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harpo-my-“SON” 2 years ago.
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AA takes the responsibility of alcoholism away from the individual and places it on God
If that were true, AA wouldn’t have 12 steps that people MUST DO in order to not drink.
Surf dude.
I have listened to Joe and Charlie for at least as long as they’ve been out that’s a theory that has been soundly defeated.
I would say one thing about Alcoholics Anonymous. If you sober up a horse thief you get a sober horse thief. Sure everybody has problems everybody has an upbringing that they wish was different but facts are facts and Alcoholics Anonymous fails the test in every single way despite the fact that courts and institutions have been taught that Alcoholics Anonymous is the only way.
I don’t want to sound like a dick but I do anyway. I have the basis for my own Theory based on 30 years of experience. Give me all the evidence I’d love to look at it.
Conversely you’re following a religion that was started by Woodrow Wilson Bill Wilson’s relative. Woodrow Wilson was the one who signed the law allowing the Federal Reserve. Like what can you get behind that. Bill Wilson did nothing except compile information he did not author the big book. The cognitive dissonance is deafening
Kind of sounds like brainwashing to me and to be honest with you the first time I went to a meeting my brain was not in need of a washing, maybe a drying
I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d
does a sick person walk themselves into an off license and request a litre of vodka because they aren’t well?
If they’re alcoholic, yes. The alcoholic disease has 2 parts:
1. Physical allergy: This is the part that makes it impossible for them to stop drinking once they start. Once they have the first drink, it sets off a physical craving for more alcohol not present in normal drinkers. “Allergy” usually means “abnormal reaction” to something with a physical manifestation, e.g. skin rash, watery eyes, diarrhea. In this case, the craving is itself the physical manifestation of the allergy.
2. Mental Obsession: if #1 above was the only problem, there is easy solution – just don’t drink, right? Just don’t take the first drink! If you don’t the first drink, then the craving in #1 above never kicks in! Yet alcoholics will literally FORGET what alcohol does to them and pick up the first drink. This would never happen with a hot stove after touching it! I’ll never forget how much that burned! Yet alcoholics will always forget how much alcohol burns them. Hence why they go into the off license and buy the drink.
Is it enabling to tell someone they’re drinking because they have an illness?
If they’re alcoholic, enabling comes in when we protect them from the consequences of their actions, e.g. let them stay at our house even though they refuse to get help, calling a boss and lying that they’re sick and can’t make it today, funding their drinking, etc.
It does sound like you’re a qualified professional individual. Do you have a degree have you studied this other than your own anecdotal evidence?
Chuck just go back to Pasadena
I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d
I have listened to Joe and Charlie for at least as long as they’ve been out that’s a theory that has been soundly defeated.
What do you mean by “soundly defeated”?
If you sober up a horse thief you get a sober horse thief.
Agreed. Just putting the plug in the jug accomplishes nothing. More must be done. Like just parking your car in the gym parking lot without going into the gym.
you’re following a religion…
what religion is that?
The religion of saying that a lightbulb or a doorknob has more power than you. That’s the kind of religion that no man needs.
Dude you sound like a newcomer. The men who are here are not here to be consumed by a power greater than themselves. We are here because we know we have the power ourselves and we’re not willing to give that away.
If you want to worship a lightbulb, well that’s certainly one way to live your life. I’m just giving you the best advice I heard in 30 years if you can’t accept God of your higher power then just go ahead and worship a light bulb or a door knob what the hell is that. Doesn’t sound like science doesn’t sound like religion just sounds like insanity. Oh wait a minute that you’re supposed to get rid of InStep two.
I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d
Surf dude.
I have listened to Joe and Charlie for at least as long as they’ve been out that’s a theory that has been soundly defeated.
I would say one thing about Alcoholics Anonymous. If you sober up a horse thief you get a sober horse thief. Sure everybody has problems everybody has an upbringing that they wish was different but facts are facts and Alcoholics Anonymous fails the test in every single way despite the fact that courts and institutions have been taught that Alcoholics Anonymous is the only way.
I don’t want to sound like a dick but I do anyway. I have the basis for my own Theory based on 30 years of experience. Give me all the evidence I’d love to look at it.
Conversely you’re following a religion that was started by Woodrow Wilson Bill Wilson’s relative. Woodrow Wilson was the one who signed the law allowing the Federal Reserve. Like what can you get behind that. Bill Wilson did nothing except compile information he did not author the big book. The cognitive dissonance is deafening
Kind of sounds like brainwashing to me and to be honest with you the first time I went to a meeting my brain was not in need of a washing, maybe a drying
Sorry Tattoo Dave, but your facts are wrong. A/A became successful AND WORLDWIDE phenomena BECAUSE of its foundation in Christianity. Before the Big Blue Book came into being, AA was initiated with two books; The Bible and Oswald Chambers, “His Utmost For His Highest” which, IN FACT, is the second most popular devotional in history (The first being, “Streams in the Desert”).
The reason AA is failing now is because they are trying to remove God/Jesus Christ FROM AA.
My Uncle has been in AA over thirty years and he and I are very close. I was in AA for a few years many years ago as well.
