Is circumcision ethical? Tired of this double standard?

[UnbelievableyetnotParticipant 512]

I am serious. It’s genital molestation and mutilation. At least what the pedophile does isn’t permanent.

Please tell me the principal difference between this and two parents who allow a local sex offender to have his way with their baby’s penis because it’s their religion. The baby has no say in either trauma.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

To each his own opinion. But in MY opinion, MEN crying about Circumsision being tantamount to mutilation, is crying wolf, and lowers the bar for us as a gender.

My opinion. But I think this “cry” is f~~~ing pathetic.

Resident cynic.

[UnbelievableyetnotParticipant 512]

Please tell me the principal difference between this and two parents who allow a local sex offender to have his way with their baby’s penis because it’s their religion. The baby has no say in either trauma.

Would you consider men complaining about the sex offender example, were it to happen, to be “Pathetic crying?”

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

Unbelievableyetnot wrote:

I am serious. It’s genital molestation and mutilation. At least what the pedophile does isn’t permanent.

Are. You. F~~~ing. Delusional? You think if an ADULT rapes a child, then the lasting psychological effects are NOT permanent? Are you f~~~ing NUTS? Youre comparing being circumsicred with the RAPE of a CHILD? You sound like a victimimized BITCH.

YOUR SICK.

YOUR F~~~ING SICK AND PLAYING THE VICTIM BITCH ROLE.

COMPARING CHILDREN TO THIS S~~~. YOUR DISGUSTING.

Resident cynic.

[UnbelievableyetnotParticipant 512]

Are. You. F~~~ing. Delusional? You think if an ADULT rapes a child, then the lasting psychological effects are NOT permanent?

In many cases mutilated men feel just as victimized. They have support groups and psychological counselling. I can easily find you examples if you’d like.

“Are you f~~~ing NUTS? Youre comparing being circumsicred with the RAPE of a CHILD? You sound like a victimimized BITCH.

YOUR SICK.

YOUR F~~~ING SICK AND PLAYING THE VICTIM BITCH ROLE.

COMPARING CHILDREN TO THIS S~~~. YOUR DISGUSTING. “

This is an appeal to incredulity and outrage, and a logical fallacy. It is not an argument. So my question still stands, and this time, I’d like a legitimate response.

[Cipher HighwindParticipant 1144]

I will concede that circumcision is ethical if a grown man will agree for me to chop off a piece of his penis without anaesthetic, local or general.

[InvisibleManParticipant 134]

Christ the femininist social conditioning in Ancientwisdom is so ingrained it’s incredible and he would start a flame war because of it. I don’t want to create divisions or a flame war. Jeez I thought other men would naturally want to stand up for their manhood, I was wrong. I will leave, I have better things to do with my time than talk to irrational men.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

LOL @ “genital MUTILATION”…This is sensitivity in overdrive. This thread seems like a male reply to feminisim. Seriously guys? I cant believe this thread had 20 replies. A topic such as this makes me ashamed to be a member here. “Male MUTILATION waaah…wahhh…wahhh” Are you f~~~ing serious? This is douche s~~~. GAWD. Im a thinker, intellectual, and love philosophy. But THIS topic is NAVEL gazing to the Nth degree. This is pathetic. Seriously guys? “I was MUTILATED at birth by my Circumsision”. Why dont you cry rape next? This is f~~~~~ry.

I didn’t even give this matter any PERSONAL serious thought until I was about 38. Yeah seriously, I saw other wieners in porn and in locker rooms and knew some were cut and some where not, but I didn’t realize the degree to which this is “an issue” until just recently. 70% of men are NOT circumcised and my mother was a registered nurse. She thought snipping was cruel, unnecessary and stupid but it wasn’t until I asked her if she put any thought into it and was very surprised to learn: HELL YES SHE DID.

