Home › Forums › MGTOW Central › Is circumcision ethical? Tired of this double standard?
Tagged: circumcision
This topic contains 75 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by 
NioZen 4 years, 3 months ago.
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Key Master,
The only opinion I possess which is strong on this matter, is comparing being circumsised to PEDOPHILIA. Barring that, I am indifferent.
I will not bite my tongue when such an egregious and ridiculous analogy is made, comparing circumsision to CHILD RAPE AND PEDOPHILIA (?) Thats…f~~~ing…sick.
Apart from that, if you guys want to discuss the intricacies of how youre emotions and livelihood was ruined by a doctor circumsising a head on your c~~~ when you were 1 years old, then its all good.
The OP cant even articulate his complaint in a clear and consice sentence. No. I see a WALL of text alluding to Africa and AIDS. Unreal.
Resident cynic.
So let me get this straight:
Circumsision is tantamount to pedaphilia (an adult RAPING a child)?
Listen, AncientWisdom, you’re arguing from emotion. You’re arguing like a feminist. You’ve yet to tell me the principle difference between the two examples I gave. I refuted the one difference you offered. There are men who are psychoogically damaged and victimized from circumcision. Here is an example: http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/
Abstract
Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men> have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault.In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.
And I can provide more evidence of the similar psychological impact if you’d like. Any disparity between the rates of those who communicate feeling like victims in circumcision and sexual assault is explained by the fact that society tells men that being assaulted as a very small child is something a man can feel like a victim over, whereas alot of people (the mainstream) use the man up nonsense and shaming language when men say they feel molested by genital mutilation.
Now I’ll ask again, what are the differences in principle between a sex offender performing a sex act on a baby’s penis if the parents let him vs an ignorant, religious demagogue taking a knife to the penis in a primitive desert ritual. Or a doctor going against his medical ethics and taking a knife to healthy tissue for no valid medical reason. (Sexual health in later life even if it were true, which it isn’t, is reason to perform it on a consenting adult, not a sexually inactive baby).
Why are the two incomparable? Why is it alright for men to be victims in one and not the other?
This is a question of moral philosophy deserving of a cogent answer. And I guarantee the answer is not “I’M SICK”, or any other overemotional example of non-thinking.Please, ALL, AND ANY of you who agree with that statement say “I”.
Nor does the amount of people who agree with a premise, have anything to do with the validity of that premise. Everyone on this forum could disagree with me and agree with you and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not a replacement for actual arguments.
If THAT is the consesus of the forum, Id rather not be a member.
A fallacious appeal to consequences.
KeyMaster, THAT is the sentiment I had a problem with. One doesnt compare circumsission with pedaphelia. That is a travesty in my mind, a perversion, and is DISGUSTING
.
This is another appeal to outrage. You’re just appealing to Your feelings. Your feelings are irrelevant. Who else uses the argument “SHUT UP, I’M OFFENDED!!”… any other movement we know of? Begins with a big F.
Unbelievableyetnot (what a convoluted name, much like your posts)
Dude, you EDITED your post about SIX…TIMES…
*IM* acting like a feminist lol?
Two questions:
1. Why are you comparing being circumsiced to PEDAPHELIA?
2. How are you so “hurt” by your circumsicion?
Your illogical nonsense would be humourous if it didn’t hurt mens cause. The fact that I even have to ask you these questions is hillarious. “Oh…..my….god!…when I was one month old, they gave my dick a HEAD!”…..
LOL. its hysterical. Thabk you for the DRAMA. Thank you for the estrogen, the forum doesnt have any without you.
Any more complaints or disanalogies? Please…please….please tell me how having your circumsicion is equivalent to CHILD RAPE.
Youre a mental midget.
Resident cynic.
Further proof of the comparable psychological impact: The mother’s reaction. http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/goldman_1999.pdf
Quoted from “The Parent’s Reponses”.
. Margaret Viola submitted the following comments
in her letter to a magazine:
‘My tiny son and I sobbed our hearts out. After everything
I’d worked for, carrying and nurturing Joseph in the womb,
having him at home against no small odds, keeping him by
my side constantly since birth, nursing him whenever he
needed closeness and nourishment— the circumcision was a
horrible violation of all I felt we shared. I cried for days
afterward’
[20].
