I Believe MGTOW to be wrong, or at least, misnamed

[TemperedParticipant 55]

Welcome, @thetruth. Let me start by saying that I’ve read everything you wrote. You are right about almost all of the stuff you wrote. That’s the good news, here’s the bad news. You are very intelligent. This puts you to far greater odds of being a caught in the left-brain prison. That is where you are right now and that is where you are writing from. For your sanity and well-being consider stepping out once in a while. Now to my response.

You seem to think that MGTOW refuse to have anything to do with women. WRONG. MGTOW is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. In this society, getting married strips you out of your self-ownership and can limit your liberty to a great extent. That is why we avoid it like a plague. Even gettings kids can turn out to be emotional and FINANCIAL suicide for alot of men. MGTOW might have children in an environment where having children is on their own terms and not on the governments terms.

Secondly. You seem to have this idea of rescuing society, changing society and fighting against those who oppressed us and put us in this mess. Well.. let’s face the the truth, TheTruth. This horror-like charade of a civilisation has gained such a momentum that if you were to fight it, you’d be crushed, burned, sliced to pieces, chewed on and then spit out. Most people realize that the cost-to-benefit ratio is way up the chart on that one. You do no-one any good by destroying yourself. The best chance to rebuild something new, is when the old crumbles and falls.

Let me tell you something else directly relevant to the above. MGTOW are people who have realized that they don’t owe no-one anything and they owe themselves everything. If you think this is egoistic, well let me tell you something. Dumbfounded altruism is the reason we are here in the first place, because this is what has been abused and exploited to get us here. Healthy altruism is closely-related to egoism because it comes with the insight that you cannot help anyone until you’ve helped yourself.

Women need men and if we are to never experience this kind of chaos again, we need to make sure they realize it on their own terms. We need to make sure they have something to look back to and say “HOLY S~~~.. I hope we never get to that point again”. That is why I think what is happening today is a critical and most-important stage of humanity through which we will progress. There will come a point in time where history teachers will teach our children about the horrors of feminism and marxism and the atrocities it brought about.

I fully understand that you want to skip the part where the critical mass of ignorance and ill-decisions has been reached and society implodes, but you see you can’t really skip that part. There will be blood, there will be fighting, there will be cries and there will be sorrow and despair in great quantities. I for one would rather favor a quick death than slowly being boiled to death.

For those that make it to the other side of this s~~~pile, trust me.. they won’t be making the same mistakes.

[TruthySpectator 2]

Interesting.  I have made similiar, not the same, but similiar observations over the past several months.  I don’t view you as an enemy.  Alot of guys here will hate you however.  You have “haters” whereever you go though.  Its not just MGTOW.

Part of MGTOW is having their own opinions as long as they can respectfully argue and/or give evidence for them.

MGTOW is fundamentally reactionary in many respects, however it is an increasing movement.

And as an actual philosophy it can be contradictory at times, however I have pointed that out on seperate threads and seperate instances.

The reason I am here are because there are alot of valuable points and discussion on societal subjects.  The conversations and debates are good.

But is everyone correct?  No.

You have my welcome.

Thank you! One thing that puts me (and I’m sure boat-loads of other not-so-extroverted guys) off about the manosphere is how much suspicion I always get when I register anywhere to post. I mean, I’ve offered to pm mods a picture dated with handwritten relevant information proving I’m male and I’ve only been banned as a result.

“Becuase it would mean that, as smart as we are, our forefathers were considerably dumber to have been unable
to notice this metric of society”

Don’t assume that we can use an iPhone that we are more intelligent than our forefathers were. They knew how to keep women in check, and I will admit it’s a never ending battle. Of course, their women were not as f~~~ed up as ours. Situations where women become extremely promiscuous and allowed to destroy things are indicative of society in decay.

If you read that again, you would see that you and I agree. My point with that question was to suggest that our forefathers were JUST AS intelligent as we were, and as a result it IS IMPROBABLE that MGTOW would NOT be in the public sphere, or even that any civilizations should exist. Because, again, as we all know MGTOW is a very destructive influence for societies, especially rotten ones.  But yeah, no disagreement from me here.

