamentally subjective to the atheist since there is no belief others than only the material world exists.

In regards to God being “impotent and evil” you cannot say that.  According to an atheist one cannot blame something that doesn’t exist.  If God is evil, then he exists.  If God does not exist you cannot call Him evil, since in effect you would be blaming something that doesn’t exist.  Either he exist or doesn’t.  You are not making any sense.  In one respect you say God does not exist.  Then you say God is evil.  Make up your mind.

Terminal Meme wrote:

*With unlimited power, time and knowledge, somehow god saw fit to extinct 99% of creatures that have ever walked earth, including all our previous hominid models he presumably was displeased with. Then, when we rolled around, I guess he was still angry, he let us suffer for at least 250,000 years (nearly going extinct ourselves 80,000 years ago during TOBA) before finally saying something. And what did he say? Apparently he was angry about penis’ and sodomy and was too bashful to intervene. He promptly instructs us to cut the skin off the dicks he designed.

According to the evolutionist this would be a good thing, that a previous version of humanity was wiped out and replace with a superior stock.  So you cannot quote this as a evil otherwise you are guilt of hypocrisy.  In regards of the age of humanity, noone knows about this.  Radioactive dating is fundamentally flawed in that it required some variables to literally be “taken out of thin air” in order for the equation to work.  It is not even a rational or accurate way of measuring. You cannot quote to know something when you have no evidence to take into account, other than a few opinionated guesses.

To be frank, for as much as you “read”, you do not seem to know what you are talking about. All of your examples requires a subjective interpretation or assumptions
that these are universal traits of mankind.  As I said you seem to be caught up on inefficiencies but you do not solve the problem of the “good of existence.”  All
your argument was based on a subjective interpretation based through the self belief that your reasoning processes are not faulty.

In regards to me being “wrong”.  Prove it.  Take something I said, quote it, and prove me wrong.  All you say is “I read, I read” but the evidence is lacking.  Your
whole argument was based on defiency which is wrong for several reasons.

-It does not solve the problem of good.
-It is a bias interpretation based on faith.  As in “everything is bad” which is a subjective statement that there is no proof for.
-If everything is bad, than bad is Good. Which is doublespeak, therefore we cannot have a logically argument.
-Or nothingness is Good, which would be a contradiction since you would be giving a truth that exists as a good thereby contradicting itself.

Terminal Meme wrote:

It’s obvious this guy doesn’t thoroughly read, skips words, misses meanings and then starts debating positions he’s imagined others have taken. Like a drunk person scolding a tree.

I throughly read your post.  And found it lacking and pointed out why.  In regards to the other things prove it, you do not seem to know what you are talking about with your own authors.  If you do not understand what your reading with them, how can read me an understand?  Quote me and prove me wrong. All you have done is pointed why everyone is wrong but gave no explanation why other than “read.”  But according to you because you “read” that means you know more.  It just means you read that is it.  Remember occum’s razor?  Don’t make any assumptions you understand something, just because you read it.

I’ll make this simple for you.  Next time just respond to these points.

-Point out where I am wrong. Quote me and explain why.
-Retort my point about the “illusion of free will.”
-Don’t use shaming language. Be rational and logical. Throwing insults like a child does not work on these forums.
-Explain why you are right.  Do not say “because I read.”  8 years old read, it doesn’t mean they understand what they are reading.

Do those things and you won’t sound like some angry protestant bible thumper.

[Anonymous 2]

Wow, feisty debate! I myself believe a thing similar to Keymasters beliefs on page one, my concept of God is simply absolute truth, because absolute truth is undeniable, undebatable, and omnipresent in all things, even those we cannot percieve, such as whether or not man has free will.

Just wanted to chime in saying that no matter my beliefs, I do not consider MGTOW to have any religious relevance apart from one thing: rejection of marriage, which has religious connotations for many people. MGTOW cannot believe that the union between man and women is “sacred”, for any mortal torment (including marriage) would be a valid reason to secure a pleasant afterlife. After all, that’s an eternal arrangement while marriage is sure to end, sooner or later!

[Lazarus LongParticipant 365]

Terminal Meme wrote:

So how about it? Occums Razor (if you even know what that is, NO because you don’t read s~~~) Does it Intelligent Design makes sense at all when hit with just a few facts? Or is it exceedingly obvious that life wasn’t intelligently designed at, that it’s a near perfect simulation of waste, inefficiency and needless suffering.