Melissa Morrison was having a difficult time 7 months. Furthermore,
after she had watched the circumcision of her son:
‘I’m finding myself obsessing more and more about it. It’s
absolutely horrible. I didn’t know how horrific it was going
to be. It was the most gruesome thing I have ever seen in
my life. I told the doctor as soon as he was done, if I had a
gun I would have killed him. I swear I would be in jail today if I did have a gun.
[21].
Other mothers have reported to the author’s insti-tution that watching their son’s circumcision was ‘the
worst day of my life’. Some mothers clearly remember
their son’s circumcision after many years; Pollack
reported 15 years after the event, ‘The screams of my
baby remain embedded in my bones and haunt my
mind.’ [sign of PTSD] She added, his cry sounded like he was being
butchered. I lost my milk’ [22] [last sentence possibly referencing loss of lactation].Quoted from Circumcision as Trauma.
Two brain-imaging studies of adults with his-
tories of child sexual abuse reported a reduced size of the hippocampus, a part of the brain associated with
memory, and in a test of verbal short-term memory,^ An example of doctors themselves at Circumcision Resource Center, drawing the comparison with child sexual abuse.
So what have you got against that, AncientWisdom? More hysterics about your feelings?
I seriously cant stop laughing.
YOURE complaining about having a head on your c~~~, carved out at BIRTH…and IM being “emotional”?…
LMFAO…
Yes, yes. Please DO bid me more of your wisdom (hands clasped).
Such logic. Such wisdom. Please, please give us more! Do you FEEL “raped” because the doctor cut off your umbilical cord too? “OMG I have a NAVEL! How dare THEY!”
Your (lack) of the use of logic is hysterical.
Resident cynic.
Oh…my…f~~~ing…god.
You replied, prior to me, with that STUPID long ass s~~~.
Mother “crying” about circumsision. Dude- youre a f~~~ing joke. *IM* “emotional” lol? Listen to you.
Lmao. Im done with your gay f~~~ing sensitive s~~~.
“Omg….Dr. Gave me a NAVEL! Mommy used to feed me through it. Can you believe that?”
I am SOOOOOOOO hurt because I have a head on my c~~~!!!
Whose the EMOTIONAL bitch in this situation?
Resident cynic.
seriously cant stop laughing.
YOURE complaining about having a head on your c~~~, carved out at BIRTH…and IM being “emotional”?…
I’m not circumcised and no one in my family has been. I’m not arguing this from an emotional position, or as someone who’s been abused. So you should drop that particular line of Ad Hominem.
Now that I’ve shown you proof that the comparisons neither started with me, and have been made by professionals, you’ve shifted from arguing from personal offence, to petty mockery of anything you think you can make fun of. Ranging from the amount of edits your opponent’s made, to their username, to outright namecalling. As well as repetition of the statement that the comparison between circumcision and child sex abuse is being made. As if the statement is self refuting and all that’s required from you is simple repetition of the claim. That is not debate. Again I invite you to provide a cogent refutation if you have one.
OhHhhhHhh BoOooOoy!
Lmao.
Im sorry bro, I honestly cant stop laughing. The way you are discussing this leads me to believe your in JUNIOR college.
Im sorry, WHY do you give a f~~~ about circumsision again?
Dont care to read your juvenile, smoke filled coffee house CRAP about such a NON issue. A word going forward: dont EVER use ADULT words when you are discussing your juvenile NONSENSE again. Words such as “pedophilia”. Keep your childish, whimsical, fleeting emotions in your little uncircumcised penis, and carry it around in your JUNIOR college, with the logic book you failed to understand.
Thanks kid.
Resident cynic.
Oh goodness, I TOO can find ANY substantiating evidence I want on GOOGLE!
Boy, oh, boy -youre a BIG BOY!
So cute.
(Yawns).
Basic premise: circumsicion is tantamount to pedaphelia.
Ummm…ok.
Youre nuts and an emotional frenzy.
Conversation over.
Have fun at your JUNIOR college. Its CLEAR your not of a mature mind.
Resident cynic.
Dont care to read your juvenile, smoke filled coffee house CRAP about such a NON issue.
A non issue based on what? Your feelings that it’s gay or sissy or juvenile to complain? You’re trying to marginalize the feelings of other people, so why should anyone take your feelings into consideration? With that in mind, and the fact that mockery of a position is not a refutation of said position, the invitation to debate me seriously remains open.
And they say it’s more hygienic? Well, I still have my hood. Had it for 38 years now. It’s clean as a whistle, and never an infection. Whether you’re circumcised or not, proper personal hygiene procedures are the key to being hygienic.
