Fake Shootings?

[Anonymous 9]

People really underestimate the power of government I see.

Tuskegee syphilis experiment anyone?

Look it up.

[Biggvs_DickvsParticipant 3726]

Ok, I’ll bite. In the name of trying to de-kook mgtow so we don’t get a reputation as complete loons.

1) Men trained to fly Cessna’s can fly a 737 with the accuracy as shown by the steep curve of the second plane hitting the WTC?

I know lots of pilots and they tell me that the open source simulator I use (flightgear) is not only quite accurate as far as the controls and behavior of the plane (they have 737s to fly), but it’s actually a lot harder than a real plane. They’ll also tell you that the hardest part of flying is landing the plane – these guys had no intention of landing.

2) 80% of ground footage that is available is by someone linked to foreign and domestic media agency of some sort.

Miracle of miracles – people in New York who’s job it is to capture footage……wait for it…….GOT MOST OF THE FOOTAGE.

3) Pentagon had only 2 s~~~ty quality cameras to capture a missile-looking thing crashing? Donald Rumsfeld came on CNN and said ~ 2 trillion dollars from defence are missing on Sept 10th. They are still missing.

I think a lot more than that is missing – what about all the cash that disappeared in Iraq? Fraud, waste, and abuse are nothign new – the military even has a special branch/office to deal with it. I don’t see a connection to 9/11. The money used to train up the Muja Hadeen and thus Bin Laden was spent long before that.

4) Ever looked outside on a plane’s window and read “Do not step” on top of wing edges? The wings ARE that fragile. And with some awesome magic they pierced some hundred tons of steel beams of both WTC buildings like knife through butter? Meanwhile no such super wings pierced the Pentagon building?

Ummm no. That’s retarded. The wing edges have the flaps and ailerons which could get bent and not function properly if stepped on. The wing itself is extremely tough. They test these wings by bending them all the way up until the tips touch during the design phase, and then test them again on the plane itself:

If wind alone (tornado) can send a plastic straw through a telephone pole or wood through concrete:

Do you really think it’s a problem for a plane with metal wings moving at hundreds of miles an hour to slice through a building? Really?

5) 19-terrorists can enter USA, blow up twin towers. But Suddam Hussein with all his connections and wealth couldn’t escape Iraq and had to resort hiding in a bunker? Meanwhile, another Muslim terrorist on a dialysis machine evaded capture for over a decade?

I’ll say it again: Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be explained by sheer incompetance.

6) Snowden comes out like some badass hero but he has nothing substantial to say about 9/11, 7/7, JFK, Iraq war, Osama bin Laden, host number of other nations that CIA bankrolled for civil unrest? He just so happened to end up in Hong Kong (China) and Russia – both nations in debt of Rothschild central banking (if you haven’t caught on the conspiracists believe bankers own the US and governments worldwide)? NSA just forgot to him on no fly list? Twice? Now we all know NSA is watching and topics like this people will read and decide not to make a comment in case they get canned for holding ‘terrorist-friendly views”. So Snowden did NSA’s bidding. We can’t have an open discourse critiquing the official stories anymore. Because NSA is listening. And Snowden is still a hero. BTW for the MGTOWs- a dude making 0k/year has a stripper for a gf? Looking at the guy I say he doesn’t have b~~~~ to go out in middle of the night to turn the leaking tap off let alone take on US government. And also he gives interviews on major TV stations without ZERO censorship? LOL! May be I’d believe him if he wasn’t a high school drop out.

I know plenty of high school dropouts that make good money in tech. What’s your point? I’m pretty sure he didn’t come out with his info until AFTER he left the country so there was no reason for him to be on a no fly list. You want to bet if he can fly out of the US today?

And why the f~~~ would he have anything to do with JFK or 9/11 or any of your other BS conspiracy crap? He just whistle blew on the mass data collection he was involved with.

I bet right about now you’re thinking I’m some sort of government plant or something. That’s retarded. I’m a IT guy with many extraordinary qualities but do not and have never worked for a government agency of any kind other than a short contract for a city government to update their windows desktops for Y2K.

You’re making MGTOW look bad with s~~~ like this, Please stop.

"Data, I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know." --Captain Picard,

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

All I am suppose to do is ask questions…I don’t need to bring any evidence of my own…

You just succinctly described the distinction between science and conspiracy theories.

Science is verifiable: it makes hypotheses then objectively and empircally verifies them in the real world.

Conspiracies are inverifiable and thus do precisely the opposite of science – asks questions and makes claims and if one can NOT disprove them, the conspirators say their claim has merit.