Is it “mutilation”? NO. Is it really not? Well, yeah it is, kinda. You don’t need the pinky toes either, but if someone cut them off at birth, congratulations, you were mutilated. You would be “mutilated” if someone implanted a chip in your head at birth, tampered with your brain and crossed your wiring – and you would be the first call it that. That’s not “navel gazing”. A navel is SUPPOSED to f~~~ing be there. So is foreskin. I don’t know how discussing this would make anyone “ashamed to be a member” or warrants being called “douche s~~~ f~~~~~ry”.

Have a careful think about it first. I didn’t, but when I DID…. I SAW and understood “the issue” for exactly what it was, and understand why it’s an issue with men at all. No woman ever – EVER – gave a f~~~ if I was circumcised or not. It never even came up once. NOT ONCE in my life with any woman I was sexually involved with. But women are surprisingly oblivious to this. From what I have gathered, they think UN-circumcized penises are “weird”. But MOST of them aren’t cut.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[UnbelievableyetnotParticipant 512]

Don’t let AncientWisdom get to you, InvisibleMan. his response is based on primarily traditionalist social conditioning, that men should be strong and stoic and not complain. That men should instead be tough lest they be “pathetic whiners”. It’s a way of trying to enforce the socially expected male role of disposable utility and beast of burden as opposed to being human beings with complex vulnerabilities and voices that deserve to be heard.

[InvisibleManParticipant 134]

When Ancientwisdom has a grandson who ends up with a botched circumcision who has to pee out of a tube for the rest of his life, maybe then he will understand the issue for what it really is. But by then it will be too late for his grandson. Anyway I only wanted to help. Nobody is getting to me, I say if anyone wants to circumcise their child that is their choice, and if they are happy with having a circumcised penis that is also their choice. Just don’t come crying to me when you experience a botched circumcision and then realize the only reason you have a mangled unusable penis is because the doctor wanted to get $$$ and the hospital wanted to sell the foreskin for more $$$. And then ask yourself why you never got any of the money from the sale of the artificially grown skin manufactured from your foreskin by the company the hospital sold the skin to.

If you want to see the result of a botched circumcision look no further than here https://www.facebook.com/ChasesGuardians

When feminists like Oprah can use creams on their face made of foreskin and you don’t get any of the $$$ from the sale, despite it being your foreskin they cultured to make the cream, then you know something is seriously wrong.  Men not caring about their foreskins is just weird. Obviously you would have to have one in the first place to care, I guess that is why so few of us men actually care.

I respect any and every opinion, but I will never understand any man who says so casually that they don’t care about such a defining part of their body. Anyway I am intact, selfishly what do I care if uncircumcised men want to defend the practice, do what you want. Nothing I said will change anything anyway, society will keep performing this practice and men will keep supporting it.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

So let me get this straight:

Circumsision is tantamount to pedaphilia (an adult RAPING a child)?

Please, ALL, AND ANY of you who agree with that statement say “I”.

If THAT is the consesus of the forum, Id rather not be a member.

KeyMaster, THAT is the sentiment I had a problem with. One doesnt compare circumsission with pedaphelia. That is a travesty in my mind, a perversion, and is DISGUSTING.

Snip my foreskin. Big f~~~ing deal. But for the love of God and all things manly, dont CRY about your forrskin being clipped and compare it to a CHILD being RAPED.

Good. F~~~ing. God.

Resident cynic.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Wouldn’t it depend on who’s definition of “rape” or “pedophelia” you’re going by?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html

Forget about personal opinions of those in the forum. Anyone would agree that s~~~ is f~~~ing sick.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Anonymous 0]

InvisibleMan wrote:

I respect any and every opinion, but I will never understand any man who says so casually that they don’t care about such a defining part of their body. Anyway I am intact, selfishly what do I care if uncircumcised men want to defend the practice, do what you want. Nothing I said will change anything anyway, society will keep performing this practice and men will keep supporting it.

I don’t think Ancientwisdom was defending the procedure. I think he was objecting to the language being used.