Yep, I mean, unless there is an alarming reason for any operation etc.
I prefer actually washing my dick instead of cutting the skin off. ROFL.
I like having a head on my c~~~.
No s~~~. Shockingly, I do aswell. But hey, it’s better if you cut it off aswell, because…Reasons ! It will look even better…right. Or have a piercing ring in it.
Me, Im fine with my body the way it is, torture/scaring/tattoos is not my style. If some adult want’s to do it to his body, Im fine with it.
When a child grows up he will choose if he wants to modify his body.
-----------
“Omg….Dr. Gave me a NAVEL! Mommy used to feed me through it. Can you believe that?”
False equivalence. The umbilical cord (which has no nerves) if not severed, will dry out and fall off on it’s own. A practice referred to as “Lotus Birth”.
Dont care to read your juvenile, smoke filled coffee house CRAP about such a NON issue.
A non issue based on what? Your feelings that it’s gay or sissy or juvenile to complain? You’re trying to marginalize the feelings of other people, so why should anyone take your feelings into consideration? With that in mind, and the fact that mockery of a position is not a refutation of said position, the invitation to debate me seriously remains open.
So, my sophmoric friend, tell me SUCCINCTLY why and how circumsicion is tantamount to CHILD RAPE?
Resident cynic.
So, my sophmoric friend, tell me SUCCINCTLY why and how circumsicion is tantamount to CHILD RAPE?
Man go easy. Did you miss my LINK?
It’s not just “rape” it can actually KILL them and result in brain damage.
I don’t know how you can “LMAO” about it about anyone who regards it severely. Pretend it’s your son for a moment. “Oh sorry, he died getting snipped” or “he has Herpes now after the priest..”…… I can’t even finish this sentence. And not because it’s “pansy ass”. Because it’s f~~~ing sick.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.So, my sophmoric friend, tell me SUCCINCTLY why and how circumsicion is tantamount to CHILD RAPE?
Both are unnecessary acts of genital violation/trauma on a infant with comparable psychological effects that violate the ethics of autonomy and consent.
And as Keymaster said above, circumcision can be life threatening. It is after all, surgery.
How many men in the modern western world do you think are circumsised? How often do you hear of ANY of them having adverse effects from this?
Give me a f~~~ing break.
“Its like CHILD RAPE”.
YOURE DELUSIONAL. SICK. AND ARE NO HELP TO OUR CAUSE.
Resident cynic.
I cant BELIEVE this topic has any clout.
This is bitchery.
Where are all of these men with “botched” circumsicions?
Omg….I have PTSD because the doctor gave me a head on my penis!
“SAVING RYANS PRIVATE: HOW CIRCUMSICION KILLS GOOD MEN”.
This is infantile, emotional, bitchery. Thanks for infusing us with this OP. We should MARCH against circumsicion! Thats right “men”. March against circumsicion!
Thanks op. We should make t shirts “dont TOUCH my dick!”
Whose with OP? Lets march around and SCREAM:
DONT.
TOUCH.
MY.
DICK.
Thats right! All aboard the anti circumsicion train!
Our penises are SENSITIVE!!!…CHOOO.CHOO!
Resident cynic.
How many men in the modern western world do you think are circumsised? How often do you hear of ANY of them having adverse effects from this?
So your argument has come down to not enough male voices reaching your ears while insulting and mocking the ones that are?
Anonymous0I guess I’ll pop in here one more time and try to make a final statement of my own position on the subject.
I’m all for campaigning against circumcision. But I question the tactics and language you uncircumcised guys are using.
Look at this thread: You have a bunch of uncircumcised guys showing up and saying, “Look at how terrible circumcision is. It leaves men with mutilated genitals. It leaves men with PTSD. It’s like child rape.”And then you have circumcised guys showing up and saying, “WTF? My genitals are fine. I don’t have PTSD. And I object to the idea that I was somehow raped.”
And then the uncircumised guys try to steamroll over the circumcised guys by bringing up some old bogus study from Australia claiming all circumcised people have PTSD whether they admit it or not. Or a news story about a couple babies killed or injured as a results of ultra-orthodox Jewish circumcision rites.