Am  I the only one that wonders why Terminal Meme believes in evolution if he also believes that the bodies that we have evolved are

Terminal Meme wrote:

near perfect simulation of waste, inefficiency and needless suffering.

Teminal is this what the whole thing is about to you that you are upset by life and so feel a need to try and tear down others beliefs to fill the emptiness in your own life by the holes within you?

Additionally since you claim to care about Occam’s Razor which is a more simple explanation that some random chance happened that created the universe and everything in it or that a being who is powerful enough to manifest the universe created it?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occam's%20razor

 

Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self. -Terry Goodkind

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

This is for Wandersmann  who wrote:

There’s one ultimate reality and irrational bulls~~~ deserves to be pointed out when it affects others.

I can only think of one way me expressing my religious beliefs could possibly have any effect on you.

how does it effect you?  other than make you feel warranted to call people irrational….  your beliefs do not effect me…so how do mine effect you?  This reminds me of another thread that asked if it was possible to be atheist and mgtow..

Smitty asked a better Question when he wrote this:

I have a question….

Is it possible to be an atheist without being a smug, condescending, assclown? Personally I believe in God, whether anybody else does or doesn’t is none of my business. The SINGLE defining characteristic of the vast majority of atheists I’ve come across, hubris. They aren’t happy it seems just not believing in God, they MUST ridicule those that do. They preen and strut, and wax philosophically about their imagined intellectual superiority. They also claim to be “oppressed” by those practicing a religion. They make obviously false statements like: MOST wars are caused by religion. My favorite is their claim that there is no moral objectivity, but that they are right and I am wrong.

I am sure you can be an atheist and mgtow, but can you be an atheist without being an asshole…

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

I have a question….

Is it possible to be an atheist without being a smug, condescending, assclown? Personally I believe in God, whether anybody else does or doesn’t is none of my business. The SINGLE defining characteristic of the vast majority of atheists I’ve come across, hubris. They aren’t happy it seems just not believing in God, they MUST ridicule those that do. They preen and strut, and wax philosophically about their imagined intellectual superiority. They also claim to be “oppressed” by those practicing a religion. They make obviously false statements like: MOST wars are caused by religion. My favorite is their claim that there is no moral objectivity, but that they are right and I am wrong.

I am sure you can be an atheist and mgtow, but can you be an atheist without being an asshole…

[John DoeParticipant 743]

harpo-my-“SON” wrote:

but can you be an atheist without being an asshole…

That is a good question.  I have been pondering that myself lately.  So have some of the other guys on this forum.

Lazarus Long wrote:

Additionally since you claim to care about Occam’s Razor which is a more simple explanation that some random chance happened that created the universe and everything in it or that a being who is powerful enough to manifest the universe created it?

I do not know if this is what you are saying, but I should have mention this point.  All accident’s require a prerequisite order.  It is impossible for “existence” to be an accident, because something would have to exist for there to be an accident to begin with.

 

I am tired of hearing about evolution.  I have explained this in my above post.  It has no effect on the existence of a Divine entity nor most religions.  I find it faulty on its own terms.  There is no “religious” reason why.   Atheists cannot get past that.  Evolution is faulty.  Evolution does not prove there is no God.  It is a “theory” about diversity.  That is it.

That and they avoid any retort to the “free will is an illusion” argument.  They seem to avoid that.

All they seem to do is point to a bunch of things “they do not like” and say “There is no God, because I do not get what I want.”  Almost all there examples are subjective and reactionary.

-They are always talking about God without referencing a definition as to what/whom God is.

-They are always talking about God, even though according to him he does not exist.  That contradictorally acknowledge what doesn’t exist.

-Half of them say you can “prove a negative”.  Obviously these ones never had a logic class.

-All of them talk about how smart they are, but never give an explanation why.  Everyone else is just suppose to take it on faith.

-They are always angry and depressed.

-They follow some writers dogmatically without question.  Then criticize others for “following dogma.”

-They say humanity made up God as a lie to deal with reality because humanity can’t.  Then say humanity is the solution for everything.

-They deify the human will, but contradictorily state there is no God.

-They blame religion for the most wars, although statistically this is not true.  On a side note, ISIS has a number of atheists.  Even “religious” organizations have to be analyzed in their geopolitical context.

+Then they say humanity made religion.  Which means we caused the wars, not God.

What else is there?