These are LITERALLY logical fallacies called “cancelling the hypothesis”. Below is a quote from a logic text:

Description: Explaining that your claim cannot be proven or verified because the truth is being hidden and/or evidence destroyed by a group of two or more people. When that reason is challenged as not being true or accurate, the challenge is often presented as just another attempt to cover up the truth, and presented as further evidence that the original claim is true.

Logical Form:

A is true.
B is why the truth cannot be proven.
Therefore, A is true.

Resident cynic.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

Ok, I’ll bite. In the name of trying to de-kook mgtow so we don’t get a reputation as complete loons.

Who gives a s~~~ about MGTOW reputation? This isn’t a movement. The only loony thing in this thread is the willingness of people to just blindly go along with official stories and try to make other independent thinkers out to be crazy. P~~~ off.

[ScandinavianParticipant 590]

This is why I quit watching “news” (read: propaganda) years ago. The official story, no matter what major incident we are talking about, is such a mixture of truths, lies and guesses that one is just as well informed never even hearing about it. As for 9/11 there is a s~~~load of things that doesn’t add up. The one bothering me personally the most is the buildings going down in free fall, this will not happen no matter how weakened the structure may be by an impact or heat.

Anyhow; no matter how obvious false flag this s~~~ is, noone can do anything about it, so I won’t stand in the streets shouting over it. I just live my life the best I can. If the govt want to pretend, I let them, and they let me be, for now. I’m closing in on 40. If I get 30 more, then they can do what they want. I have no kids, and of that I am friggin happy seeing how the world is turning out.

[Biggvs_DickvsParticipant 3726]

Snake wrote:

Who gives a s~~~ about MGTOW reputation? This isn’t a movement. The only loony thing in this thread is the willingness of people to just blindly go along with official stories and try to make other independent thinkers out to be crazy. P~~~ off.

Truth hurts, and ad hominem only hurts your credibility.

Considering how much good MGTOW is doing for men, I think a LOT of us give a s~~~ about how we look to the world.

I know I do.

There’s far to many REAL problems with our government. Like the way the Federal reserve is basically a legalized private counterfeiting operation wholly “owned” by it’s member banks. That always sounded like a conspiracy theory to me, but it’s in fact very well documented even on the Fed’s own website. Technically they don’t call the shareholders of the regional banks “owners,” but the shareholders are the only ones with access to the discount window which is basically free money after they “borrow” it at near-zero interest and loan it out at full market rates.

That’s what has enabled much or most of the corruption we have, and a lot more good would come from waking people up to that fact than kook conspiracy theories which can be pretty easily disproved with the scientific method.

"Data, I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know." --Captain Picard,

[ScandinavianParticipant 590]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

Like the way the Federal reserve is basically a legalized private counterfeiting operation wholly “owned” by it’s member banks. That always sounded like a conspiracy theory to me, but it’s in fact very well documented even on the Fed’s own website. Technically they don’t call the shareholders of the regional banks “owners,” but the shareholders are the only ones with access to the discount window which is basically free money after they “borrow” it at near-zero interest and loan it out at full market rates.
That’s what has enabled much or most of the corruption we have, and a lot more good would come from waking people up to that fact than kook conspiracy theories which can be pretty easily disproved with the scientific method.

Those are definitely not disproved. A freshman mech engineering student can tell you things that huge and well-built will not just fall down. It is not a house of cards but a skyscraper we are talking about.
But that is not what I replied to really, but rather to agree with you, at least partially. The national banks is only a piece of the puzzle although a large piece. The biggest problem is the plentitude of private banks creating money out of thin air using fractional reserve banking. Here in the nordic countries they “solved” it by screwing over every definition of the word so they can claim that we don’t use FRB anymore when in all practical aspects we still do.
Remove this system and most other problems in society will follow.

[Anonymous 1]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

Considering how much good MGTOW is doing for men, I think a LOT of us give a s~~~ about how we look to the world.

That is the problem.
When you give a s~~~ about how you look to the world, you pretty much give them power over you. Mgtow works because it frees men from such expectations, and you are pretty much putting those expectations back on your shoulders. If you care about what others think about you, then no matter what you say all they need to do to shut down your argument is to shift the focus on YOUR REPUTATION. All the sudden, you are focusing on what people THINK about you instead of the truth.

