Alcoholism – disease or not?

[SamsquanchParticipant 4226]

Good topic Joller. I come from a line of alcoholics/addicts, I’m one myself. For me, it has more to do with the choice to drink/smoke/use drugs.

I’ll get bombed about once per week on the weekend. I don’t drink during the week, because I know if I start, I’ll go until I’m bombed. So that is definitely a trait of alcoholism. But when I wake up hungover the next day, the last thing I want is a drink.

Also, during the week I’ll start to have phantom tastes of beer, and I don’t give into those urges. Again, I’m an addict, if one is good, then 10 is better. And that can be applied to food, sex, whatever.

I think the question of it being a disease or not has to be looked at on an individual basis since everyone is different in how they drink. I know I show alcoholic tendencies, yet I am still able to abstain during the week. I also understand the medical definition and how alcoholism is defined as a disease. I can keep myself from drinking, but some people need 3-4 drinks to even function. I can’t imagine being in that state of mind all the time.

If you tell someone it’s not their fault and they don’t have a choice but to drink then you take away that responsibility and that person will happily drink themselves to death.

^^ I agree with you on that idea. I had very little self discipline growing up, still a work in progress.

However my father, who is a recovering alcoholic, been sober for 25+ years, went through AA, agreed with the idea that it wasn’t his fault, and still took responsibility and was able to stop drinking.

So maybe people who say it’s a disease and can’t stop, subconsciously don’t want to stop.

I believe that if you do want to get sober, you have the free will to do so.

[Anonymous 1]

@mudwhiskle – good post, mate.

You mentioned your father is an alcoholic and been sober for 25 years so he’s made a choice not to have a “disease”, but a disease simply can’t be a choice.

There is always a choice to drink or not, ALWAYS.

[TattooDaveParticipant 6952]

As a few of you know I have had my run-ins with alcohol. Not sure if it’s a disease but I know there’s a realistic alternative to 12 step programs I just found out even though it’s been around for awhile.

Starting on Monday for me

I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d

[Freeman_KParticipant 3524]

yeah, alcoholism is a huge disease. I watched my old man nearly drinking himself to death. Usually alcoholics also refuse to accept that their problem becomes problem of everyone in their life, eventually and inevitably. I would rather spend my days with nagging feminazi than with drunk asshole.

The choices we make, not the chances we take, determine our destiny

[Anonymous 1]

Freeman_K wrote:

Usually alcoholics also refuse to accept that their problem

Yeah that’s where it differs. I don’t know of any cancer patient who refuses to accept they have an illness.

With any disease, you can’t​ just choose to get better or die. With alcoholism you can make a concious to end it and save your own life.

[TattooDaveParticipant 6952]

Joller

I truly believe the conventional model of a disease has been outdated by nearly a decade. Look at the David Sinclair model of recovery from alcoholism. It’s called extinguishment. In other words it allows you to extinguish the addiction to alcohol. This is something I am seeking. I went down the whole disease (problem), program of recovery (reaction), not drinking but having a s~~~y life (solution). Don’t believe everything you read especially if it’s in a big book called Alcoholics Anonymous.

What is accepted in today’s culture AZ normal is most likely an occultic nature. The guy who wrote The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous did so with the use of a Ouija board I mean what kind of scientific advice or research is that. The book is full of flaws I studied it for 28 years like a good little drone.

The reason people drink themselves to death is not because of alcohol but because alcohol is available AZ the only legal remedy.

Instead of attending High School I used LSD for a couple of years but the gateway drug was alcohol and tobacco.

Best of luck in the search for truth God knows we could all use it

I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d

[Anonymous 1]

Tattoo Dave

I respectfully disagree. AA has a ridiculously high failure rate and it simply doesn’t work for most.

On the contrary, I think it might be you who’s be believing everthing he’s reading in this respect.

As I’ve said before, you label it a disease a remove the responsibility and that’s a dangerous thing.

Wrote this quickly and would have preferred to written out a more detailed reply but I’m meeting a mate in a minute.

[Anonymous 1]

TattooDave wrote:

Best of luck in the search for truth God knows we could all use it

When I find it, I’ll share it on here, brother.

I know you’d do the same.

By the way – You strike me as a man that likes a few beers but isn’t laying face down on the kitchen floor in a pool of vomit on a Monday night.

I know you’re retired so that could be a Monday morning if you like ha.

If you enjoy a few beers then don’t remove the simple pleasures from your life. If it’s killing you, then stop.

[Freeman_KParticipant 3524]

Anonymous wrote:

That’s also why women don’t even like really fit men. They claim they do, but when they see a guy that is actually fit they are intimidated and uninterested, because they know he doesn’t have the destructive habits they are all excited by

Agree to that, nice little red pill hidden in that aspect of female nature.