Oh yeah, they keep talking about the “flying spaghetti monster” as some deep truth that people will believe anything.  Even though no one believes in it.  So they contradict themselves again.

Is there anything else I am forgetting?

 

 

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Lazarus Long wrote:

Am I the only one that wonders why Terminal Meme believes in evolution if he also believes that the bodies that we have evolved are Terminal Meme wrote: near perfect simulation of waste, inefficiency and needless suffering.

Had similar point, not the same though.

John Doe wrote:

According to the evolutionist this would be a good thing, that a previous version of humanity was wiped out and replace with a superior stock. So you cannot quote this as a evil otherwise you are guilt of hypocrisy.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

@john Doe you said something on my destiny vs freewill topic that brought about some irony and made me laugh.

John Doe you wrote: I don’t think Destiny goes against Free will, I think they both compliment each other in different respects.   One could ask the question, why does destiny have to go against free will?  They are both  different things.

 

I wrote a short story and the last words were:  “He was destined to be free”

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

9 million children die every year under the age of 5. That’s well over 24,000 kids a day! 1000 an hour. Any god who would allow children to suffer and die this way can either do nothing to help them or chooses not to, therefore he is either impotent or evil. -Sam Harris

“Just think of their parents, who are praying at this very instant for their children to be spared; and their prayers will not be answered. And on your view, most of these people are praying to the wrong god! If you are praying to the monkey god Hanuman, you may as well be praying to Apollo or Elvis Presley because you are doomed (on your view). Just think about it (on your view), god deliberately engineered the geological isolation of the Hindus below the the Himalayas causing them to miss the revelation. Billions of people (and billions more like them through history) unjustly sentenced to eternal torture by fire (thankfully there’s no reason to believe the Christian hell exists) As matter of probability, we should all expect to go to hell (on your view) since you have less than a 30% chance of choosing the right faith. They make clearly incompatible claims” -Sam Harris

I’m pulling these quotes straight out of memory. I’d never quote you John Doe (by your name we can see you’re a nobody) You aren’t worthy of mention and are damned near illiterate; unable to read, write or think. Apart from misrepresenting and misunderstanding what I’ve written twice, you still think I owe you explanations for your severely expired arguments.

You said, evolution has nothing to do with the god debate, that Catholicism is compatible with evolution and then went on to try and debunk it. This is ignorance at full gallop. Darwin showed the world, an explanation for life (indisputable despite your lack of an education) that didn’t need a creator and this has nothing to do with the god debate? And how is 3 billion years of unconscionable waste, misdesign and extinction parallel with the will of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being? How convenient, after the church murders scientists and suppresses truth for centuries, to say “oh, evolution is compatible, it’s god’s tool.” How convenient, that Adam is to blame (a mythical character whose existence is impossible).

Furthermore, freewill doesn’t exist and could never exist in this universe. Christianity falls flat on its face when you see that no one can make a “choice” to follow Christ. Not that intelligent people desire to be in a cult of human sacrifice anyway! Never mind the irresponsible and ugly idea of vicarious atonement, we’re expected to loathe ourselves and upon death, graduate to a celestial North Korea where we’ll praise “him” for eternity without any earthly comforts. And that’s the best case scenario! What kind of god makes salvation depend upon believing in him on bad evidence?

Objectively, we know we live in a universe dictated in total, by cause and effect. All matter and energy (including all humans), since the big bang to the present, is one seemingly endless domino drop. Innumerable variables coincide to produce every event no matter how seemingly complex or simple. There is no escape, prior events solely direct all possible future outcomes. Only what can happen, will happen. And in instances that seem random or where we are currently unable to predict a cause, as in quantum physics, we see that the randomness is yet another variable beyond our control, an integral part of the chain itself. This objective view of a Deterministic universe is not compatible with the idea of freewill, period. It’s not one immutable law for billions of galaxies and a physical pardon for humans pal. Sorry.

Subjectively, freewill is unobtainable as well. Though we feel that we author our thoughts and actions, this is an illusion and it’s been verified in the lab many times and in many ways. Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) and tests done during brain surgery show us that a persons feeling that they have decided, their choice, comes several seconds after, the brain has already made the decision. Thoughts, desires and emotions simply rise in to consciousness uninvited. You have no more control over the next thing you think, than the next thing I write. Where is the freewill in that. We’re entirely subject to previous events that we had no control over and that we didn’t choose. From height, heredity, birthplace and penis size to breakfast, clothes, condo and philosophy, we choose none of it. Your feeling that you do choose is a failure to pay attention to what it’s like to be you. We just aren’t able to think of or do anything that doesn’t occur to us to do. What does occur to us to do, comes from places we’ve never chosen and can’t control. We don’t think our thoughts before we think them.