“However, male physical superiority is often overhyped ”

Dude, I’ve never met a woman that is physically superior to me as you admit plus I have incredible long distance stamina and am legendary in my athletic endeavor of choice for it. I will admit they are more cunning than I in the art of manipulation. I am more cunning then they are in the arts of strategy and improvisation.

No, no, you misunderstood. I wasn’t saying that women can be or are prone to even approach males in strength. I was saying that the difference between us is made to appear larger than it is for women’s benefit. Don’t get me wrong. The difference IS SIGNIFICANT. I’m aware and actively champion male physical superiority, you have to make sure you understand what I’m saying. I know that it sounds convoluted, but stay with. I’m saying that women are much more capable than we are led to believe. Their capabilities don’t match ours, but their weakness is overplayed and our superiority is overhyped more than it deserves to create a specific mental image.

“So men can ‘experience’ what its like to be female and vice versa”

-Not possible in either direction.

Right, that’s my point. My point is that since its not possible, there is a certain myopia that is naturally developed in both sexes. The ‘mystery’ to women as it were. But these ‘blindspots’ can be …. exploited by carefully crafted propaganda, in the same way that software backdoors forced by govts can be exploited by black hackers.

Actually, until the advent of modern feminism men and women played complementary roles where one’s weaknesses were covered by the other’s strengths. Modern feminism has inverted this dynamic. Girl power is bulls~~~ just as the shibboleth that every man is an evil incompetent pig is crap.

Completely agree, see my above post clearing up the ‘strength’ misunderstanding.

I’m not sure of your age but I am detecting that you may have hidden femprop residue influencing your thought processes on these matters.

Late 20s. No. I’m AA, we didn’t buy into that s~~~ at the same time the rest of America did having gone through it several decades before. I was red-pill before I knew I was blue-pill. Waiting for the one and wondering why none of these hoes could match up to the woman in my head, so I never wifed any of them up.

MGTOW is calling women out for what that have become which are raging deluded narcissism machines. MGTOW is holding them accountable for the damages they have caused to good men, themselves, and many children. MGTOW is saying hell no to playing a rigged game.

This is also correct and I don’t disagree. But my point is that the game is more complicated. What if men and women are actually on the same side (like we’re forced to be), and mgtow is just the second of a one-two punch knockout combo?

[…Spectator 1165]

Yeah, definitely a girl. Key tip off is she’s saying “its more complicated than that.” nope.

“aren’t we both on the same side?” nope. girl for sure.  oooooohhhh the complexities, ohhhhhh the dramas, the endless discussion.

John Doe, you may have just met your future ex wife today.

[DybbukParticipant 182]

Conspiracy theories are so tiring and so inane.

[TruthySpectator 2]

Tempered wrote:

Welcome, @thetruth. Let me start by saying that I’ve read everything you wrote. You are right about almost all of the stuff you wrote. That’s the good news, here’s the bad news. You are very intelligent. This puts you to far greater odds of being a caught in the left-brain prison. That is where you are right now and that is where you are writing from. For your sanity and well-being consider stepping out once in a while. Now to my response. You seem to think that MGTOW refuse to have anything to do with women. WRONG. MGTOW is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. In this society, getting married strips you out of your self-ownership and can limit your liberty to a great extent. That is why we avoid it like a plague. Even gettings kids can turn out to be emotional and FINANCIAL suicide for alot of men. MGTOW might have children in an environment where having children is on their own terms and not on the governments terms. Secondly. You seem to have this idea of rescuing society, changing society and fighting against those who oppressed us and put us in this mess. Well.. let’s face the the truth, TheTruth. This horror-like charade of a civilisation has gained such a momentum that if you were to fight it, you’d be crushed, burned, sliced to pieces, chewed on and then spit out. Most people realize that the cost-to-benefit ratio is way up the chart on that one. You do no-one any good by destroying yourself. The best chance to rebuild something new, is when the old crumbles and falls. Let me tell you something else directly relevant to the above. MGTOW are people who have realized that they don’t owe no-one anything and they owe themselves everything. If you think this is egoistic, well let me tell you something. Dumbfounded altruism is the reason we are here in the first place, because this is what has been abused and exploited to get us here. Healthy altruism is closely-related to egoism because it comes with the insight that you cannot help anyone until you’ve helped yourself. Women need men and if we are to never experience this kind of chaos again, we need to make sure they realize it on their own terms. We need to make sure they have something to look back to and say “HOLY S~~~.. I hope we never get to that point again”. That is why I think what is happening today is a critical and most-important stage of humanity through which we will progress. There will come a point in time where history teachers will teach our children about the horrors of feminism and marxism and the atrocities it brought about. I fully understand that you want to skip the part where the critical mass of ignorance and ill-decisions has been reached and society implodes, but you see you can’t really skip that part. There will be blood, there will be fighting, there will be cries and there will be sorrow and despair in great quantities. I for one would rather favor a quick death than slowly being boiled to death. For those that make it to the other side of this s~~~pile, trust me.. they won’t be making the same mistakes.