The choices we make, not the chances we take, determine our destiny

[Freeman_KParticipant 3524]

Anonymous wrote:

ccept they have an illness.

With any disease, you can’t​ just choose to get better or die. With alcoholism you can make a concious to end it and save your own life.

Yeah well they all say they that it is their decision right ? Many simply cant decide and will die before they decide or will die later as a consequence of drinking.

Now there are many different charts to this topic but in general also with my experience alcohol is in league of its own when it comes to how much damage you are doing to other people.

The choices we make, not the chances we take, determine our destiny

[TattooDaveParticipant 6952]

Anonymous wrote:

Tattoo Dave

I respectfully disagree. AA has a ridiculously high failure rate and it simply doesn’t work for most.

On the contrary, I think it might be you who’s be believing everthing he’s reading in this respect.

As I’ve said before, you label it a disease a remove the responsibility and that’s a dangerous thing.

Wrote this quickly and would have preferred to written out a more detailed reply but I’m meeting a mate in a minute.

I am making the point the alcoholics Anonymous program is very outdated and has absolutely no scientific evidence unlike the Sinclair model which can show 78% success.

Last time I checked Alcoholics Anonymous had a failure rate of about 95% I would never bet on those kind of odds unless the payoff was huge. You’re right joller I don’t end up in my own puke but the reason that I want to cut down is because I think my life would be better. I don’t know if I have a disease I just love my beer

I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d

[TattooDaveParticipant 6952]

Unfortunately Alcoholics Anonymous took over the medical profession and court system. You could be a 21 year old kid and sentenced 2 90 meetings! At least when you get raped in prison you know it.

Don’t let cognitive dissonance ruin your day.

I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d

[Anonymous 1]

Dave – thanks for that video. Made me laugh, and I completely agree with everything you said.

I’m gonna have a look at the Sinclair method video you posted, tomorrow, about to shoot off out.

Have yourself have a Guinness​ and relax. It seems you might not be drinking many more ha.

[TattooDaveParticipant 6952]

The extinguishment method seems to be a good idea. Knock all the joy out of any addiction and it ceases to become an addiction.

Naloxone. 25mg first two days 50mg/day after that, 1 hour before you will drink. I’m getting the prescription on Monday I would love to be able to just have a few beers that’s all I ever wanted to do since 1973.

I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d

[Anonymous 1]

TattooDave wrote:

Naloxone. 25mg first two days 50mg/day after that, 1 hour before you will drink. I’m getting the prescription on Monday I would love to be able to just have a few beers that’s all I ever wanted to do since 1973.

Please let us know how you get on. Would be very interested to hear about it.

[Anonymous 1]

Diseases are caused by bacteria.

AA tells people that alcoholism is a disease because it fits in with the narrative that they propagate. AA takes the responsibility of alcoholism away from the individual and places it on God, and it convinces people that they have no control over drinking. It is obviously true that some people cannot control their drinking, but I do not personally believe that is the case with all people.

Some people need this type of outlook to recover from alcoholism and live a normal life. If that were the case, I would never undermine that by telling somebody they’re not an alcoholic. However, I would tell them that they don’t have a disease unless they consider yeast s~~~ to be bacteria.

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

An addiction usually means that you have big problem on your hands. Regardless of whether it is yourself, or someone in your family or circle of friends.

Labeling it as a disease does not change this. You still have to cope with the reality of problems that accompanies an addiction.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Anonymous 1]

Anonymous wrote:

Diseases are caused by bacteria.

AA tells people that alcoholism is a disease because it fits in with the narrative that they propagate. AA takes the responsibility of alcoholism away from the individual and places it on God, and it convinces people that they have no control over drinking. It is obviously true that some people cannot control their drinking, but I do not personally believe that is the case with all people.

Well said.

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

TattooDave wrote:

Last time I checked Alcoholics Anonymous had a failure rate of about 95% I would never bet on those kind of odds unless the payoff was huge.

Depends how you define “failure rate” – if it means rate of people who just show up to meetings and dont DO THE STEPS, then sure.

But that’s like saying “failure rate” of a workout plan is 95%, if it means rate of people who just READ the workout plan and dont DO IT IN GYM

[surfdude12Participant 4103]

Alcoholism is a physical disease caused by abnormal enzymes in the liver.

Normal drinker: Their liver enzymes convert Alcohol to Carbon Dioxide/Sugar/Water = alcohol is depressant = they stop after 2-3

Alcoholic: They don’t have the liver enzymes of normal drinker, thus their liver converts Alcohol to Acetone (Neuorotoxin) that stimulates endorphins in brain and gives you super high feeling = alcohol is stimulant = they can’t stop

Thus, alcoholic body does NOT process alcohol same way as Normal drinker. They dont’ have the liver enzymes in same quantity as normal drinker. THus, their body can’t break alcohol all the way down to Carbon Dioxide/Sugar, as with NOrmal drinker.

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