So now you should be able to see, that freewill is an illusion, proven to not exist objectively or subjectively. I have to give credit to Sam Harris for all the arguments and explanation above.

As I said before, MGHOW Christian’s are many. It shows us you can outgrow women and still be a complete sucker. Don’t take it personally. Just go read books.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

‘Tearing down others beliefs’ is normal in the pursuit of truth. In science it’s rightly respected to be proven wrong! Only in reference to religious views, is there an immunity blanket and taboo against exposing poor judgment. Lazarus Long must be joking with his “tearing down others beliefs” crap and presumably, he has one of those gay bumper stickers…”Co-Exist.”

Tolerance, invented by malingering women, blacks and gays. Ironically, they surfaced the idea in defense against the religious doctrines that oppressed them, the same doctrines you’re defending with their invention. Hypocrisy 101.

We don’t respect people who think Earth is the center of the universe, or people who bleed patients thinking it will help them. Nor do we respect people who think masturbation causes blindness or that condoms have AIDS. We don’t respect people who would amputate a child needlessly or bury it in the foundation of a building. We don’t respect  people who own slaves or sacrifice animals. We don’t respect people who will burn others alive for imaginary crimes like witchcraft or a tornado. All these things are disrespected with the help of reason and science. Yet if Christianity had been strong to keep science down, we’d see all these things return and much worse. Religion alone, still enables millions of people to believe what only lunatics could believe on their own.

The time for tolerating and respecting beliefs are over. Religion deserves the same amount of scrutiny and veracity that we demand of all other discourses! Considering it’s track record of blood, still to this day, it should be held to a higher standard of proof than any human discourse! It’s a nasty and instinctive delusion ingrained in our mortal genetics, but now in 21st century, where knowledge and information is available, there’s no excuse to believe the incredibly dumb plot offered by Christianity. The same goes for it’s equally immoral predecessor and successor.

I hope many of you are kids here and have the excuse of adolescent naivety.  You need to put you thinking caps on and make use of the information that millions of people died for you to have.

 

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

Nothing will be  proven in these religious debates, we know that for sure..On very rare occasion one believer may start doubting his faith or an athiest’s mind is opened up a very small bit…. neither fully changes sides…I have been a stone mason many years and the best helper I ever had, was normal in every way until the age of 8 years old…At which time he was hit by a truck while bicycling, he had massive head trauma comatose for four months..his head was busted open brain matter exposed and damaged..He is the most likable, humble,and very intelligent 34 year old I have ever met, with half of the brain he was born with….You could talk till you were blue in the face and for years at a time and you would never convince his parents that there was no divine intervention going on in this mans life….Some beliefs are because of logical thinking which comes from confidence in your mental powers…confidence breeds arrogance…but some beliefs come from surviving and thriving in spite of unbelievable  traumatic  experience….Now I know this man personally and talk to him regular and I can attest to the fact that If I didn’t tell you, you would never know he is disabled…No matter where your beliefs come from, we must all agree, that we have the right to have them….the right to have our own beliefs also comes with the right not to be ridiculed  and called names such as irrational or blue pill or any other….The most  arrogant,  argumentative, and closed minded in my experience in these debates have always been, the non believers…But let their child go through an experience like I just described and I don’t think they would object if someone offered a prayer……

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[WolfgarParticipant 21]

John Doe you wrote “Don’t use shaming language. Be rational and logical. Throwing insults like a child does not work on these forums.”

Thank you for that kick.  I will do my best to refrain from throwing out insults as I did earlier.  My apologies to everyone on this forum.

Now to the issue of MGTOW and Christianity.

There is no contradiction that I can see.  Paul wrote:

(1Co 7:8)  I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
(1Co 7:9)  But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Paul, the author of a significant portion of the New Testament, says that it is good to remain unmarried.  The caveat here is that sex outside of marriage would be considered fornication.

So to answer the question “can a Christian be MGHOW” – yes.  And “his own way” for me is the Christian way.