 

Thank you for your response. I’m glad to see that you’re not jumping the gun to attack me. Can you elaborate on the left-brain comment? My personality is deliberately left-brained I think lol, which is probably why I get banned everywhere. I have trouble with small talk and making pleasantries/intros, but I can chat at length about things that are important to me, like mgtow.

Let me reiterate, that I AM MGTOW. I am NOT young (naive rather). I am NOT new to this movement. I’ve lurked pua forms since before MGTOW was an acronym, such were my difficulties with women in youth. I watched the original Nacho Vidal from the forum after happy bachelor torpedo his mgtow forum and I watched/lurked as mgtowhq rose to prominence in the year and a half or so since. So I thank you, for your concern but I don’t want it to be misunderstood; I’m a veteran in this game as well. Not bravado, just so you know you’re not talking to a blue-pill with shimmering eyes hoping to go back to a NAWALT.

No gents, my argument is that MGTOW is a rational reaction to an IRRATIONAL premise, i.e. a general is about to flank us and wipe us out using subterfuge.

I said all that bravado-y stuff above so you can automatically know for yourselves what’s true and false.

For example, now you should know that this

You seem to think that MGTOW refuse to have anything to do with women. WRONG.

and this:

. Secondly. You seem to have this idea of rescuing society, changing society and fighting against those who oppressed us and put us in this mess. Well.. let’s face the the truth, TheTruth.

are completely wrong. I have no misgivings about the nature of MGTOW or saving this s~~~hole of society. *However* would you agree that its fair to say that MGTOW as a movement places a heavy focus on leaving women behind and ‘going to greener pastures’? Brethren I would submit to you that we are being played. That by leaving women behind to focus on our fleshlights and our cars (don’t get rid of em, god bless fleshlight!) we are walking into a beautiful trap DESIGNED TO APPEAL TO THE MALE EGO. The male desire to not need to rely on anyone for anything. The male desire for open roads and adventure. What if, like women, we are being sold a lie? We’ve seen how badly they lie to us, just look at Brian Williams. For years people respected that ass-clown. They looked up to him and expected him to report the news accurately.

Now people are realizing what a charlatan he is. Wait till they find out its the ENTIRE news and entertainment industry. What if MGTOW is a ‘ready-made’ solution that appeals to our natural instincts to ‘run away’ when things get bad with women? Just like feminism played on women’s
natural tendency to f~~~ with men just to reassure themselves. ALL of feminism is a giant s~~~ test that women in the know are surprised men failed. That’s how they knew who was alpha enough to f~~~; whoever was smart/strong enough to go against the crowd and say ‘no that’s bulls~~~’.

 

[Anonymous 11]

@Truth.

Thanks for the comeback. You might want to consider breaking your writings up into smaller chunks to make it easier for you to make your points to us. You obviously are at 100 wpm on a keyboard. There’s no need to drop 50 things out at once as it leads to confusion.

