Starting to Wonder

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

I am starting to wonder, and I’m sure a few of you are as well, if I’m really all that MGHOW after all.

My understanding of MGTOW is that it’s about men who are aware of the basic nature of women, their tactics and strategies for achieving their desires and objectives and the expectations and assumptions that they and society place upon us… and about rejecting all that and finding a new way to live where we spend our time, energy and resources on ourselves and the things that matter to us.

I believe that women are inherently deceptive about getting what they want from men… danger and excitement at first, then resources later. I believe they use shame, social pressure, the law and the threat of proxy violence to manipulate men into giving them what they want. I believe that they can not survive without men but refuse to recognize or acknowledge this fact and that the more men submit to them and give them what they want, the more they resent and, ultimately, hate men for doing so. I believe that interaction with women is dangerous and can (and often does) lead to personal, financial, social and legal ruin. Finally, I believe that feeding, clothing, supporting, attempting to woo, impress or entice a woman, hoping to explain, cooperate with or change a woman and, above all, trusting, loving and marrying a woman is futile at best and suicidal at worst.

I’ll add to this that I am emotionally, morally, psychologically, legally and financially independent and feel I have a reasonably firm grasp on understanding myself and other people, including the women I interact with.

Although I have recently and probably will continue to learn from mistakes, I felt all of this together made me a MGHOW so I’ve adopted the term as the closest thing (after Discordian) to a label I’d be willing to wear.

Now I’m starting to wonder. I’m starting to feel that the criteria for what qualifies as MGTOW is becoming more polarized and that I may not be on the right side of it.

I’ve stated that a man can not be a MGHOW if he is married, in the military, in jail or an active member of a cult or organized religion based on the idea that a man can not choose his own way if he is bound by love, faith, law or contract to go someone else’s way. Someone may disagree and that’s fine.

Lately I’m feeling that the definition of a MGTOW is shifting toward men who state that they do not need and wish to withdraw from society and relationships with women completely.

Sure I’ve railed against the idea that this is even possible and have traded barbs with other users here in a number of threads over a series of related topics. But I’ve sided with those same people in other threads when our views align.

I’ve also tossed out a few c~~~amamie ideas lately to see what people thought of them which may make me look crazy. To tell the truth, I’m not actually an anti-Zionist conspiracy theorist nor am I a traditional conservative trying to reform women so we can “go back” to some mythical golden age… and I’m definitely not going to get gay married.

But still I wonder. Is there room in MGTOW for a man who accepts the reality of hypergamy, understands why human sexual dimorphism exists and believes that women have a meaningful and important role to play in human society? Is there space in MGTOW for a man who believes he need society and that society needs him, is content to act in his nature and play his role in life… who still enjoys the company of women, is willing to incur the risks and rewards that come with social and economic engagement and cares about self representation and behaving with kindness and charity toward those who are not as capable or responsible?

I have been called out as a tradcon, a PUA, a pussy begging simp and a fool for standing up for these values and so I wonder… has MGTOW gone from being about men going their own way to men who stand alone? Or is it just me.

[Puffin StuffParticipant 24979]

I don’t currently have a girl friend but I believe that going my owe way is about me, not others. I must feel that I am worth putting first second and third.

This is a new way of looking at things for me, I have lived my life according to what society expects of me and that is a slave to a series of women. To this day, my mother and rest of the family puts stranger women above me when telling me I need to have a woman in my life.

On MGTOW I have learned that I have value which intrinsic and doesn’t depend on what others think of me.

This is a radical departure from my life script I was taught through out my life. I married young because marriage was a given. I stayed with my first wife even though she had mental problems that cause out home life to be a disaster. Still I stayed because I was raised that when you take a wife it’s through thick and thin.

That was until she kicked me out, best thing that ever happened to me.

With my second wife was a modern women and I knew any one fight could lead our relationship to be over. I got married because I wanted a child. So I covered my bases. The problem was the inbred desire to have children

So, no, I think it is unwise to divorce yourself from all contact with females…they are good for some things.

It’s just a matter of keeping things in perspective. Always put your needs first and run at the first, not the second red flag that indicates she is using you for anything other than your company.

Because that is all men and women should give each other, their company and that should be enough for a good woman. The rest can go pound sand.

#icethemout; Remember Thomas Ball. He died for your children.

