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Tagged: circumcision
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NioZen 4 years, 3 months ago.
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Anonymous0I don’t know what study you’re talking about, but the one I linked refers to the WORDS of circumcised men:
AbstractInfant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men> have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault.In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.
Alright, I’ll come back and address these issues, since I raised them.
Down in the footnotes of that same Australian study, you find crap like this:
Even though research suggests harmful effects of circumcision, […] psychological factors may make it difficult for circumcision advocates to stop promoting the practice (Goldman, 1997, 1998, 1999). Presumably, grief for the lost sexual body part and its functions, and the resultant denial of loss is important because it may explain the circumcised “adamant father” (who unreasonably insists on the circumcision of a son in the face of contrary evidence) as well as other manifestations of the circumcised male such as the “I’m circumcised and I’m fine” syndrome (Bigelow, 1995; Ritter & Denniston, 1996). Grief and denial in relation to involuntary circumcision may well play a role in the psychology of the circumcised male (Parkes, 1998). Such factors may figure even more prominently among those doctors who devote their entire medical practice or a substantial portion thereof to circumcising normal healthy boys when there is no medical reason to do so (cf. Bigelow, pp. 94-99). Some trauma victims experience a compulsion to re-enact the trauma (van der Kolk, 1989). Circumcising infants may to some extent involve re-enacting the trauma of one’s own circumcision. A survey of randomly selected physicians showed that circumcision was more often supported by male doctors who themselves happened to be circumcised (Stein, Marx, Taggert, & Bass, 1982).
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/That’s a dead give-away that the study is heavily biased. When you see stuff like that, you know damned well that the researchers finger-f~~~ed the data to get the results they wanted. Hypothetical example:
“Doctor says to patient: Circumcised people suffer from PTSD, mutilation, and the after-effects of having been raped.”
Patient says to doctor: “I’m circumcised and I’m fine.”
Doctor writes in his notes: “Patient is suffering from the ‘I’m circumcised and I’m fine’ syndrome. Patient is in denial and needs immediate medical attention.”
Crap like that is called “pathologizing normal behavior.” Someone behaves or says something normal, and doctors re-interpret it according to their own lights and turn it into an illness. With that kind of reasoning, dishonest doctors can get any result they want. It’s how healthy people end up in insane asylums.
That study is crap. The issues raised in that study aren’t even mentioned in the Wikipedia articles that I linked. And the Wikipedia articles are a pretty good overview of the subject.
But I think you uncircumcised guys are missing the point. You’re trying very hard to turn us circumcised guys into victims of a procedure that you don’t like. But here is the problem: Us circumcised guys don’t feel like victims.
Well he does:
Sure, you can cherry-pick cases that prove your point from the Internet. There are always people out there whining about everything under the sun. If you argue that way, then you can make any silly argument in the world.
Trouble is, you’re faced with a number of circumcised males right here on the message board, and they’re not agreeing with you. And in response, you’re tuning them out and telling them that they’re mentally ill and can’t judge for themselves.
And you wonder why your message isn’t getting through.
Don’t just cherry-pick crap from Internet that proves your point. Circumcised people are right here talking to you. You claim to be speaking for circumcised men. Fine, here we are, right in front of you. Deal with *us* and *our* concerns, i.e., that we don’t like you pathologizing us and turning us into freak shows.
Okay, NOW I’m done. For real. I can’t be bothered to spend my life doing Internet debates over silly crap like this. I would prefer to be doing something positive with my life rather than typing long posts arguing with a hard-core anti-circumcision zealot.
Don’t forget everyone….
The world is out to “fix” men and change them right from day one. Like you were born with a “defect”, and the world will treat you that way. The circumcision. Teachers telling you to “calm down” and injecting you with Ritalin. My own teacher telling me I would be expelled for sneaking into the girls residence – because I liked girls. I was wrong and evil and bad and needed psychiatry – which I flatly refused. Then women (like your wife) will spend the next 40 years telling you what’s wrong with you.
Basically, all through life you can expect to be treated like a piece of s~~~ and your pains or concerns don’t matter.
It doesn’t even matter if it’s blown out of proportion.
That it really bothers you ….. means nothing to them.When a woman says “that wasn’t very nice”, the world leans in a little closer and adjusts it’s speech.