But I think you uncircumcised guys are missing the point. You’re trying very hard to turn us circumcised guys into victims of a procedure that you don’t like. But here is the problem: Us circumcised guys don’t feel like victims. And we don’t like how you’re describing us. We’re not f~~~ing mentally ill, we’re not “mutilated,” and we weren’t assraped by the doctors who circumcised us.
If you want to campaign against circumcision, that’s fine. But us circumcised guys represent 75% of men, at least in the US. In the process of your campaign, please don’t turn us into basket cases. Because we’re not basket cases. We’re fine. And we’re getting tired of you uncircumcised guys speaking for us and trying to make us out as freak shows.
If us circumcised guys keep objecting to the language you uncircumcised guys are using, then that should be a clue to you uncircumsized guys that you’re being over-the-top and ridiculous. If you uncircumcised guys end up p~~~ing off the men that you’re supposedly speaking for, it means that you don’t know what the f~~~ you’re talking about. So instead of steamrolling the circumcised guys with old BS studies and newspaper articles, try listening to what we say and modify your arguments so that we circumcised guys can get behind the argument too and agree with you.
Summary: Don’t try to shut us circumcised guys out of the argument and tell us we’re victims and don’t know what we’re talking about. We know very well what we’re talking about, since we’ve been through the procedure and lived with the consequences. It’s a minor cosmetic surgery, not an assraping. Please don’t sensationalize it with bogus claims about mutilation, PTSD, and pedophilia on the part of the doctors.
Okay, I’m done. I’ll drop out of the thread. Not trying to make enemies here, just summing up what I said in my earlier posts.
I guess I’ll pop in here one more time and try to make a final statement of my own position on the subject.
I’m all for campaigning against circumcision. But I question the tactics and language you uncircumcised guys are using.
Look at this thread: You have a bunch of uncircumcised guys showing up and saying, “Look at how terrible circumcision is. It leaves men with mutilated genitals. It leaves men with PTSD. It’s like child rape.”And then you have circumcised guys showing up and saying, “WTF? My genitals are fine. I don’t have PTSD. And I object to the idea that I was somehow raped.”
My protests are based on ethics, not only feelings, your feelings are explained by social normalization of genital mutilation. Being molested is an objective standard. If your parents forced a medically unnecessary nose job on you, as a baby, or cosmetic surgery to make you a “prettier baby” in their eyes, but you don’t feel like it was wrong, that would not make it right. Same goes for child sex abuse, same goes for genital mutilation.
And then the uncircumised guys try to steamroll over the circumcised guys by bringing up some old bogus study from Australia claiming all circumcised people have PTSD whether they admit it or not.
I don’t know what study you’re talking about, but the one I linked refers to the WORDS of circumcised men:
AbstractInfant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men> have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault.In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.
But I think you uncircumcised guys are missing the point. You’re trying very hard to turn us circumcised guys into victims of a procedure that you don’t like. But here is the problem: Us circumcised guys don’t feel like victims.
Well he does:
http://circregretstories.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/19-year-old-circumcision-runes-my-life.html
I eventually started looking into the facts and realized just how much my parents f***ed up my life against my will. I feel like it’s worse than rape because not only are you being violated sexually but you actually have a major part of your d*ck physically taken from you as an innocent child against your will and somehow society permits itDoes his feelings in and of itself make it analogous to rape? No, but it gives indication of the similar psychological impact. Not everyone – especially when males are concerned- who gets molested feels victimized or that they even were molested. The fact that he never consented to a unnecessary, permanent surgical alteration of his body that could have killed him, with the potential for severe psychological harm. That makes it analogous:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253617/
Severe complications are quite rare, but death has been reported as a result in some cases.
If people are dying, babies even who haven’t even lived at all are losing their one life, if some people are feeling suicidal and
if some men are reporting being traumatized to the level of feeling like they were raped, all for an unnecessary “procedure” then what possible argument can you put forth for retaining it being done to babies and children? And not consenting adults? Or better yet being banned outright? Like Female Circumcision Type I, removal of the clitoral hood.You can’t speak for a collective like “circumcised men”. And if it wasn’t done, you would be no worse off. People who suffer physically and mentally, are worse off because it is done.
So Ancient Wisdom, who uses “Real Men” logic to call complaining about this “gay” or “delusional” or “sissy”, as well as people like yourself, need to step aside, because your defence mechanisms to not feel like victims and to retain your sense of “manliness”, has no value or importance in the face of lives being ruined and lost by this practice. .
With that in mind, no one should give a s~~~ about your objections to use of language.
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