For Mgtaoist: Interpreting MGTOW: the wisdom behind the malace

[Gravel PitParticipant]

This is not aimed totally at Mgtaoist, but to anyone interested.

The commonplace red pill rage, contagious disgust for feminism, lamenting of whoredom and malice towards the family courts are all just surface level antics here. These are men making conversation but this is not the point of MGTOW. The phenomenon would not have survived if MGTOW was that shallow.

I surely would not be here. Luckily I excavated the rabbit hole and found pay dirt in the form of philosophical truth.

First, let me just say, celibacy is not a “pre-requisite” to
“mghow status.” This idea has been fiercely rejected many times on this site. Those who abstain from sex tease those who do not and vice versa! No one is advocating strongly for either. Furthermore, do not get caught up in the acronyms (MGTOW and NAWALT) which are semantic quicksand. Nothing is absolute, these are merely concepts to illustrate points. Do not over-analyze them, understand their point and move on.

Now, on to the Bedrock of MGTOW. The macro view.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

We have a collection of linked species going back several million years. These species were sexually dimorphic. All this term means is that there are two sexes, asymmetrical in their characteristics, by natural selection. Do not confuse it with being complimentary, males and females are not complimentary. Their naturally evolved roles are lopsided, totally different in purpose. Everything about each is tailored distinctively without correlation to the other; their psychology, their genetics, and their anatomy.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

To break it down, the mammalian creatures going back hundreds of millions of years, all reproduced the same way. Pregnancy. Not fertilizing eggs on a stream bed or some other form of reproduction. Pregnancy, which required that one sex carry the unborn with them for a time, birth them and nurse them. This is a considerable duty, one that is time consuming, dangerous and difficult.

As you can assume, the female of the species was vulnerable to attacks from predators, weak from carrying the load of a fetus, ill-equipped anatomically to combat or to perform heavy locomotion like hauling dead meat. For this to work, this is where the sexual dimorphism comes in. The male has a narrower pelvis, broad muscular shoulders, cunning and intelligence, and also the rich desire to fornicate. In short, he is going to run fast, fight/hunt, lift heavy objects and secure her so he can have continued access to her vagina (whether she likes it or not). Oppositely, if she wants to survive, she is going to only care about obtaining a male to do those things for her. And if he is killed or conquered, she is going to transition to a new male with little to no grieving or emotional turbulence. She is hyper-tuned for emotional manipulation, hypo-agency, proxy-agency, no remorse etc… She has the accompanying genetic desire to fornicate and produce a child, nurse it. She has the desire for submission, as a pre-requisite to survival.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

These traits were refined, perfected, and bred for. The fittest survived. The fittest were the genes that continuously got better at this design. This went on for 100,000,000’s of years. This did not start with the 1950’s or ‘the pill’ or even human beings 200,000 years ago… This BS has been going on forever.

So why is this an issue? The evolutionary-psychologically adapted traits that ensured our survival for eons have become a massive liability. We have literally bred women and men into a near useless state. Let’s be fair, they’re perfectly adapted to ice ages and volcanic eruptions but terribly suited for the modern framework we’ve invented. We’re at a terminal point.

We can go on aping ourselves into extinction or we can objectively understand biological determinism and propel ourselves into the stars. Given the current state of affairs, propelling ourselves further will require disconnecting reproduction from sex. Its that simple. This will require a male sexual revolution for starters. This seems monumental but it’s only a tiny step in the right direction. The entire project will take dozens of lifetimes.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

I could go on. I could write a textbook pointing out every single evo-psych liability which causes immeasurable societal dysfunction. It’s costing us worlds, literally.

When you understand what drives the behavior of the human ape and specifically what drives each sex. It becomes transparent.

No one is saying you can’t nuzzle yourself into any number of perfect situations with a tolerable female and live out your days in bliss. Some ranch in Montana or a traditional Christian village in central America… Perhaps many places in Asia or Russia. Its certainly possible to live a semi-content life with a female. But the nature of the sexes is in constant turmoil with modernity. Its more likely than not you will clash with it no matter where you are.

MGTOW is about understanding this core truth about our species. We understand women and ourselves. We know they are not at fault any more than a lion is at fault for eating an antelope. But if you ask me, do I want to live the ape life like millions of my fathers before me? The answer is hell no.