I came into this world just as modern feminism was being foisted on us as kids along with early the brainwashing attempts and implicitly rejected it as such. I’m glad to see that some in your age range have rejected it. I’m not anti-woman per se, I am anti-feminist. Unfortunately, I’ve had to play that stupid game with far to many of them and just eventually gave up as there was no intelligent life amongst the vast majority of them.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Listen Up:

Stop acting like a girl.  Just because someone disagrees with you about “somethings” does not mean one disagrees about “everything”.  As MGTOWs we have the right to not agree on everything.  His argument really isn’t complicated.  He just pointed out how people are being played against eachother for the economic and political benefit of others.

If that is too complicated, and the only way to prove your “wit” is to name call, the next question one can ask is “who is the real bitch?”  Because, my good sir, you could answer that simply by looking in a mirror.

I will get kicked off eventually, for whatever reason.  Probably because I will ask a question that no one likes the answer too.  Until that day and hour, you have to deal with me.

 

 

[Anonymous 11]

Yes, my intuition too is saying we may have a girl here. Obviously, a fast typist as well as copying and pasting input.

Withholding my final judgement at this point though. FYI: I’m a right brained dominant analytic

[TruthySpectator 2]

… wrote:

Yeah, definitely a girl. Key tip off is she’s saying “its more complicated than that.” nope. “aren’t we both on the same side?” nope. girl for sure. oooooohhhh the complexities, ohhhhhh the dramas, the endless discussion. John Doe, you may have just met your future ex wife today.

 

I am NOT a female and have no problem proving it to you if necessary. Not every male is the same and speaks the same. I don’t believe your skepticism is warranted. Clearly the logical construction of my post would preclude me from being female? Even if its an ‘inane conspiracy’ theory,

take a look around you chief and tell me what kinda monster conspiracy would be necessary to change the natural order of things this badly? What you think that after thousands of years of f~~~ing around behind your back, “Oops.” and the cat’s out of the bag? I’m saying we’re on the same side, not out of some feminist/anti-feminist save me trope, but because men and women are human it stands to reason that men look out for women and women vice versa in their own way.

I mean let’s talk about what MGTOW never, ever talks about. The other man. The guy(s) who the wife is f~~~ing. MGTOW seems completely focused on the UNhappiness of the husband, to the complete EXCLUSION of the happiness of those other guys. Don’t get me wrong, the husband situation is wrong and if you get married you should never cheat, and honesty/integrity is the ONLY way to true long-lasting love. Because we men find devotion sexy, I get that.  But what about the other guys who are having a blast (literally lol)? As much pain as she is causing she is MULTIPLYING IN PLEASURE.

See, MGTOW is primarily focused around the concept that women suck and screw us over. Which is as we can see in this society generally true. But my contention is this is a mirage. By focusing on the dysfunctional marriage (which again shouldn’t happen), but neglecting the pleasure she and her lovers are having, MGTOW becomes a negative, half-full lifestyle. Because it only looks at the negative side of dealing with women.

I’m pretty sure this line of thought has already convinced you I’m a woman. But that’s probably because its so very different from the standard MGTOW echo-chamber. And yes, MGTOW is an echo chamber. Has been for as long as I’ve been reading. Chef (very well liked, senior mgtow) left mgtowhq because of the same paranoid and myopia that I’m trying to point out here. But let me try to prove the last paragraph for you.

Most MGTOW would warn you to avoid dealing with women because of the divorce, and the false-rape etc. etc. This would be good advice that any man should take. However, this advice only applies in the situation we’re in, which is f~~~ed up. My whole purpose of posting this is to say, “CONTINUE BEING MGTOW! Destroy this system! BUT REMEMBER! You need women. Eventually. Do not fall for the male ego trap of thinking that women are useless and don’t contribute anything!”

Women seem like they don’t contribute for three reasons:

1) Women generally contribute less that men do due to less (what I call) ‘activation energy’. The energy that let’s us just get up and go do stuff. Women see to lack this. Indeed, I’ve heard similar comments to “They’re always just ready to go….” referring to males.

2) Society is geared to make women seem less capable than they are. They can’t work so they have to ‘stay at home’. They’re weak so its ok to see her laying down all day watching soaps, and its ok to accept her lazy excuses. By coddling them, they really do become weak.

