This topic contains 55 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by 
Jim01 3 years, 4 months ago.
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Unlike a lot of the men here, I haven’t sworn off relationships, dating, and sex. I don’t think that the female sex is the devil incarnate; and since there are over 3.5 billion women in this world, all of whom individuals with unique tastes and biases, I’m certain that there exists at least a couple whom I could get along and be happy with.
Problem is, I’ll probably never even meet them, because it’s gotten to the point where I really just can’t be bothered.
I’ll see a cute girl somewhere, and there’s one voice that says: “Why don’t you go and talk to her?” and another voice that replies: “Because what will come of it? Best case scenario is that she gives you her number, you call her, and the first miracle—she answers—another miracle—she agrees to meet you—another miracle—she actually shows up—another miracle—you get along—another miracle—she either agrees and follows through to meet you a second time or has sex with you—and the biggest miracle—you find someone you really like to be with. Worst case scenario, and the most likely, is that you talk to her, it feels like something is happening, she seems like an interesting person, but it’s really just a facade, and she wants nothing to do with you—and you’ve lost ten minutes you’ll never get back.”
A few years ago, the first voice was louder. Now, the second voice is overpowering.
PUAs say that women want to be talked to, and they appear distant only because they like it when men pursue them. Yet to me, the thought of putting in time and effort talking to women (and, make no mistake, interacting with women and dating are WORK), which will serve only to stroke their egos, and possibly give them an excuse to call me a creep, seems like a tremendous waste of time.
It’s a game, and the expected value is WAY too low. It’s negative.
And the rationalization “it’s just a numbers game; keep at it, because you have to get only one to be happy” is holding less and less weight. “You only have to win once.” Yeah, well you also have to win the lottery “only” once to become stupidly rich, but the expected value of playing the lottery is a negative number, so even if you do “win,” you’ve still lost. Lottery tickets aren’t free.
I want sex and company, but I don’t want/can’t put in the effort to get it. Does that make me a “loser who can’t get laid”? Maybe, but I’m caring less and less. If the public library next door hosts a singles dating night, if a friend wants to set me up, if I get a girl’s number, if something happens such that the pursuit of a romantic prospect involves a minimal amount of effort, I’ll go, I’ll agree, I’ll call, but if she’s not pursuing me as much as I’m pursuing her, I can’t muster the will. That’s fine that women want a guy to call back after she doesn’t return her call or flakes—she can find someone else, but it’s not going to be me. (And she also shouldn’t get surprised later if she finds that she wakes up one day and realizes she can’t respect this guy, who keeps feeding her attention even when she ignores him.)
Sorry for the ramble. If you’ve gotten this far, thanks for reading. Wonderful website you’ve got here, wonderful people, but so much pain.
". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée
I want sex and company
Are you sure you want the company ?
In a World of Justin Beibers Be a Johnny Cash
Unlike a lot of the men here, I haven’t sworn off relationships, dating, and sex.
Here’s something you might find surprising…. I haven’t *sworn off* it either.
But hear me out – before anyone says “that’s not MGTOW!!”Like you, I just can’t be bothered for many reasons. I’m too busy. or whatever…. but I don’t need to “swear off” it, because all I need to do is something else.
Work with me some more…..
I don’t think that the female sex is the devil incarnate
Nobody really does. Just like they don’t think the female sex is all angels.
Wouldn’t it be silly, unrealistic and impossible to think EITHER?It doesn’t even matter if SOME women are “like that”.
The LAW is “like that”.Comedian Jim Carrey was civil-sued yesterday because his ex-girlfiend from 2015 committed suicide by swallowing some pills, but now in 2016 her new husband is trying to blame HIM in her “wrongful death” as a result of her own actions. Even in DEATH , the bitch – and law – will try to blame a man for something she did to HERSELF.
Why won’t they sue Robbin Williams ex-wives for his “wrongful death” suicide as a result of all the alimony??
I’m certain that there exists at least a couple whom I could get along and be happy with.
Does it matter now how “happy” he was with her??
How the f~~~ can a man be “happy” knowing she could MARRY SOMEONE ELSE, then kill herself and he could blamed for it in the future. How happy can a man be starting his life over again, rebuilding himself after a divorce…. and 30 years later, the bitch will use the law to come after him for money.
You have to wonder, why would a man listen to the voice in his head that says “why don’t you go over and talk to her”? There are too many reasons not to go over and talk to her. EXCELLENT reasons. And those reasons are actually BETTER than any reason there is to go over and talk to her.
—
So we don’t need to “swear off” women , dating, cohabitation or marriage. Women – and the law – have just totally failed to make it compelling on any level.
It’s a game, and the expected value is WAY too low. It’s negative.
It’s really not your/my/our opinion, attitude or outlook at all.
It’s the way things really are.Not only are you right on the money with your post. But you would have to be f~~~ing INSANE to listen to any voice that says “why don’t you go over and talk to her?”.
MANSWER: “Do you want all the reasons NOW? How much time do you have?”
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.“…wonderful people, but so much pain.”
Yes. Exactly. That’s why we’re here. But we’re certainly not a hopeless lot.