My ex-wife was a psychiatric nurse and she said that all the non AA programs have a very high failure rate. Whereas AA has proven itself over and over and over again. Unless, of course, as I have stated, there is a movement afoot to remove the appeal to God. This will result in its failure.
With all due respect, Tattoo Dave, your facts are wrong, not partially, but totally.
God bless, Michael
Everybody has an opinion usually based on what they think is fact. put on the sunglasses. Perhaps then you will see clearly the truth.
The Sinclair method introduces the extinguish of addiction. To the best of my knowledge the best of my 60 years experience I cannot see Alcoholics Anonymous proclaiming that they have anywhere near more than a 5% success rate. If you want to debate the issue I have all the facts and apparently you have all the rhetoric.
Look it’s very easy to get drawn into a cult and believe that your worldview is right but often times you are mistaken in this instance you are completely mistaken.
Watch and wait for the miracle
I can see their heads have been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth. Bob d
Anonymous1AA takes the responsibility of alcoholism away from the individual and places it on God
If that were true, AA wouldn’t have 12 steps that people MUST DO in order to not drink.
Have you been to an AA meeting before? I have. I know for a fact they remove the responsibility from the individual and place it upon God. They say, “You realized you had no control over it. It is not your fault. You were born that way.”
They tell one to take it to God every time one has the urge to drink, because only God can remove character faults such as a lack of control. The first 2 steps demonstrate this. Every sponsor I’ve ever met has said that they only have the power to conquer alcohol through God, because alone they just don’t have the ability to do so.
Everyone in AA will tell you that without God or a higher power, the program won’t work. That’s the main reason why I have always disliked the program. It works for people who are religious and okay with relocating the responsibility of drinking. I’m not hating on people that need AA to stay sober; I would always encourage them to stay active in the program if that were the case. I’m just saying it doesn’t work for people like me who are not religious and take issue with not owning the responsibility.
SJAW,
I think the point they (AA) are trying to make to the alcoholic is that an alcoholic is inherently INcapable of controlling his drinking. This is what makes him an alcoholic. So, if you are an alcoholic and you cannot control your own drinking, then what do you do if you want to stop? If your own behavior is beyond your ability to control, what are your options for changing it? If you can’t control it, who is going to control it for you? Who would even have the ability to control it for you? It’s a desperate problem when you see it in these terms.Your situation becomes hopeless very quickly. If you can’t control it, and no one else can control it, then you are pretty well screwed. And this is the reason so many people with uncontrolled and uncontrollable drinking are reluctant to admit it. Deep down, they know they are screwed. It’s hopeless.
The point of AA is not to make you a religious person. As explained by a very old and long recovered alcoholic in AA: It doesn’t really matter if you are religious or not, or if you go to church or not. The only thing AA encourages you to believe about God is that there is one, and it’s not you. That’s it. If you don’t believe in any sort of God, then humans are the highest intelligence that there is.
Doctors lawyers and judges are among the smartest humans, but they are not smart enough to be bale to control an alcoholic’s drinking. (If they could, alcoholism would have already been eradicated). So if the alcoholic can’t control it, and the smartest humans available to him can’t control it, then there is no hope for the alcoholic. If as an alcoholic, you can only bring yourself to believe that there is some kind of God somewhere, then you have hope again. Because then you have a God you can ask for help. You have back up. Hence the advice that there is a God, and it’s not you.
What I’ve heard that same recovered alcoholic and others say to alcoholics trying to quit drinking regarding the responsibility of it is that, “It may not be your fault that you have this disease, but it IS your problem, and your responsibility to solve it.”. Then they add, “No one who is really an alcoholic can solve it on his own…”. The point they are trying to make here is that no alcoholic can control his drinking alone, and no other people can really control it for him. But if he believes in some kind of God, he still has hope that his God can help him to control it. It’s the control and the solution that’s the point more than the blame or responsibility.
My own experience watching them is that the alcoholics who have the best shot at getting sober in AA are those whose lives are most threatened by it. There is an expression you’ve probably heard that says “There are no atheists in the foxholes once the shooting starts…”. The premise being that when your life is threatened, you have nothing to lose and much to gain by believing in God. Even if you know you are going to die, the possibility of a God = the possibility of continuing on in some form. So believing in God becomes a matter of self preservation, even if that self is going to be preserved in some other form.
So the more threatened an alcoholic is by the effects of his drinking, and the more likely his demise from it, the more attractive a belief in God becomes, and the better his odds of getting sober by that faith. I’ll acknowledge this sounds bizarre (and the mechanisms of insanity should sound bizarre to a sane person) but I have seen this play out enough times that I can’t dismiss it. And it was explained to me by sober people who are completely certain that they could not have achieved sobriety on their own.
Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you
As others have pointed out, I don’t think it’s too helpful to refer to it as a disease. The connotation is that it’s something that happens to you, that you have no control over.
It seems that many things are called a disease, when really, it just means that we are ‘wired’ differently then most, and we can’t participate in certain activities because of it. Or our bodies just can’t handle certain stresses that others can.