Most importantly:

3)Women’s contribution to our lives is hard to see/understand when you’re stuck in the materialistic world. Everything can seem like a man’s game when the most obvious signs of change are predominantly male. Men have trouble seeing women’s point of view because men are DO’ERs women are not. But the things women do that activate us spiritually, mentally and physically CANNOT BE REPLICATED BY ANYTHING ELSE. It is for this reason that men have always sought women, especially nice ones. To find a beauty to his beast. A nice soft creature, not one like who is mean and brutish (this is how he feels about himself. This lack of softness, like a woman’s lack of security causes man to seek woman.) Without these proper incentives in place, you cannot have harmony.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

 I watched the original Nacho Vidal from the forum after happy bachelor torpedo his mgtow forum and I watched/lurked as mgtowhq rose to prominence in the year and a half or so since.

Not to change the thread direction, but how did that forum fall?

No gents, my argument is that MGTOW is a rational reaction to an IRRATIONAL premise, i.e. a general is about to flank us and wipe us out using subterfuge.

I am glad you can see the importance of the “premise” in an argument and/or philosophy.  You don’t know how many debates I have had simply because of the premise one started their argument with.  What a lot of “rational” people don’t understand is that the “premise” to their argument is an act of faith rather than reason.  A lot of unintelligent men cannot discern the difference.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

I am NOT a female and have no problem proving it to you if necessary. Not every male is the same and speaks the same. I don’t believe your skepticism is warranted

Watch the number of men who are going to call you a girl.  It will be a lot.  Ignore them, a lot of MGTOW will attempt to reason for and/or against you using precise arguments.  Not everyone here will act like a man, but that is wherever you go.

Personally I enjoy a good debate.  It is like a fight, it only exposes our own weakness so we better understand ourselves.

[TruthySpectator 2]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, my intuition too is saying we may have a girl here. Obviously, a fast typist as well as copying and pasting input. Withholding my final judgement at this point though. FYI: I’m a right brained dominant analytic

 

Again, I will PROVE WITH PICTURES that I am male for Chrissake! I do type quickly. I read at around 2000 wpm and can hold an argument while formulating another in my head with ease. I can speak 3 languages, am a musician and avid tennis player. My short term memory is horrible, but long-term is sharp as a whip. Yes my speaking style and ideas seem feminine but I again will prove that I am male. Pic, soundwave, whatever I don’t care. You’re definitely right though I don’t need to reply as much, but I’ve bottled this up since 3 (!) bans at mgtowhq facing the same suspicion and trying  my hardest to just TALK about this. The strong opposition I met there and here, unfortunately, lends credence to my theory that MGTOW is/may be a ‘limited-hangout’, controlled-opposition deal. I’m not passing judgment, only displaying the logical thinking that, aside from proving my masculinity, is what brought me to MGTOW in the first place, while everyone else was still bluepilling.

 

 

[Anonymous 11]

@Truth:

See how much shorter our response posts are to you. Slow, down, breathe deeply and relax. Your zeal is what was triggering my GirlDar. It’s not always right so don’t take it as an insult if you’re not, but you’ve got three of us with that gut feeling right now.

[AFTParticipant 2726]

Initially my gut feeling was this is a woman, let’s face it whenever a new member starts their first post with I’m not a woman, ….. well I overthought it reading the first post, but there were a few tell tale indications.
But although she may have some points, the overall argument leads nowhere.
Basically she’s arguing MGTOW is all wrong, and women are victims, with no alternatives offered.

When the war cemeteries are half full of the corpses of dead conscripted women, only then will women have earned the right to speak of equality. Sidecar “A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do.” - Bob Dylan

[…Spectator 1165]

John Doe: come on man. that one liner i threw out there was f~~~ing hilarious. just maybe not to you or your new buddy. you seem to have forgotten the principle female strategic move: show up somewhere unannounced, get touchy/feely or bold unwarranted claims, try to divide the existing infrastructure, take spoils back to the hive. classic old school move. oh well. proceed with the bonding w your new buddy. i’m laughing my ass of at this s~~~. thanks for the lulz man. in the meantime, can you two lovebirds take this over to philosophy like i so kindly suggested earlier in the thread? i think you two have a LOT of…uh, sorry, discussion to do.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

To use one’s “gut” or “intuition” is fundamentally feminine in that it is subjective to emotion.   I think there have been enough posts discussing this already.