As proof that we’re not all here to wallow in our pain — our very real pain — I give you Tiga K’s good-by post, “A Goodbye of Sorts“. Tiga K came here angry and in pain, like most of us. And after reading and talking and posting he’s ready to move on from consuming daily MGTOW and get on with his life. We’ll surly miss him, but his leaving is part of the cycle we should expect in the years to come. Men will come, learn, heal and then leave. And they’ll leave as better men.
Mission accomplished.
I often wonder if I’ve reached my own MGTOW saturation point. Time will tell.
Anyway, great post you wrote here today.
Seems to me that a MGTOW that dates and has relationships with women isn’t MGTOW. He’s still chasing skirt, competing for attention, buying drinks, paying for dinners and movies and will eventually get maneuvered into romance and marriage and servitude. It’s like the alcoholic that thinks, “Just one little drink won’t hurt”.
Here’s something you might find surprising…. I haven’t *sworn off* it either.
But hear me out – before anyone says “that’s not MGTOW!!”
Like you, I just can’t be bothered for many reasons. I’m too busy. or whatever…. but I don’t need to “swear off” it, because all I need to do is something else.
Work with me some more…..
Rockmaninoff wrote:
I don’t think that the female sex is the devil incarnate
Nobody really does. Just like they don’t think the female sex is all angels.
Wouldn’t it be silly, unrealistic and impossible to think EITHER?
It doesn’t even matter if SOME women are “like that”.
The LAW is “like that”.
You know Jim Carrey was civil-sued yesterday because his ex-girlfiend whom he broke up with in 2015 committed suicide by swallowing some pills, but now her husband is trying to blame HIM in the “wrongful death” as a result of her own actions. Even in DEATH , the bitch – and law – will try to blame a man for something she did to HERSELF.
Why won’t they sue Robbin Williams ex-wives for his “wrongful death” suicide as a result of all the alimony??
Rockmaninoff wrote:
I’m certain that there exists at least a couple whom I could get along and be happy with.
Does it matter now how “happy” he was with her??
—
So we don’t need to “swear off” women , dating, cohabitation or marriage. Women – and the law – have just totally failed to make it compelling on any level.
Rockmaninoff wrote:
It’s a game, and the expected value is WAY too low. It’s negative.
It’s really not your/my/our opinion, attitude or outlook at all.
It’s the way things really are.Keymaster, everybody gives you compliments around here. They say you have the best explanation’s. They say your logic is precise. They appreciate your intellect.
When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to reflect.
The LAW is “like that”.
Exactly. If the law wasn’t written in such a way that its so easy for women to legally assault me and financially ruin me, I might be a little more inclined to want a long term partner. As it stands now I just know way too many guys who thought they got a good catch just to see her turn the courts against him on her way out the door just because she could.
As it is now I still plan on dating in the future…I’m just putting it on hold for a few more years until I can retire and move abroad. I plan on moving around a bit in retirement anyhow…living in some different countries…I could just find a woman at every pit stop I make and date her in her country with 0% chance of marriage or taking her back here. Would it be that unreasonable to pretty much have a relationship on the grounds of “I’ll take care of you as long as you play nice…if you stop playing nice you get shown the door and if you want to start drama for me I’ll just ghost you and move out of the country.” The alternative is to have a relationship here that is essentially I get to be a slave for some c~~~ who can kick the stool out from under me and watch me hang whenever she feels like it. If I’m going to play the game I certainly want to make sure the ball is in my court rather than someone else having the advantage over me, because we all know an actual equal relationship does not legally exist.
I want sex and company, but I don’t want/can’t put in the effort to get it. Does that make me a “loser who can’t get laid”?
It doesn’t make you a loser, you just managed a risk. There are much better things to do with your time than chase after a unicorn. If the reward for sex and company was worth the risk, you would be putting in effort to obtain it. My thoughts are the same as yours, I want sex, I want to feel them, soft skin, soft hair, but I know it doesn’t come without an enormous amount of bulls~~~, frustration and risk.
Anonymous5It is odd. How I get that little voice in my head too except it says: (not in a negative way) i see a cute girl ” man I would love to ask her out to watch a sunset or something ” than slowly after “Wait what the f~~~, why? I don’t give two s~~~s about that”. I guess I agree with the general message from your post. It really made me think. I feel sometimes am stuck in a battle between my true nature (my gut instinct survival and envole mechanism) and my body (the need for sex and human contact). One has been clearly more important to me than the other. But that said I am still learning and I felt I learned something very important on what you said.
They appreciate your intellect.
I appreciate Rachmaninoff and have an extra fondness for him. He dedicated a musical piece to us – Chopin of all things – and he’s only in his early 20s. If we can help ONE man see that he has a great life FULL of potential and promise ahead, and he knows his head is screwed on RIGHT, then we have succeeded.
@rockmaninoff I hope you don’t mind if I talk about you like you’re not here.
Smiles.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.
Anonymous54I personaly have sworn off women. But Ive have had a lifetime of experience with them. But I would never expect younger guys to swear them off.A young Man wants to expierience life,get burned a little,earn a few scars even. I allways just advise that you look at it like a stunt. Its dangerous. Risk vs benifite. Maxamize beinifite.minamize risk.But hell ,live life!