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

To HarpoMason:

You start with pessimistically saying that nothing is ever proven in these debates and accuse atheists of having a closed mind. Perhaps you haven’t critically read my posts, which at the minimum, expose Christian faith for the obscene and unsubstantiated charade that it is. Your comment then goes on to completely miss the point I just made! You give us a sob story about a child who survived a horrific accident. Well, I hate to break it to you, divine intervention isn’t when neural plasticity helps victims. Perhaps your god should have not allowed a child to be smashed by a truck in the first place! Given all that your god doesn’t accomplish (24,000 other dead kids everyday!) I’d say your faith is morally reprehensible and obscene! Of course, then you move on to people’s “right” to believe, as if they have a choice in it, ignoring everything I said about the illusion of freewill. People have a “right” to keep their retarded opinions to themselves, as soon as they voice them, they’re ideas and beliefs are open season for criticism and verification. Maybe you missed that post too.

To Wolfgar:

Besides you misplaced brown nosing for John Doe, an illiterate, half-baked cult member, I have a message for you too. I think it was Henry Ford, in reference to his Model T, “You can choose any color, as long as it’s black.” Reminds me of your comment saying in effect, “I’ll go my way, as long as it’s Jesus’ way.” Are you f~~~ing kidding me! What part of Men Going Their Own Way don’t you understand? I’ll give you a hint, it’s so far in the opposite direction of what you said that I’m glad to tell you, you don’t belong here. Go join a church youth group where you’re free to love the chains that bind you and don’t have to think for yourself. You’re free to go Christ’s way which is obviously what all you fake MGTOW want to do.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

quote=32299]Darwin showed the world, an explanation for life (indisputable despite your lack of an education) that didn’t need a creator and this has nothing to do with the god debate? And how is 3 billion years of unconscionable waste, misdesign and extinction parallel with the will of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being? How convenient, after the church murders scientists and suppresses truth for centuries, to say “oh, evolution is compatible, it’s god’s tool.”[/quote]

Darwin gave a theory which is proven wrong.  It is a theory about diversity.  That is all.   You claim that  “3 billion years of unconscionable waste, misdesign and extinction parallel with the will of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being?” however, according to you this is all a product of evolution.  This means, according to your standards, evolution is flawed.

In regards to it being the will of a divine entity, that is false.  Humanity is responsible for all these things.  If you even study, “a” religion, you would have understood this simple concept.  Man’s fall has a lot to do with this.

Secular atheism and agnosticism has murdered way more priests/religious than church did scientists.  If you even read any history at all, figures such as Gallileo for example, were not treated as harshly as one might think.  He was under “house arrest” and treated relatively well.  You have to understand the geopolitical nature of religious governments now and in the past.

The church had/has a healthy relationship with science and philosophy.  Monasteries helped maintain much of the knowledge of antiquity through the dark ages. The jesuits had plenty of astronomers and “scientists” during galileo’s time.  The church oftened helped with funding scientific endeavors.  A geocentric understanding of the universe was held by all scientists during that time.  Catholic or not.  Galileo’s “inquisition” had less to do with religion and more to do with
the secular atmosphere.

“Many people wrongly believe Galileo proved heliocentricity. He could not answer the strongest argument against it, which had been made nearly two thousand years earlier by Aristotle: If heliocentrism were true, then there would be observable parallax shifts in the stars’ positions as the earth moved in its orbit around the sun. However, given the technology of Galileo’s time, no such shifts in their positions could be observed. It would require more sensitive measuring equipment than was available in Galileo’s day to document the existence of these shifts, given the stars’ great distance. Until then, the available evidence suggested that the stars were fixed in their positions relative to the earth, and, thus, that the earth and the stars were not moving in space—only the sun, moon, and planets were. ”

For more historical information about the church and science:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy

Terminal Meme wrote:

Furthermore, freewill doesn’t exist and could never exist in this universe.

Terminal Meme wrote:

Objectively, we know we live in a universe dictated in total, by cause and effect. All matter and energy (including all humans), since the big bang to the present, is one seemingly endless domino drop. Innumerable variables coincide to produce every event no matter how seemingly complex or simple. There is no escape, prior events solely direct all possible future outcomes. Only what can happen, will happen. And in instances that seem random or where we are currently unable to predict a cause, as in quantum physics, we see that the randomness is yet another variable beyond our control, an integral part of the chain itself. This objective view of a Deterministic universe is not compatible with the idea of freewill, period.

Objectively, we know we live in a universe dictated in total, by cause and effect.