When a man says “That wasn’t very nice”, he is told to take another dick and put it in his ass.The world does not give a s~~~ about the pains and complaints of men. Doesn’t even give a s~~~ if you die. In fact, it would prefer you did, as long as you made someone else money along the way, your life wasn’t entirely pointless. Nobody give a s~~~ when you have been wronged. Its even written into the laws and legal system. In the eyes of others, eating a bullet is more respectable way of dealing with it than sobbing about anything that really hurts. We’re conditioned that way – since the crib and the circumcision.
“AW that that doesn’t hurt. He’ll be fine.”
We have all come to EXPECT this. I don’t really expect any other reaction from others than “LOL genital mutilation?? Gimme a break , don’t be such weak pansy ass”. I expect to be called a f~~ if I order bananas in my pancakes. We expect to be told to “man up” when we speak honestly about the perils of signing a marriage contract.
So what do we do? Cover it up with humor: “Marriage is for gays”.
Nobody can call you a week butt hurt pansy ass douche f~~~~~ry for that. And you don’t have to explain to them that you prefer to hang on your earnings, house, and foreskin.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.
Anonymous0No one is saying that *you* need to lose *your* foreskin. I’m just arguing that I don’t want to be called a mutilated, mentally ill, assraped freak simply because *I* lost *my* foreskin.
It’s just minor cosmetic surgery. Get over it.
It’s just minor cosmetic surgery. Get over it.
Whats’ that you say?. Your divorce cost you $3 million? Dude it’s just money. Get over it.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.
Anonymous0It’s just minor cosmetic surgery. Get over it.
Whats’ that you say?. Your divorce cost you $3 million? Dude it’s just money. Get over it.
I admit that my last divorce was a genuine assraping. 🙂 But you get over it. Can’t spend one’s life as a victim. 🙂
I admit that my last divorce was a genuine assraping. 🙂 But you get over it. Can’t spend one’s life as a victim.
Forget spending your LIFE as a victim. As a man, you can’t even spend 5 minutes as a victim or even start a single forum thread on the topic without being called a f~~~~~ douche by other people you are hoping MIGHT listen to you for a change…. who will at least make some effort to understand.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.
Anonymous11Circumcision without anesthesia sucks, but I can’t remember it.
Anonymous0I admit that my last divorce was a genuine assraping. 🙂 But you get over it. Can’t spend one’s life as a victim.
Forget spending your LIFE as a victim. As a man, you can’t even spend 5 minutes as a victim or even start a single forum thread on the topic without being called a f~~~~~ douche by other people you are hoping MIGHT listen to you for a change…. who will at least make some effort to understand.
I’ve seen this debate played out repeatedly over the years. I’m always surprised at how heated it gets. I guess men tend to get touchy about criticism of their penises, cut or uncut.
It’s like I said earlier. No one is actually defending the procedure itself. The problem is: If I say that I’m fine with a cut penis, uncut people tend to hear that as pressure to get cut. They’re in the minority, after all. They would rather hear that it’s a gruesome, horrible procedure. Conversely, if someone tells me that getting cut is gruesome and horrible, I have to complain. Frankly I don’t consider it that big a deal to have a cut penis.
From my perspective: Rather trying to make the procedure out as something horrible and gruesome, it would be better to attack the procedure on the basis that it’s unnecessary, purely cosmetic, and involves surgery without the patient’s consent. It could easily be delayed until the man himself is old enough to make that decision himself.
I would be fine with that kind of an argument.
Oh well, I’m out of this thread. I’ve stayed long past when I said I would leave.
I’ve seen this debate played out repeatedly over the years. I’m always surprised at how heated it gets. I guess men tend to get touchy about criticism of their penises, cut or uncut.
Yeah.
/video/woman-castrates-husband-women-laugh/
But it’s not really anyone else’s place to tell him how “touchy” he should feel about his penis. That TV show and general social attitude p~~~ed more men off far more than any topic in this thread. The message: You should have your dick cut off, you deserve it. I wasn’t kidding when I said the f~~~ing world doesn’t give s~~~ about your dick or how you feel about it. They will cut it off and LAUGH AT YOU.
Who would be surprised how heated it gets?
Its’ not open for debate. Attn: All c~~~s, bitches and Rabbis.
A man’s dick is none of your goddam business. Punto Finito.