I personaly have sworn off women. But Ive have had a lifetime of experience with them. But I would never expect younger guys to swear them off.A young Man wants to expierience life,get burned a little,earn a few scars even. I allways just advise that you look at it like a stunt. Its dangerous. Risk vs benifite. Maxamize beinifite.minamize risk.But hell ,live life!
Perfect OS, Perfect.
When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to reflect.
He dedicated a musical piece to us – Chopin of all things – and he’s only in his early 20s
I posted another Chopin. Did you see it?
". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée
I posted another Chopin. Did you see it?
Stunning Rochmaninoff. Incredible talent my friend, made me emotional.
When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to reflect.
Seems to me that a MGTOW that dates and has relationships with women isn’t MGTOW. He’s still chasing skirt, competing for attention, buying drinks, paying for dinners and movies and will eventually get maneuvered into romance and marriage and servitude. It’s like the alcoholic that thinks, “Just one little drink won’t hurt”.
You can date and have a relationship of sorts without doing any of the stuff you listed afterwards. We are not all alcoholics. Some of us have never drank and like it that way. Some of us can have 1 here and there without overdoing it. Others can control themselves and must stay away.
Personally, I’m open to dating, and do on a rare occasion, but I have zero expectation and put very little effort into it. I’m only 43, so I will likely have another relationship at some point, but it’s extremely unlikely it would get serious. The last girlfriend I had a few years ago was a relatively good fit for me. Similar values, nice big boobs, fun, kids same age as mine. 6 months in, once she started talking about having our kids meet and trying to slip in the “I love yous”, I was ready to move on. It’s going to take quite a bit more then what she had to get me in trouble again.
Ok. Then do it.
“I’ll take care of you as long as you play nice…if you stop playing nice you get shown the door and if you want to start drama for me I’ll just ghost you and move out of the country.”
It’s amazing how low the bar is set for women. “Play nice, and you get my love and affection.” I even remarked earlier that, at least for me, a woman doesn’t have to be smart, or have to be able to hold a stimulating conversation, or even be interesting! She just has to be nice to be around, and she can do that by saying nothing.
I appreciate Rachmaninoff and have an extra fondness for him.
The feeling is mutual. If you’re ever in Toronto, I’ll tell you where to find the best burgers, the best pizza, and the best brownies (but not drinks; alcohol is marked up and taxed up the ass in Ontario).
". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée
She just has to be nice to be around, and she can do that by saying nothing.
Wait, this quote might explain MGTOW and the billion posts contained in the site.
When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to reflect.
The feeling is mutual. If you’re ever in Toronto
That may happen sooner than later. Possibly end of November.
Pretend I didn’t say that though. Too early for prediction.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.I’ll see a cute girl somewhere, and there’s one voice that says: “Why don’t you go and talk to her?” and another voice that replies: “Because what will come of it? Best case scenario is that she gives you her number, you call her, and the first miracle—she answers—another miracle—she agrees to meet you—another miracle—she actually shows up—another miracle—you get along—another miracle—she either agrees and follows through to meet you a second time or has sex with you—and the biggest miracle—you find someone you really like to be with. Worst case scenario, and the most likely, is that you talk to her, it feels like something is happening, she seems like an interesting person, but it’s really just a facade, and she wants nothing to do with you—and you’ve lost ten minutes you’ll never get back.”
Which is why you ignore her and just go about doing whatever the f~~~ you want, no f~~~s given. They’ll approach you.
Yet to me, the thought of putting in time and effort talking to women (and, make no mistake, interacting with women and dating are WORK), which will serve only to stroke their egos, and possibly give them an excuse to call me a creep, seems like a tremendous waste of time.
Which is why you don’t date them. Dating is just a social ritual on the path to marriage. Why would you want to do that?
But that doesn’t mean you can’t go do things or have fun with women. You can go out and do fun things with male friends, and it’s not a date. The same is true for women. She’s not your date. She’s your friend.
As an aside, the instant you friend zone a woman, she will start plotting to get your c~~~ in her. I guarantee it.
It’s a game, and the expected value is WAY too low. It’s negative.
If it’s a game, then it’s one you win by not playing. But I personally think it’s not a game except to those who try to make such of it. Getting laid is not “winning” any more than carving a twisty road on your bike or enjoying the view from the top of a mountain. It’s an pleasurably entertaining way to spend your free time, but that’s all it is. If any woman tries to make it more than that, walk right the f~~~ away from her.
Not getting trapped into paying alimony or child support or any other such legal obligation: that’s winning.
He’s still chasing skirt, competing for attention, buying drinks, paying for dinners and movies and will eventually get maneuvered into romance and marriage and servitude.
None of which have anything to do with getting laid or doing other entertaining things with women.
Quite the opposite, really.
As an aside, the instant you friend zone a woman, she will start plotting to get your c~~~ in her. I guarantee it.
I don’t know . . . I like to be up front with my intentions. A friend of mine said he’s my friend because he found my genuineness to be refreshing and awesome. I wouldn’t want my relationships to be predicated on anything else.
I guess this is why my dating life has been so lackluster.
". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée
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