I proved objectivism wrong in a seperate thread. Although the senses are important in aquiring truth, to say that they
are the only true means to knowledge is a fundamentally abstract thought. This means some truths are abstract in nature,
and can only be observed abstractly without the physical senses, thereby proving objectivism wrong.

With that being said, you claim the all things are destined through a number of variables we can never observe.  But
on the other hand, all knowledge can only be gained through the physical senses (objectivism).  Well if we cannot see
the variables how do we even know they are there “guiding us”.  The previous example of quantum physics, was meant to
point that we cannot observe all variables in our control.  However, according to objectivism, you would cannot acknowledge
what cannot be observed.  One can “assume” those variables are there, but you would be in a fundamental contradiction
with “occum’s” razor, which you seem to enjoy.

Well, one simple observation one can make, based on your argument, is that the universe apparently disagrees with itself otherwisethe “issue” of free will would not be a common philosophical discussion in this reality.  There is no need to decieve itself since there is no free will to choose between one conception or another.  So one cannot blame freewill as an illusion. Also the universe itself must be greatly inefficient, according to your standards, for even the concept of free will to exist.  So according to you the universe really doesn’t know what it is doing.  God doesn’t know what he is doing.  The universe doesn’t know what it is doing. Apparently noone knows what they are doing.  Since you are a materialistic “object” created by the universe, according to your standards, you do not even know what you are doing. 

Terminal Meme wrote:

Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) and tests done during brain surgery show us that a persons feeling that they have decided, their choice, comes several seconds after, the brain has already made the decision. Thoughts, desires and emotions simply rise in to consciousness uninvited. You have no more control over the next thing you think, than the next thing I write. Where is the freewill in that. We’re entirely subject to previous events that we had no control over and that we didn’t choose. From height, heredity, birthplace and penis size to breakfast, clothes, condo and philosophy, we choose none of it. Your feeling that you do choose is a failure to pay attention to what it’s like to be you. We just aren’t able to think of or do anything that doesn’t occur to us to do. What does occur to us to do, comes from places we’ve never chosen and can’t control. We don’t think our thoughts before we think them. So now you should be able to see, that freewill is an illusion, proven to not exist objectively or subjectively. I have to give credit to Sam Harris for all the arguments and explanation above.

Free will is not a feeling.  The “evidence” of the MRI in relation to free will only acknowledges when people begin to feel after a choice is made.  If anything, this is proof that free will is not affected by feelings or any objective stimuli.  It exists on its own terms You said:  The brain makes a decision.  Then, according to the MRI, the brain begins to “feel” that decision.  If anything this study shows that free will cannot be objectively studied, because it claims the “decision” exists at a seperate time than the observable change in brain activity.

We don’t think our thoughts before we think them.

But according to the study you quoted, we do.

If I do not have the ability to choose, then how can I “fail” at paying attention.  If I was “destined” not to pay attention than that cannot be counted as a failure. If anything to pay attention is an act of free will.

You claim I am wrong.  But according to you the universe made me this way. So the universe must wrong and you must be
right according to you.  But the universe made you too, and it is wrongly created as you stated.  So you are wrong by your own admission.
Okay you seem to prefer personal attacks, so let me have my turn. You are just angry at everyone and everything aren’t you?I bet of all the things you hate, you hate yourself the most.  Why? Because of all the human “flaws” you listed prior, you have most of them on the list, in one respect or another.  You are inefficient, according to your own standards, and that”inefficiency” disqualifies you from doing anything good or worthwile. You claim the need for destruction in order to find truth, but of all the things you want destroyed I am will to bet you put yourself on top of that list.

You quote alot of authors as “speaking truth”, but you cannot seem to come to it on your own terms.  I bet you hate
yourself for it.  After all, the need to read the thoughts of others only proves to your own unoriginality.  According
to your own standards, you are useless and inefficient because of this and you hate yourself for it. If you didn’t hate
yourself, you would be a hypocrite.  Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, listen to someone that is either a
hypocrite or hates himself?
The ability to memorize only means you can memorize.  It does not mean you can critically think on your own without someone else’s guidance.  You need to quote other’s because you never had an originally thought come to you from your own observations. Some else always has to do the work for you, making you the accident.  This is only true if I apply “your” standards to you. 