According to Wikipedia, roughly 75% of US males get circumcised. So does that mean that 75% of US males are walking around with “mutilated genitals”? Of course not. That language makes it sound like their gonads are shredded and bloody and non-functional.

Same with the PTSD claim. It’s frankly ridiculous to claim that 75% of US males have a mental illness as a result of a common cosmetic procedure performed at birth.

In other words, some of the claims being presented in this thread sound a bit whiny and hysterical. I suspect that this was Ancientwisdom’s point.

The reason circumcision remains controversial after all these years is precisely because it no big upside *and* no big downside to it. It’s just a dumb, silly tradition that persists because there’s no single big reason for people to stop it.

In other words, if the science came down strongly on one side or the other, then the debate would be solved. But in fact the issue has been studied many, many, many, many, many, many times, and even after all that study the science remains very wishy-washy about it. After all this time, there’s still no strong argument in favor of either universally circumcising all males or universally banning all circumcision

If you want to do the reading yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Society_and_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies

Anyway, I think that’s why Ancientwisdom is raising a fuss, and I kind of agree with him. It sounds fake and over-the-top to complain of “genital mutilation.” It’s a purely cosmetic procedure with no major upside *or* downside. No one is defending it. It just would sound better to drop the “genital mutilation” talk and maybe complain instead about “unnecessary cosmetic surgery” or something more along that line.

I understand the need to complain about this stuff. As men, we don’t want to continue doing the stoic white knight thing while women keep slowly tilting the playing field in their favor. In a sense, it’s good to get a little whiny and hysterical about these things, if only to let people know that we’re getting sick of being undermined.

But still. You’re talking about a medical procedure that 75% of US males have undergone. I was circumcised at birth with no ill effects. I don’t really want to hear that I have “mutilated genitals.” That sounds over-the-top. I don’t defend the procedure; I just don’t like hearing my genitals described as “mutilated.” Because they’ve been pretty good to me, circumcision or not.

[Anonymous 0]

Oops. Here I was defending Ancientwisdom, and in the meantime he’s posting. Sorry about that, Ancientwisdom. I thought you had disappeared for the night.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

@ Two step,

A voice of reason. Thank you. I am guilty of being passionate about issues. You laid it out very well. The only aspect of the debate you didnt address was the analogy to pedaphelia. I have a nephew and nieces, whom I love DEARLY.The pedophilia disanalogy struck me as perverse, and I am shocked no one else mentioned it.

Key Master,

I have read MANY of your posts. Youre an intelligent man whom I respect, and find immeasurable councel in your words. But please understand what I am saying here: one doesnt just THROW out a PEDOPHILIA analogy, with zero consequences. If we begin to do that, then words are cheap. And have no value. Comparing being circumsiced to CHILD RAPE, is insane. I for one, have more value and integrity to make such a false comparison.

Resident cynic.

[Anonymous 0]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

@ Two step,

A voice of reason. Thank you. I am guilty of being passionate about issues. You laid it out very well. The only aspect of the debate you didnt address was the analogy to pedaphelia. I have a nephew and nieces, whom I love DEARLY.The pedophilia disanalogy struck me as perverse, and I am shocked no one else mentioned it.

Key Master,

I have read MANY of your posts. Youre an intelligent man whom I respect, and find immeasurable councel in your words. But please understand what I am saying here: one doesnt just THROW out a PEDOPHILIA analogy, with zero consequences. If we begin to do that, then words are cheap. And have no value. Comparing being circumsiced to CHILD RAPE, is insane. I for one, have more value and integrity to make such a false comparison.

I didn’t even notice the pedophilia reference. Whatever.

There’s a lot of heated rhetoric on all sides of this issue. I’ve seen the circumcision issue debated for decades, and I’m always amazed how heated it gets.