[TaxGuyParticipant]

Doc, if I may be so bold, my opinion is that you are overthinking a label. Are you MGTOW? Hell yes. MGTOW isn’t a label that someone else gets to define for you, it’s how YOU define it for YOURSELF. I don’t get hung up on that part of it.

Personally, I appreciate the deeper questions that get asked on this forum. That’s what keeps me coming back. I don’t respond to most of what I read on these forums because I don’t feel like I have anything to add to the conversation. But there are times when a topic comes up where I think I have something to add, so I do. You bring up interesting topics and have a unique and valuable input on these forums. THAT ALONE makes you MGTOW.

It’s an interesting question that you brought up the other day. What is the end game? If society does ever “get it right”, what does that look like? What does it take to get cost / benefit analysis to say “buy” instead of “sell”?

I don’t even care if a married guy wants to think he is MGTOW. But again, I don’t care about the label. I care about the man, and if he is learning something here that makes his life better, then more power to him.

Order the good wine

[Anonymous 42]

Take it from me, I’m a man that has been legally slandered, shunned, and rejected by this society “IN THE NAME OF THE LAW” so I tend to believe things are going to get much worse As I have been subjected to tyranny and corruption by every level of government, not to mention the heartless whims of modern women. I’m an isolationist by force and not choice!
The disastrous interactions with modern women and corrupted government has me in a position that only “going my own way” makes any sense at all.
I guess I have a battle hardened heart impervious to deceptions of love, community, and servitude to his fellow citizen.
I live in a Massachusetts condemned family campground under CEASE AND DESIST. I have no other option.
I guess that’s why I’m here warning others about the larger picture of condemnation, the one where men are subjected to a life of toil, misery, and shame for not being content in all his toil and misery.
I would consider myself a spearhead for the new revolution where not one single shot has to be fired.
A revolution where men simply abandon this societies demands to be miserable and abused, and trading that for sovereignty and peace of mind.
I believe in absolutes, when cutting of the snakes head, don’t pull back, don’t hesitate, just do it and walk away!
No, we can’t go back to a golden age, we can only move forward! History is said and done, it’s only a matter of personal preference as to how much you’re willing to trust a poisonous snake….
I honestly believe in my heart of hearts this society is doomed by it path to destruction…. A path I refuse to follow, and the only path societie’s willing to travel, My life has become one of the truest definitions of “en passant”.

[OgreParticipant 5863]

Doc, I know I’m not MGTOW… according to several people who weighed in heavily on my introduction. I got the red pill after I had been married for almost two decades.

Having said that, I commented on your previous post regarding gay marriage as a shelter from any forthcoming Bachelor Tax. I didn’t agree that it’s going to be a problem, but I also saw the other responses.

You’ve been a valuable voice here, as I hope I have because everybody is at a different point on their path. Can a MGTOW be a contributing member of society. I’d go with yes as long as you are willingly contributing and there is a return. If you pay X in taxes to all sources and you get the commensurate return of roads, police, fire, military for actual protection of the Nation; then I’d say that you can be happy as a member of that society and still be MGTOW.

I fully believe that I will drop out of society at some point, but not from an angry refusal to contribute. My version of dropping out is just an extended walkabout.

You’re definitely in the Red Pill spectrum… MGTOW or not is your determination, not anybody else’s. Popp says he isn’t MGTOW, but he and his videos are respected by most here. 600dfella gave a great response to an attack on MGTOW, despite not being a MGTOW himself.

The first hypocrite that tells you have to go your way their way just doesn’t even get it.

I failed to realize in my youth that I was the prize. I was going to work. I was going to earn. Little did I realize that due to feminism, that no longer meant I had to share. Road soon, Desert after.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Doc, I wholeheartedly agree with you on most of your points here. We may have had our disagreements about other subjects in the past, but you are spot on here. I don’t see a necessity in completely barring women from our lives. It’s just that manipulation is so out of hand, that all people have to learn and understand a new level of psychological warfare. We all must learn how *not* to be manipulated, and it’s not easy, because usually we learn by getting burned. So, if we do choose to have children, it needs to be completely on our terms, and that child needs to have the “How not to be manipulated” course taught to them in full. It’s necessary for self defense.. and it’s actually not new. People have been manipulated for millennia, it’s just that up until now, the sharing of information to bring it into awareness was extremely difficult. Now we can type a message from anywhere in the world and it can be accessed within fractions of a second. That’s pretty amazing. I don’t think relationships need to be destroyed; they just need to be reset to a level that they should be: strictly personal, without transaction. We can enjoy each other’s company, we can enjoy the same hobbies, we can actually talk to people. Destroying the family, relationships, and switching those feelings and relationships with the state is communism. That’s also likely the exact function of feminism. The abolishment of the family. It sucks for us to have to defend ourselves in this manner, but it is absolutely necessary. Like you mentioned, and it is true, women do not respect men that they are able to easily manipulate. In fact, we all know that they resent men who buy them, even though they will exploit that person all day long and brag about it.