I’m awake to the mundane urge to fornicate. I see it objectively as a primal desire. Its useless to me. I’m more interested in the furtherance of our species, not gloating clownishly at how a son looks like me. I don’t need to feel the altruism and pride of having provided for a female.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

All my ancestors have been doing this for eons, and now its to the detriment of our species. I sort of owe it to those countless men and women to do something different. I have reason to. And I believe that they would encourage me in that spirit. We stand on their backs and move forward.

[narrow road travelerParticipant 1680]

What

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. --Sun Tsu

[Branched offParticipant 10967]

I do appreciate a man who likes to take the long view through history and pre history but I am not sure that I can come to the same conclusion as you

“Given the current state of affairs, propelling ourselves further will require disconnecting reproduction from sex. Its that simple.”

We are sexually reproducing creatures. Sexual and a sexual reproduction split a long time ago and all the higher animals reproduce sexually.

A woman is like fire -fun to play with, can warm you through and cook your food, needs constant feeding, can burn you and consume all you own

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Branched off wrote:

Gravel Pit — “disconnecting reproduction from sex”

I don’t think we can do it either, least not right now. All that type of stuff is A Brave New World, hundreds of years from now. It will happen though, we’ll either end up there or back on the Savannah.

The main hope I have, if I care at all, it would be great to see a Male Sexual Revolution on par with what women got the last 40 years. I honestly don’t care though. I’ve gone 5 years without sex and could go another 50 easy. Some paternity rights would be great too… I let the MRAs spin their wheels on that stuff.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

The main intent of this OP is to illustrate the depth of MGTOW philosophy. It’s not just about trashing MSM articles or arguing what being a ‘mghow’ requires (LOL)…..these guys seem to be missing the macro picture…

The dialogue about a 100 million year old biology playing out.

I’m not here to be p~~~ed off about women. That was mgtow stage 1 for me (2013 and 2014).

I’m also not here to rant about changing mgtow in to a celibacy movement. It doesn’t hold water.

I’m here because I can see what the human Ape is. That is mgtow for me, apart from an endless potential to carry out male interests and pursue self enrichment and self progress…

[narrow road travelerParticipant 1680]

You’ve made your own playground. Live with it.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. --Sun Tsu

[Anonymous 3]

Gravel Pit,

Great post! Your thread starts to be similar to something I posted some time ago, but the you divert to a lot of interesting and new stuff.

Two different species

The problem I see with your ideas is that I dont think millions of years of evolution can be changed easily. The sexual strategy started with single cells, not even with mammals or humans. Everything in nature drives towards reproduction, and that comes from sex.

My series “two different species” was about some basic human drives or instincts. To grow and reproduce is one of those instincts, that is why we conquered the whole earth, instead of being limited to a small and comfortable ecosystem.

The next step is the stars, we think… However, this is more of the same: grow and reproduce.

This is an instinct that subdues the individual freedom to the collective drive. This is the instinct that created marriage, religions and laws, so that society could thrive and grow. Individual interests, freedom and divergent values could not be allowed to interfere with the human herd’s path to global dominance.

And once this ecosystem is conquered, what now?

[Anonymous 3]

In this point I think we diverge also. While you say the MGTOW might be a evolutionary adaptation, I see it more like the symptom of sick society.

When any society becomes to oppressive to men, they they simply walk away. In the old days there were always new places in the wild were men could get away from the oppression and be free: the wild west comes to mind.

But now there is nowhere to go.

If we get simple access to space, then I guess MGTOW would be the first ones to leave. Not because they want to expand the human sphere, but to get away from its oppression and build a free place for themselves.

In this sense MGTOW are the non-conformists, they are the men that cannot be tamed, that are free in spirit.

They cannot care less about society or building a new one. It just happens that society is the cancer that follows them.

After MGTOW create a new place for themselves, then blue pills come and women to. We got priests and the law. Next thing you know, MGTOW have to leave again.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Clu, thanks man. Your thread was excellent, people should read it. I loved every word.

I don’t presume to change evolution. The only way to truly change us is gene modification. That’s a whole different thread/topic.

For a lot of guys (MGtaoist’s recent thread about MGTOW being a cult) MGTOW seems to be aimless complaining at women, resentment from relationships and boyish refusal to go back to women.

I’m always trying to squash this shallow view of MGTOW and bring forth the biological picture of what we’re dealing with. This is the heart of MGTOW, understanding our humanity objectively and scientifically.