Really, it’s just a label, and labels can be helpful, but they can also be deceitful. If you have issues it’s just simply best to understand what that specific issue is, what to avoid, how to manage it, and forget about how it’s classified.
Ok. Then do it.
<Every sponsor I’ve ever met has said that they only have the power to conquer alcohol through God, because alone they just don’t have the ability to do so.
Correct, but the key point is that the alcoholic must take action (12 steps: write things in a book, meet with someone and discuss it, make a list of people harmed, meet with each and make amends, help others, etc etc). God doesn’t take that action, the alcoholic must. Thus, the alcoholic is required to do certain things each day to obtain the “power to conquer alcohol”. It doesn’t just come. Hence it does not “take responsibility away from the individual”. Instead, it requires the individual to take action and as a result, the individual obtains “the power to conquer alcohol”
Its like a job – I don’t get the paycheck unless I do certain things each day – show up on time, get my work done, etc etc. The fact that I rely on the paycheck doesn’t mean that I’m not taking responsibility for myself, as I am still required to do certain things each day to get that paycheck.
Anonymous1<Every sponsor I’ve ever met has said that they only have the power to conquer alcohol through God, because alone they just don’t have the ability to do so.
Correct, but the key point is that the alcoholic must take action (12 steps: write things in a book, meet with someone and discuss it, make a list of people harmed, meet with each and make amends, help others, etc etc). God doesn’t take that action, the alcoholic must. Thus, the alcoholic is required to do certain things each day to obtain the “power to conquer alcohol”. It doesn’t just come. Hence it does not “take responsibility away from the individual”. Instead, it requires the individual to take action and as a result, the individual obtains “the power to conquer alcohol”
Its like a job – I don’t get the paycheck unless I do certain things each day – show up on time, get my work done, etc etc. The fact that I rely on the paycheck doesn’t mean that I’m not taking responsibility for myself, as I am still required to do certain things each day to get that paycheck.
Taking action does not equate with taking responsibility.
Anonymous1Taking action does not equate with taking responsibility.
It depends on the action you’re taking, but generally it means exactly that.
Anonymous1Taking action does not equate with taking responsibility.
It depends on the action you’re taking, but generally it means exactly that.
So, if a person murders someone in cold blood and then pleads not guilty in court, they’ve taken responsibility for their actions?
Riiiiiiiiight.
Anonymous1So, if a person murders someone in cold blood and then pleads not guilty in court, they’ve taken responsibility for their actions?
Riiiiiiiiight
Dafuq? What sort of example is that?
I bet it took you a while to come up with such a ridiculous response to that because there wasn’t much better you could do.
That’s just daft, mate.
The inclusion of god or a higher power is not to provide an escape of any accountability or responsibility from the alcoholic. It is to help the individual as he comes to terms with the fact that left to his own choices he makes the wrong ones and makes a mess of his life. It is more about providing a structure for a person, to believe in something beyond himself and his trusty bottle etc. People desperately hanging on to the bottom rung need that sort of hope and belief. They need to turn over some control while they heal themselves and come to grips with how to function normally without alcohol making all the choices for them.
Quite the contrary, the fact that you made the mess you are in, that you made the choices that brought you where you are and ruined your life, that it is not the fault of others is hammered home consistently.
I know a few atheists who went through AA and were grateful for that, even though they still did not believe in God.
Anonymous1I know a few atheists who went through AA and were grateful for that, even though they still did not believe in God
But AA generally doesn’t work. The failure rate is extremely high.
I’m glad it worked for your friends, but it doesn’t work for most.
I’m not religious, but I have a have a dislike for atheists. They pretend to know what they’re talking about and have no clue – same as a lot of religious souls.
Anonymous1So, if a person murders someone in cold blood and then pleads not guilty in court, they’ve taken responsibility for their actions?
Riiiiiiiiight
Dafuq? What sort of example is that?
I bet it took you a while to come up with such a ridiculous response to that because there wasn’t much better you could do.
That’s just daft, mate.
Ad hominem = invalid argument. There seems to be a lot of those floating around. In case you don’t understand an Ad Hominem, you attack the person instead of their argument as a way of discrediting their argument. You seem intelligent, you should know better.
I know a few atheists who went through AA and were grateful for that, even though they still did not believe in God
But AA generally doesn’t work. The failure rate is extremely high.
I’m glad it worked for your friends, but it doesn’t work for most.
I’m not religious, but I have a have a dislike for atheists. They pretend to know what they’re talking about and have no clue – same as a lot of religious souls.
It is like anything else that is difficult. If you put the work in and follow the system your chances are significantly higher than trying to do it on your own, which they have all tried and failed, which is why they are in AA.
But if you show up because you have to, because you have run out of rope with your job, your wife, your friends and family, and think you will just play along, or you think the system or God will do all the hard work for you – well you will fail.
I work out eat healthy, make my fitness and health my priority, and it works for me. Yet the internet is full of people who will tell me they tried it and it won’t work etc.
Same thing.Personal religious beliefs is not something I use to filter people through. I use other criteria that serve me better in weeding people out.
For instance: I always liked you Joller, because you have the ability for empathy and affection towards your dog. When someone is lacking that ability… huge red flag.
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