Wolfgar wrote:

John Doe you wrote “Don’t use shaming language. Be rational and logical. Throwing insults like a child does not work on these forums.” Thank you for that kick. I will do my best to refrain from throwing out insults as I did earlier. My apologies to everyone on this forum.

This wasn’t directed towards you.  The issue with the “insults” is that they take up space, and on a forum efficiency is good because it prevents “confusion”.  And it is less annoying dealing with ad hominum attack during a debate.  A lot of confusion, on both sides, comes from long over winded posts.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Terminal Meme wrote:

You start with pessimistically saying that nothing is ever proven in these debates and accuse atheists of having a closed mind. Perhaps you haven’t critically read my posts, which at the minimum, expose Christian faith for the obscene and unsubstantiated charade that it is.

You didn’t expose anything.  You just gave a long list of things you didn’t like.

Terminal Meme wrote:

Of course, then you move on to people’s “right” to believe, as if they have a choice in it, ignoring everything I said about the illusion of freewill.

Don’t be a hypocrite.  You ignored my argument about the illusion of the “illusion of freewill.”  And a bunch of counter points on evolution, etc.

Terminal Meme wrote:

Besides you misplaced brown nosing for John Doe, an illiterate, half-baked cult member,

Why don’t you give us another quote about how we are wrong from the long list of author’s who have their own cult following.  Better yet, instead of quoting other’s why don’t you come up with your own observations.  But that would be an issue because then you would have to write your own thoughts instead of copy and pasting others.  Who is the real illiterate one?

 

[Anonymous 43]

I’ll stick my ass in this fire one more time. In the books of Matthiew, Mark, Luke and John, I found all I need to know about the “man” Jesus, and his “solitary” link to “GOD”. It’s an “order” that can only be received by faith, I have this “faith”, I need no “proof”, there’s too many lies and faults within “mans” understanding of the universe.

Please retort: How far is up?

How far back does time go?

How far forward does time go?

Where did matter/energy originate?

Chicken or egg, which came first?

Unless anyone can answer “these” specific questions; I have no faith in the intelligence of mankind, or the excuses he makes to himself to justify his own existence.

5 simple little questions, please retort on these questions with legitimate and logical answers…….

[Terminal MemeParticipant 57]

MgTower:   All of your questions can be answered by reading Brian Greene’s The Elegant Universe 

It’s a great book. Some of it’s chapters are over our heads unless you’re an Astrophysicist but the book is directed at explanations for normal people. In a nut shell, the Big Bang created spacetime itself, approximately 13.8 billion years ago. This is where all matter and energy came from. All the periodic elements formed in that process; first it was only Hydrogen and Helium. More cosmic processes then gave way to other gases and heavier elements. How far is up,  is roughly 7 billion light years depending on where you’re standing on Earth. Depending on what physicists discover about the link between relativity and quantum mechanics, we’ll know how far “forward” time goes. Truthfully, time may not be in motion considering our perspective and the nature of spacetime so your question may be irrelevant. As far as the chicken and egg, the rooster came first pal. 🙂 It’s another evolved animal we share a link to if you go back far enough.

It should be noted, especially for John Doe’s sake, that everything I’ve just written is backed by mountains of indisputable evidence. 

In reply to John Doe, don’t bother addressing me. I’m done reading your bulls~~~ which is always written poorly and is incomprehensible. What I am able to gather from you “smacking your keyboard with your monkey fingers” is always a gross misrepresentation of what I’ve said. You’re about as dumb as they come, sorry sir, but I’m ashamed you are one of our ranks.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

Terminal

Perhaps your god should have not allowed a child to be smashed by a truck in the first place!

Dare you to find a post where I openly expressed my beliefs for or against religion…You Know nothing about my religious beliefs because I refrain from expressing them for this very purpose….You may find where I express my opinions about the right to have your own beliefs..but I am careful to say no more than “I do have faith”….In what?   Well that’s my business..So your assuming my religious beliefs without knowing what they are…

I’d say your faith is morally reprehensible and obscene! Of course, then you move on to people’s “right” to believe, as if they have a choice in it, ignoring everything I said about the illusion of freewill. People have a “right” to keep their retarded opinions to themselves, as soon as they voice them, they’re ideas and beliefs are open season for criticism and verification.

A retarded opinion is one made based on assumption…don’t criticize my religious beliefs until you know what they are…My post was bait  and you took it and ran with your assumptions…Proving the arrogance of most atheist….No where did I express my religious beliefs in the post your criticizing…

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Author]

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