Keep your hands and opinions off. It doesn’t belong to you.Oh well, I’m out of this thread. I’ve stayed long past when I said I would leave.
This isn’t personal.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Even though research suggests harmful effects of circumcision, […] psychological factors may make it difficult for circumcision advocates to stop promoting the practice (Goldman, 1997, 1998, 1999). Presumably, grief for the lost sexual body part and its functions, and the resultant denial of loss is important because it may explain the circumcised “adamant father” (who unreasonably insists on the circumcision of a son in the face of contrary evidence) as well as other manifestations of the circumcised male such as the “I’m circumcised and I’m fine” syndrome (Bigelow, 1995; Ritter & Denniston, 1996). Grief and denial in relation to involuntary circumcision may well play a role in the psychology of the circumcised male (Parkes, 1998). Such factors may figure even more prominently among those doctors who devote their entire medical practice or a substantial portion thereof to circumcising normal healthy boys when there is no medical reason to do so (cf. Bigelow, pp. 94-99). Some trauma victims experience a compulsion to re-enact the trauma (van der Kolk, 1989). Circumcising infants may to some extent involve re-enacting the trauma of one’s own circumcision. A survey of randomly selected physicians showed that circumcision was more often supported by male doctors who themselves happened to be circumcised (Stein, Marx, Taggert, & Bass, 1982).
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/That’s a dead give-away that the study is heavily biased.
They are hypothesizing reasons for the circumcised man’s denial of loss and some people’s insistence on the practice’s perpetuation despite not knowing any different (having never been aware of having a foreskin) and in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary (loss of foreskin, lubrication, majority of nerve endings/feeling etc.) Their speech is couched in “some” and “this may explain”.
Your summation of this part of the study was: some old bogus study from Australia claiming all circumcised people have PTSD whether they admit it or not. The study never makes such a claim.There’s no reason to reply to your doctor/patient scenario as it’s sheer speculation. The study explicitly says: Some circumcised men> have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault. And on top of that, I gave you an example of one. Ironically in denying this, your are showing irrational denial.
Crap like that is called “pathologizing normal behavior.”
Normal in terms on numbers doesn’t mean acceptable in terms of ethics. If one person brings attention to someone who got molested, that person is a great person and the molestor is rightfully blamed. When hundreds of millions of men are being molested by the exact same standard of no consent, suddenly the one who points it out is a “zealot” for having a problem with something that is “normal”.(molestation is at it’s most fundamental, a violation of consent regarding use of the human body – which is what this practice objectively is). Now that’s been established, a study is not biased for proposing why people are in denial on that and are insistent on circumcision regardless of the evidence.
You know what’s also normal? Men having no reproductive rights, men failing at education compared to women and so on. That it’s normalized is a point against your position, as it it explains your lack of perceived victimization.
That study is crap. The issues raised in that study aren’t even mentioned in the Wikipedia articles that I linked. And the Wikipedia articles are a pretty good overview of the subject.
The same Wikipedia that has a clear pro-feminist and anti-MRA slant.
Sure, you can cherry-pick cases that prove your point from the Internet. There are always people out there whining about everything under the sun. If you argue that way, then you can make any silly argument in the world.
So let me get this straight. You’re saying his victimization, and men who are in his position, doesn’t matter. Because you think it’s “silly” and circumcision is “normal”, and so that makes it right and not molestation.
Is that your position?
Because I can tell you that argument is an irrational pile of nonsense.
Trouble is, you’re faced with a number of circumcised males right here on the message board, and they’re not agreeing with you. You’re tuning them out and telling them that they’re mentally ill and can’t judge for themselves.
When did I call you mentally ill? I called you a victim of molestation by objective standards of ethics. Not by your feelings and not by whats normal.
Don’t just cherry-pick crap from Internet that proves your point. Circumcised people are right here talking to you
Firstly only two have talked to me. And one acts like a troll. Second of all you’re not understanding the concept. It’s EXPECTED that the majority would report NOT feeling like a victim due to the normalization and ubiquity of this practice. But that there are undeniably some who report feeling like they were raped, some who have PTSD, some who get hurt and some who die, is reason enough to start drawing comparisons to sexual abuse. And certainly enough to ban it.