[HitmanParticipant]

doc,i think we all wonder if the mgtow “label” is something we can measure up to /wear honestly.
it’s truly a matter of personal choice /definition.
i have a lot in common with puff n stuff,stayed with women who i should have walked out on ,because i was taught to love,honor and protect the woman i was with..until they back-stabbed me..
like mgtower, i was also subject to the court system,although i did nothing “criminal”.
i look at being here as a “think-tank” for men,no bad ideas ..just ideas .
hey, sometimes i think we give feminism way too much thought and give it too much credit for the chaos that infected our society ..but i could be wrong ..so i read and learn ,gleaning what i can .
i think it’s fine to have women in your life,i take pride in being a once bitten snake-handler..
we are all here with common ground and different reasons,experiences..
the red pills are truths about life,women ourselves..it takes me time to digest ..some i always knew but ignored,i paid the price, other red pills have me choking..i don’t think a bunch of feminists plotted to have europe over-run with “refugees”..but really,what the hell could i know other than what’s out there for me to read and watch ,opinions of others etc..
so brother-man ,i wonder too,but i’m here because i want to be ,the guys in their 20’s and 30’s have very different views on some things ..i take it with many grains of salt.
stay with us and keep stirring the pot with your own brand of mghow..i for one need the diversity of views to help calibrate my own

[Cap285Participant 6007]

Don’t sweat it. Seems to be a lot of in-fighting recently. Not to mention that ne0-Nazi guys video bashing MGTOW.

Don’t worry, you’re cool.

HOLD YOUR COURSE.

Fuck this planet.

[RoyDalParticipant]

Stargazer wrote:

Now I’m starting to wonder. I’m starting to feel that the criteria for what qualifies as MGTOW is becoming more polarized and that I may not be on the right side of it.

Go your own way, no matter what it is. Criteria are for conformists.

Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?

[Prefer Peace to PieceParticipant 10809]

Stargazer wrote:

Now I’m starting to wonder. I’m starting to feel that the criteria for what qualifies as MGTOW is becoming more polarized and that I may not be on the right side of it.

Hi Doc-
You are a thoughtful, creative person.
I believe you are without a doubt MGTOW.
I personally view MGTOW as something of a journey. A lot of us come here looking for answers. As we learn more and grow, how we respond to women and society changes. Some guys have been around the block a few times and some guys are fairly new to this. We will all grow and change at different rates. But in the end, this new path will improve our lives and reduce collateral damage from the bitches we encounter along the way.
Thanks Doc.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

My two cents as the young guy here:

We really can’t say MGTOW is completely individualistic as many of the men here rely on each other for information, guidance, and support in some shape or form.

At the same time we cannot say we are a culture or group either, because most of our beliefs are reactionary to the cultures we are in. That and a lot of us agree to disagree half the time.

When it comes to the “MGTOW Movement”, in my opinion, it is less about a title and more about men conversing with each other over the one fundamental question that seems to drive everyone mad: “What the f~~~ is going on?”.

And when it comes to MGTOW that’s how I take it. It is less about a title and more about identifying social/cultural/legal/etc problems and trying to gain some understanding with how to deal with them.

MGTOW is not a group or label, it is an idea. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. And ideas are very difficult to destroy.

[AFTParticipant 2726]

The only criteria is maintaining sovereignty over yourself, I define it as acting in YOUR own best interest.
I still “date” women, I want the blue pill fantasy, BUT I can NEVER unlearn the cold hard truth reality has taught.
I need to do what is in my own best interest, not because MGTOW or anyone else tells me to, but because that is what is right for me.
If that sets an example for others to follow, and helps repair society great, however if that helps destroy society so be it.