I’m not even speaking about Gene Modification or somehow getting rid of the sexually dimorphic evo-psych traits. I think MGTOW is silently advocating for a full acknowledgement of these traits (instead of the current cultural denial of them) and we’re hoping for cultural and technological ways of addressing them safely. This is far and away from anything MRA’s are fighting for but some proposals entwine.

We can tailor society to account for sexual dimorphism so it will be less devastating for us (not saying it still wont have an effect). We can handle our predispositions better than we currently are.

As we know, the deck is stacked against men today. Women were given total sexual liberation. The marriage contract that was invented to combat hypergamy, formerly in men’s favor to enter, is now completely serving women. Women got the vote and women got welfare and then they were given the pill. At this point, women were totally free from mothering and any sort of obligation to the species. They got a total free pass. What was already a bad situation got terribly worse over the last century. We now have all the things we talk about, low birth rate, single mothered criminals, emasculation of boys etc…

Since we can’t undo all those mistakes politically or scientifically. We have to give all those same things to men. A man’s right to choose to be a father or not. A male sexual liberation movement. A male contraceptive. How about ‘prostate cancer awareness month’ and color coordinated pro athletic team apparel to raise awareness of male struggles?

Is the duality of male and female wellbeing a zero sum conflict? …or can we artificially induce society and culture that accounts for these differences to create a sustainable future. I don’t pretend we can create a perfect equilibrium between the sexes but it could be better.

Imagine if 90% of humans born, were from artificial wombs, nursed & mothered by surrogate women paid by the state. Imagine that sex was merely a recreational activity as in A Brave New World. Forget about the soma crap, its just a book, but the reproductive concepts were interesting. I’m certainly not proposing we create a caste system by botching some of the wombs to create an underclass of humans.

I’m envisioning a future where reproduction; all it’s danger, drama, bad stats and needless suffering is removed from sex all-together. Where you’d be free to go and mingle with those females without the fear of unwanted children or financial slavery.

Imagine that the poverty stricken households were abolished. That we maximized human potential from the cradle on, instead of leaving it to chance with privatized reproduction. We could control reproduction. We could move forward.

And all the mating games associated with the male/female mating strategy could be just that, games and play, instead of life shattering events that cause needless suffering for men and women.

If women are hypergamous, chasing alphas, dressing to impress each other, polyamorous, manipulative and desiring of being with children…that is fine! We should let them carry out their instinctive behavior but eliminate the consequences that wreck havoc on society.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

And for men, if we’re hard wired to chase pussy and give unselfishly to women. To try and impress them with our strength and win their sex…that is all fine as well. We need to let ourselves play out these instincts without it causing the species to go under.

Men and women need to be given an open playground to act out their sexual frustrations and instincts without it causing total dysfunction for the whole species.

I think the way to do this is to quit pretending that leaving reproduction up to women is a good idea. They have clearly been escorted out of that role by culture and technology. And we’re still forcing it on them as if they are going to become altruistic. Men are the only ones holding on to this notion of history and its killing the world.

Just look at all the negative impacts. Anyway, a lot of things need changing. It will take some serious thinkers and even better speakers. It all starts with men’s rights. Hopefully MRA’s can win some battles. I wish I could leave Earth for a few centuries and come back to see how it all played out.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

While you say the MGTOW might be a evolutionary adaptation, I see it more like the symptom of sick society.

To me its the same thing. Historically, men did not care about themselves. Yet the sick society you speak of has gotten so bad, this thing called MGTOW just caught spark and now we see a group of men behaving in a wildly different way, and in much larger numbers, than ever before. This is why MGTOW is so special, is counter to the way men have always been.

They expect us to just keep drudging on but we’re at the end of that rope, a new paradigm has begun. A new mindset has emerged. Men, at least this small minority, are evolving new mental limbs.

[Anonymous 3]

Man, I love this! Thanks for this thread.

Gravel Pit wrote:

I don’t presume to change evolution. The only way to truly change us is gene modification. That’s a whole different thread/topic.

I love SciFy because it gives us an image of “what if?”. In ScIFy books we can see hundreds of different experiments and see how they would be.

You are talking of the Huxley and the brave new world. And you are using it as a blueprint instead of a warning.