You claim to be speaking for circumcised men. Fine, here we are, right in front of you. Deal with *us* and *our* concerns, i.e., that we don’t like you pathologizing us and turning us into freak shows.
Victims of molestation aren’t freakshows and it’s rather disgusting to call them that. In being circumcized, you haven’t done anything wrong. And you seem to have an inherent idea that “victim of molestation” automatically and inherently means “mental disorders”. When I never said that. It is NOT my argument that everyone who has been circumcised has mental disorders.
Okay, NOW I’m done. For real. I can’t be bothered to spend my life doing Internet debates over silly crap like this. I would prefer to be doing something positive with my life rather than typing long posts arguing with a hard-core anti-circumcision zealot.
Look either stay and debate me or don’t. I ain’t got time for your drama.
Anonymous13I’ll weigh in as one of the few who don’t care. Mine was done when I was about a week old. I’m sure it hurt like hell. I don’t remember, I don’t have PTSD about it. I hear a lot of opinion about how I should be totally freaked out and depressed about it. I’ve never been one to listen to people tell me how I should think.
It makes sex feel better for us circumcised men, I’ve heard…I’m incapable of comparing it to anything except a condom…I put on two condoms once, is that how it feels? I took one off after a few pumps, it was a stupid experiment. The prevention of infections is another argument that has some validation to it, however in our urbanized lives where we bathe or shower all the time, it is kind of irrelevant…unless you are a prepper of sorts and want your kids to be equipped with ancient methods of survival and health. Some mgtows are religious to a degree brothers, and we must respect that. After all it is the feminists who argue against judeo-Christian values more than us. They are masculine religions – only hijacked by the pope and the royals – then corrupted – but don’t forget Martin Luther, and other good men who changed that – slowly as they did, they were the forefathers of America’s founder fathers that laid foundations for things like the constitution. Other very elite people – and their feminist minions have hijacked protestant religions again – using religion as a way to keep the status quo of marriage and propel religious brands of feminism – even though there is no woman alive in western society who is A) available or B) will actually follow the guidelines of the Bible and listen to her man and respect him as head of the household
Their argument for marriage is bankrupt – as all women to today are brainwashed against, not only religious convictions – that used to be taught and propagated to them, but they are also brainwashed to go against what should be natural for women and to go against what is genetically instinctual in them.
No one is saying that *you* need to lose *your* foreskin. I’m just arguing that I don’t want to be called a mutilated, mentally ill, assraped freak simply because *I* lost *my* foreskin.
The only one calling you that is you. So you’re projecting a lil bit.
TwoStep can take two steps from one step from a cliff’s edge.
Ancientwisdom, if (s)he was halfway honest, would have registered as Ancientbulls~~~, because the latter word of the latter concatenation is a fair representation of his (or her, given the posts concerned) contributions to this forum. May every computer within five feet of him spontaneously combust so that his contributions will cease.
Jeff Goldblum Played The Rabbi At James Franco’s Bar Mitzvah On Saturday (17oct15) And Performed A Mock Circumcision On Him As Part Of The Coming-of-age Celebration.
Seth served as the night’s host, and told the audience the bar mitzvah wouldn’t be complete unless James underwent a circumcision, which is typically performed by a rabbi on baby boys.James willingly lay down on a gurney to undergo the fake operation as Goldblum appeared onstage, dressed as a rabbi, ready to perform the cut.
Zac Efron also made an appearance in a pre-recorded video, in which he played James’ “foreskin” and joked about protecting the actor for a long time. He then requested to be buried in Bungalow 3 at Hollywood’s famous Chateau Marmont, the room where comedian John Belushi was famously found dead following a drug overdose in 1982.
Miley Cyrus served as the evening’s entertainment, hitting the stage wearing a blue leotard and carrying a giant blue foam Star of David, as she performed her hit We Can’t Stop and a cover of Rick James’ Superfreak.
If only they knew the truth about what was going on in Africa.
Durban – A group of disgruntled parents are suing a doctor at a private community clinic who, they allege, performed “illegal” circumcisions on their teenage sons without their permission or properly explaining the procedure.
As a result, they allege, their sons suffered “irreversible damage and permanent disfigurement” along with temporary pain and suffering, emotional trauma and shock, an invasion of privacy, loss of dignity and “a potential loss of sensation during sexual intercourse”.