When the war cemeteries are half full of the corpses of dead conscripted women, only then will women have earned the right to speak of equality. Sidecar “A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do.” - Bob Dylan

[JackinovParticipant 5229]

Here’s the thing. When I say I don’t need women, it is because I have learned that they are essentially useless. I have been taught ever since childbirth that my whole existence is to be wrapped up and a woman’s whim, and so far, since I’ve broken out of that lie, I have seen nothing that would prove they do anything useful. And, to boot, because I can do everything myself, even if they are useful, why would I care? Their general toxicity and bulls~~~ is not needed. I will interact with them when I need to, but other than that, a relationship is out of the picture. I’m perfectly fine interacting in society however.

are you a chia pet in man drag

[Big BossParticipant 4496]

Stargazer wrote:

I am starting to wonder, and I’m sure a few of you are as well, if I’m really all that MGHOW after all.

You need a dose of simplification. Just avoid getting married. Bam. You’ve gone and are MGTOW. Want to get married? Well you done f~~~ed up and probably should avoid calling yourself MGTOW unless the chick you married is so wealthy that you are going to not get raped in court.

[Tiga KParticipant 1693]

I have similar thoughts even though I’m more of a ghost type of guy. To me Mgtow is the rejection of marriage and recognizing that ones value is not determined by women. If I find out some day that most guys that use the term have added to this or have changed it, then I’ll just use a new term and be on my merry way. Language evolves, so I wouldn’t feel obliged to continue using a word that no longer describes me.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

I really just consider MGTOW to be any guy that understands traditional gender roles are dead, marriage is dieing a slow death, and our laws are generally biased towards women. You can be a frugal hermit no fap mgtow, or a mgtow that lives a high earning/high spending playboy lifestyle and gets more ass than a toilet seat as far as I’m concerned…you just have to know the rules and play the game in such a manner that you get what you want out of life without handing your b~~~~ over socially, financially, and legally to a woman.

In a nutshell society still expects men to live up to the traditional expectations of what makes a good man, while the expectations for a good woman are practically non-existent. Why should I make the same sacrifices in life I watched my grandfather make for his wife, when today’s women will make nowhere near the sacrifices my grandmother made for her husband for me? Modern relationships have just become way too lopsided…proceed with caution.

[Biggvs_DickvsParticipant 3726]

Anonymous wrote:

I live in a Massachusetts condemned family campground under CEASE AND DESIST. I have no other option.

What does that even mean? What is a condemned family campground?

"Data, I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know." --Captain Picard,

[narwhalParticipant]

Excellent topic. I personally don’t want to wear the label. Perhaps some day it will fit, but I have not processed all the principles and thoughts that makeup the MGTOW ideal, I don’t want to blindly accept what I don’t fully understand or agree with. nor do I want to intentionally be hypocritical (although I’m sure I often am). The label is not worth it to me.

What I like about Doc and many others, even though you are not me and I do not agree with all that you say, is that everything you say is well thought out and communicated logically. Many here will go against the grain to state the truth or just what they believe despite that fact that it may not be popular in society or here. And that’s why I hang around here. Regardless of where each of goes from here, regardless of what labels we use, and what mistakes we may make, we’ll be better off for trying to embrace the truth and seeking out the logical best direction for each of us, avoiding the lies thrown at us along the way.

Ok. Then do it.

[Jan SobieskiParticipant 28791]

Isn’t standing alone going your own way.

Just rub one out. You’ll feel better.

Love is just alimony waiting to happen. Visit mgtow.com.

[BurgundyParticipant 1525]

We are all men of our own ways, following our own path, our own ideas of serving ourselves first and foremost. As long you aren’t bound by marriage or something, and have sovereignty over yourself, I would define that MGTOW.

Personally, I’m not interested in some traditional ideas coming back either though, and for better or worse, I do see feminism as something that really liberated men from their s~~~ty roles of having to sacrifice themselves and be constant providers.

Relationships, is a grey area for me personally, every time I’m with some gal, I would look at the time, and wondering what I could be doing at the very same time.

But as we all are men of our own views and ideas, of self sovereignty, when a view or an idea doesn’t align with another fellow MGTOW, there is likely to be a discussion or argument between the views, in some of them I think it’s more like a fanboy thing, like with sports teams, or games/consoles/hardware/company, which one is best and so forth, debates are created for a reason, to expand our views, from our own, and sure we might topple heads, in the end we are men, and can drink a beer on it, even if we were dumb to fight on our opinions, it just shows that we actually care about some things.

I personally wouldn’t be surprised even philosophers would have heated debates/arguments/discussions about certain theories. And so shall we, sometimes. We are humans after all.

[Author]

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