The kind of society you speak also is depicted in an old movie called “Logan’s run”. You should watch it.

But the part of genetic scares me, “the island of Dr. Monroe” comes to mind.
Besides my natural aversion to the idea of man playing God, I there is the philosophic question: can intelligent apes, designing a super-ape, design a human? Or would they be limited to their nature and design a muscular ape with longer claws and bigger teeth?

Can men ascend beyond themselves?

[Anonymous 3]

Gravel Pit wrote:

This is why MGTOW is so special, is counter to the way men have always been.

I would counter this with spirituality. No spiritual master was married of wanted anything to do with women.
In fact, most religions in their core try to deal with the danger of the sexual instinct.

The problem with religions is that once the founder is dead, then very normal humans take over and distort the knowledge for very human purposes of power and sex.

Siddhartha, the Buddha, was a married Prince. He left his palace were he could enjoy all pleasures of life to seek answers about the nature of life. His father sent half naked dancers to attract him back (throughout sexy dancing, we wold believe). Yet when they fell exhausted, with their painted faces all messed up, he could see the ugliness of the deception behind their appearance.

I am not telling this story with the art it deserves, I am just reminded of what struck me as pertinent.

Jesus asked some of its disciples to abandon their family, wives, fathers, mothers, sons… And so it is written in the Bible:

“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:26

In Taoism it is said:

When the great Way is abandoned,
Benevolence and righteousness arise.
When wisdom and knowledge appear,
Great pretense arises.
When family ties are disturbed,
Devoted children arise.
When people are unsettled,
Loyal ministers arise.

And about families this is the Taoist interpretation of the text:

The family ties are sacred in China, as well as in most societies around the world. The Confucian tradition describes those ties as duties. Lao Tzu implies that they are natural, as is shown among animals. There is no debate involved in it, nor should rules be at all necessary. But when Tao is lost, so are the natural family ties.

If the children still remain devoted to their parents, there seems to be no need for complaint. But this devotion is odd and flawed. There are conditions, from the children towards the parents as well as the other way around, even when the bonds seem unreserved. Parents have expectations on their children, and children have demands on their parents. Devotion is a contract that usually contains a lot of fine print.
In that way, devotion can be compared to pretense.

So, actually what we do in MGTOW is to point out the the unnatural conditioning, the traits of the unevolved human spirit. It is amazing how much of it is present in the teachings of the true spiritual masters.

This life is a dream, an illusion. All masters say this and claim: wake up!

What do MGTOW say? For me its the same thing. The return to a free and natural human being.

[FrostByteParticipant 19005]

I enjoyed what you wrote and applaud that you took the time to research, hypothesize and articulate to us. Our nature and the society we have built are at odds with each other. This much I think we can all agree on, or why else would anyone be here looking for ways to navigate this new hostile-towards-men environment. What you suggest is worth consideration and I hope that others take a more serious look at these social issues and offer up their theories.

I have often thought that all species are meant to die off just like all individuals do. It seems to be what they do with or without a natural purging(ELE). The panda is a good example of a species dead set on extinction. Extraordinarily narrow diet and procreation is minimal at best. What do you do with those at the top of the food chain to control population? Eradicate the species when it’s time is up. How? They can kill each other off. Male and female can resent each other enough to stop mating. We can stop cooperating with each other. That’s my take on biological determinism. Were suppose to die off completely and make room for something else.

If you rescue a damsel in distress, all you will get is a distressed damsel.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Anonymous wrote:

…Huxley and the brave new world. And you are using it as a blueprint instead of a warning.

Yup, I need to order that book and re-read it. It’s scary in some of it’s futurism but then again, some of it is actually desirable and would solve many of our problems. I’ll never forget reading that 15 years ago and especially the last page. “North, North-east, East, South East…” describing a hanging body slowly turning on a rope. Strong writing. That whole book really is astounding.

Anonymous wrote:

“Logan’s run”. You should watch it.

I discovered it last year and have watched it many times on DVD, its a cult classic for me now. I would not advocate a future like that, except for the recreational sex part, that is desirable. All this sexual repression is costing us dearly. And you’re exactly right, it’s all tied to religion (our species’s 1st major problem, sexual dimorphism is 2nd for sure).

Anonymous wrote:

Can men ascend beyond themselves?

Could homo Ergaster ascend beyond himself? I think we’re determined to.

[Author]

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