Eight applications are pending before the Durban High Court in which the parents are each seeking R500 000 in damages from Dr Shabeer Suleman, who runs the clinic in Umlazi.They say they have also laid criminal charges against him.
But Suleman – with the support of the Society for Family Health (SFH), which manages the clinic –insists that the boys and their parents were treated properly and ethically as part of a programme encouraging circumcision to reduce the risk of HIV infection.
Summonses against Suleman and what is described as the “New Start” clinic were served in March this year.http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/doctor-sued-over-illegal-circumcisions-1.1932214
MORE than 127,000 HIV negative men were circumcised during the first eight months of the year against an annual target of 266,580, ministry of health officials revealed last week.
he figures for this year represented “a great achievement”, although more still needs to be done, said Brian Nachipo, advocacy officer for the Voluntary Medical Male Circumcision (VMMC) in the ministry of health.
e was addressing journalists in Gweru at a workshop organised by Population Services International (PSI) and the health ministry.
“The country is responding positively to the program with over 500,000 men circumcised since 2009,” said Nachipo.
“Our target for 2015 is to circumcise 266,580 men and, as of January to August, we had circumcised a total of 127,790 men.”He added, “In terms of our cumulative total since inception in 2009, we have so far circumcised 540,473 men.
“We are excited because we are nearing the halfway mark of our five year target.“However, we still have a long way to go but this is clear indication of positive response that we have in Zimbabwe.”
Nachipo said there was also need to demystify myths and misconceptions around male circumcision to improve participation.Studies have indicated that circumcision reduces the risk of getting HIV by 60 per cent.
Zimbabwe is targeting to circumcise 1.3 million men by 2017.http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-25492-Health+min+127,000+men+circumcised/news.aspx
ouncil of Europe ends effort to ban ritual circumcision
People who hate religion in general, and Islam and Judaism in particular, often attack circumcision as a cruel, barbaric ritual lacking any positive outcome. Others attack it on secular humane grounds as a needless, cruel procedure. And some attack circumcision for hidden political reasons of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.
So it is good news that PACE-The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe reversed its earlier recommendation that European countries ban ritual circumcision, when on October 1. 2015 it passed (73-6) a resolution on religious freedom. PACE did not reversed its earlier recommendation due to recent scientific discoveries which explained the health benefit of circumcision; but due to the active political pressure of an alliance of Jewish and Muslim organizations.
Jews and Muslims have always known that doing something that God wants Muslims and Jews to do must be good. But in the last few years scientists have discovered that a benefit of circumcision is that it provides heterosexual men with considerable protection against infection by HIV and other sexually transmitted viruses. Christian men in Africa are now being urged by doctors to become circumcised.
A more recent discovery is that uncircumcised men harbor more bacteria around the head of the penis than do circumcised men, and the mix of microbial species is decidedly different in the two groups. These changes in microbial numbers and diversity may explain why circumcised men are less likely to get infected with HIV.The report, which appeared April 16, 2013 in mBio, finds that when the foreskin is removed from the head of the penis, resident microbes become exposed to oxygen and many bacteria flee the scene. The scientists suggest that high amounts of bacteria, and the presence of poorly understood anaerobic microbes in uncircumcised men, might contribute to inflammation, which would facilitate infection by HIV lodged in the foreskin.
“It’s cleaner.”
Yeah sure, it was cleaner 2000 years ago when people were dirty as f~~~.
Now we have these things called showers, just saying.It is a common failing of childhood to think that if one makes a hero out of a demon the demon will be satisfied.
I got my turtleneck whipped off for a medical issue as a very young child. This is the only circumstance I think has any justification. Any other reason (including barbarous religious practices) is clearly a form of child abuse. When I wear a condom I might as well be wearing a Wellington boot, I can barely feel anything – but that’s the only real issue.
I can imagine I be pretty p~~~ed off about it if it had happened just at the whim of some sick adult, but I’m still pretty sure that it wouldn’t induce PTSD or some other such drama. I’ve read a lot of crazy s~~~ from the anti-circumcision camp about circumcised men being less than whole, spiritually deficient, developmentally afflicted etc etc. To be honest I find a lot of their bulls~~~ arguments to be pretty offensive.
We only dream this bondage. Wake up and let it go. - Vivekananda
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