I think the main thing to remember is that we’re all more or less in agreement on the essence of the thing, in other words, few people are actually in favor of it; it’s unnecessary cosmetic surgery. So it’s just a question of finding language that we can all agree on.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

Anonymous wrote:

Ancientwisdom wrote:

@ Two step,

A voice of reason. Thank you. I am guilty of being passionate about issues. You laid it out very well. The only aspect of the debate you didnt address was the analogy to pedaphelia. I have a nephew and nieces, whom I love DEARLY.The pedophilia disanalogy struck me as perverse, and I am shocked no one else mentioned it.

Key Master,

I have read MANY of your posts. Youre an intelligent man whom I respect, and find immeasurable councel in your words. But please understand what I am saying here: one doesnt just THROW out a PEDOPHILIA analogy, with zero consequences. If we begin to do that, then words are cheap. And have no value. Comparing being circumsiced to CHILD RAPE, is insane. I for one, have more value and integrity to make such a false comparison.

I didn’t even notice the pedophilia reference. Whatever.

There’s a lot of heated rhetoric on all sides of this issue. I’ve seen the circumcision issue debated for decades, and I’m always amazed how heated it gets.

I think the main thing to remember is that we’re all more or less in agreement on the essence of the thing, in other words, few people are actually in favor of it; it’s unnecessary cosmetic surgery. So it’s just a question of finding language that we can all agree on.

Honestly, the pedophilia and child RAPE comparisons, were the only reasons I felt this topic was reply worthy. Such CRAZED, lunatic irrationality should be addressed and cut off like the cancer it is.

As far as the ORIGINAL topic goes: I would rather have a circumsised HEAD on my c~~~ than not. Genital “mutilation” lol. Just…Good…God.

Pansy ass talk.

Resident cynic.

[Anonymous 0]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

Honestly, the pedophilia and child RAPE comparisons, were the only reasons I felt this topic was reply worthy. Such CRAZED, lunatic irrationality should be addressed and cut off like the cancer it is.

As far as the ORIGINAL topic goes: I would rather have a circumsised HEAD on my c~~~ than not. Genital “mutilation” lol. Just…Good…God.

Pansy ass talk.

At 59 years old, I’m certainly no youngster myself. But you’re definitely “old school.” And I mean that in a good way. 🙂

[martygParticipant 103]

Unbelievableyetnot wrote:

In many cases mutilated men feel just as victimized. They have support groups and psychological counselling. I can easily find you examples if you’d like. 

How much of this is because men are told over and over that this is how they are supposed to feel? This is the same manipulation that turns women into zombie feminists.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

Genital “mutilation” lol. Just…Good…God. Pansy ass talk.

I will buy that for a dollar, because the first time I heard the term “genital mutilation” (with regards to circumcision) I thought that was extremely worded. BUT!!! As I stated earlier, I also didn’t think much of circumcision as being “extreme” until I looked closer at “the issue”, and realized it is a BIG bone of contention among men than I was ever previously aware.

Many grown men who got snipped are P~~~ED.
Conversely, other uncut men are signing up for it in adulthood.

AND…… when I was forced to watch SexAndTheCity (against my own will and better judgement) to humor a girlfriend who I made the mistake of buying the box set for for Christmas one year……. there was an episode where Charlotte (the prissy brunette) speaks about it as cosmetic preference. That’s where I was like “GIVE ME A F~~~ING BREAK”. She mocked her un-snipped boyfriend over LUNCH conversation with her friends and then acted like an uncut dick was some kind of a freak show. Then when he agreed to get snipped she got all perky and excited “OMG REALLY?? YOU WOULD DO THAT FOR ME?????”

Now that’s f~~~ed up. The way they over-trivialized and treated it like shade of lipstick was all f~~~ing wrong. The way they wrote it in and she pretended like it was some kind of compliment to HER when he was doubled over in agonizing pain.

It’s not a trivial matter. And for many it’s a BIG deal.
I can understand that even though the topic was a total non-issue for me in every example I can reflect on.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Author]

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