[Anonymous 42]

It must be a Girl, all the fun just got sucked out of the room! All of it! This Sucks! Machine gun Kelly-telle-truth, your keyboard must be severely worn, with broken and missing keys.

[HimeoParticipant 471]

John Doe wrote:

I am glad you can see the importance of the “premise” in an argument and/or philosophy. You don’t know how many debates I have had simply because of the premise one started their argument with. What a lot of “rational” people don’t understand is that the “premise” to their argument is an act of faith rather than reason. A lot of unintelligent men cannot discern the difference.

Not to derail the thread, but I loved this quote given your deistic / theistic world view from the “Can Atheists be MGTOW?” thread.

Happily we have found a premise that has proven itself true reliably and repeatedly through observation and experimentation. We can now safely abandon philosophy for science. Join us, brother, in the abandonment of the false premise of religion! /sarcasm

Truthy wrote:

I am NOT a female and have no problem proving it to you if necessary. Not every male is the same and speaks the same. I don’t believe your skepticism is warranted. Clearly the logical construction of my post would preclude me from being female?

Your arguments aren’t setting off skepticism. It’s the emotional manipulation you’re lacing your posts with. “I’m a guy.” “AS fellow MGTOW.” Trying to obfuscate by speaking in generalities instead of specifics and hiding behind platitudes like “it’s complicated”. What was the Shakespeare quote, “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”?

It’s offensive that you believe women are incapable of logical reasoning or imply that MGTOW are required to believe this.

[TruthySpectator 2]

AFT wrote:

Initially my gut feeling was this is a woman, let’s face it whenever a new member starts their first post with I’m not a woman, ….. well I overthought it reading the first post, but there were a few tell tale indications. But although she may have some points, the overall argument leads nowhere. Basically she’s arguing MGTOW is all wrong, and women are victims, with no alternatives offered.

 

Sorry, that’s not true. Let me be briefer as its easier to read my argument, which is as follows:

1. There is a hidden agenda to control large portions of the population.

2. This agenda is hidden for obvious reasons (“Yes come take me my overlords!”)

3. *PART* of this agenda was splitting the family unit, and men and women by extension, apart.

4. This has been mostly successful.

5. MGTOW emerged as a natural response. TO AN UNNATURAL/****ARTIFICIAL**** stimulus.

6. Perhaps this *natural response* male is actually the *INTENDED EFFECT* and not feminism.

7. 5 and 6 imply that women are not the enemy, as many MGTOW seem to believe.

8. 5-7 imply that there IS A DELIBERATE enemy with a concerted plan.

9. By 1-8, Perhaps *WE*. ARE. SCREWING. *OURSELVES*. BY GOING MGTOW because the enemy is not WOMEN as we thing, but something else.

10. In case of #9, MGTOW would *ONLY be addressing the symptoms* of the problem, in a manner akin to how gun registration ‘addresses’ (but importantly, DOESN’T SOLVE) the problem of gun violence. Indeed, the end result of gun registration is ultimately MORE gun violence on the citizenry by the govt, as the Germans showed. I’m saying MGTOW is like registering your guns. The family unit is the only thing that keeps them from winning (perhaps?)

NOTICE I didn’t say marrriage is. Or a license. Or the govt. Or this s~~~ty society. Please, READ WHAT I’M SAYING carefully. Do not allow your assumptions from previous discussions to cloud your judgment!

 

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Listen up:

I previously stated that I “had similar, but not the same, observations over the past few months.”  I am allowed to say this, because I am MGHOW.  I have made similar statements to many new members.  An idea is an idea.

you seem to have forgotten the principle female strategic move: show up somewhere unannounced, get touchy/feely or bold unwarranted claims, try to divide the existing infrastructure, take spoils back to the hive.

Actually you displayed similar behavior with your “jokes” and accusations.  I will be frank, you are not that intelligent and run more off of emotion.  For your own sake you should stop talking because you make yourself look bad, along with me.

[Author]

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