Besides, I didn’t read all the posts here, but there is one thing about conspiracy theorist debunkers is that they more often than not throw off skepticism out of the window. They shift the focus from proving that something happened, to pointing out there is no way to prove that something didn’t happened. That is not how the scientific method works, at least not as far as I can tell. You make the conclusion AFTER looking at the evidence, not before. Now and then I see people trying to debunk conspiracy theories using OTHER CONSPIRACY THEORIES. If you are making a claim, you are the one with the burden of proof, not the skeptic. It is the job of whoever is making assertions that something HAPPENED to prove the assertions through evidence, not the job of the skeptic to prove that the assertion did NOT HAPPENED with proof. By this logic, than I can prove that there is a pink unicorn on the moon, by pointing out that there is no evidence proving that there is NOT an unicorn on the moon.

Besides, conspiracies are real. That is why there are laws (at least on my home country) against it. The crime of conspiracy to commit murder, for example. Calling it a conspiracy don’t make it non-existent. It is a shaming tactic like many others, an attempt to shut down arguments.

People are getting too worried about on other people “feelings” and thoughts, and not so much about FACTS and TRUTH. That is the downfall, not only of Mgtow, but civilization.

My 2 cents.

Cheers.

[Anonymous 18]

Chad wrote:

You can ask all the questions you want, really. Why was it sunny that day? Indeed, why? Why did I sleep in that day and not hear about the attacks until after lunch? Was I in on it?

I don’t quite understand your logic here. But you do make some good points in the rest of your post. Let me try to address some in a logical fashion.

Chad wrote:

Asking questions is perfectly human. It’s what makes us so damn awesome. It’s why were running the planet and not the giraffes. But asking questions and demanding answers for any and every little discrepancy or loose end you can dream up, and then insinuating a conspiracy when you aren’t satisfied with the answer takes it too far.

I believe it’s a bullet proof theory that can stand every little discrepancy of loose end I can dream of. 9/11 official story is far from a bullet proof explanation backed by evidence. I hardly dreamt anything I posted earlier. It all happened.

Chad wrote:

Thousands of people would have to be involved. And they ALL have a lock tight lip about it? Nobody spills the beans to their wife one night?

That can be argued for any government classified operation. Stealth bomber and more importantly Lockheed F-117 were developed in secrecy. Using your argument a 1000 people must have been involved to design, approve the design, manufacture, quality assurance, and then test a plane right? Most had good time with their wives as well without Soviets finding out about it. I could go as far as saying even if you had a million people working on the 9/11 project only a handful could put the pieces together and were aware of it in its entirely. That’s what governments are supposed to do.

Chad wrote:

Not one Democrat gets a whiff of it and takes the info to skewer the Republicans?

I am sorry I stopped believing in Democrats vs Republicans long time ago. You can make fun of me. I just don’t think I can go through the process of showing you its all one and same. Voters are just happy to be given a choice. Like Keymaster says “Married men have a choice: Do you want steak or chicken for dinner tonight?”

Chad wrote:

Nobody delivers an anonymous package to the news with all the details to blow the lid off the whole thing?

Then there could never have been anything secret ever planned or carried out. Because by your argument anonymous leaks are reported in news all the time. But they are not. Even if people reported who would print such a thing?

The myth that the 9/11 commission report represents an adequate investigation into the events of 9/11 is perhaps best exposed by the commissioners themselves, 6 out of 10 of whom have questioned the commission and its conclusions personally (namely Kean and Hamilton, Kerrey, Roemer, Lehman and Cleland). Commission co-chairman Thomas Kean once famously remarked that the Commission was “set up to fail.” https://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20100305_911_whistleblowers.htm

6/10 is a majority. In democratic society that calls for a new commission established by voters from scratch,

I am not sure it was reported in New York Times or Fox News. But lately it may have been.

Chad wrote:

But none of the conspiracy theories hold water long enough to be considered true.

So far you haven’t objectively pointed out anything other than to say they don’t hold water.

Chad wrote:

In the interest of the security of a nation you can’t just tell the people everything you know, for then your enemy knows what you know.

With that line of thought the government could lead the population to believe anything. How about everything you say or do being recorded and saved in a database for your own security? Hmmm. It’s nothing new. Ancient Roman empire has utilized the same fear propaganda to achieve it’s mandates.

Chad wrote:

In other words, hold your cards to your chest so your opponent doesn’t get s~~~ on you.

Clearly they failed with 9/11. At least officially.

Chad wrote:

What’s more plausible? 19 fundamentalist suicide terrorists flew planes into buildings? Or, your own government conducted the most elaborate conspiracy ever planned, pulled it off without a hitch, nobody broke code of silence… and Alex Jones has all the inside information?

Hmm I think I don’t even need to answer that question. It seems obvious having read it twice. Regarding Alex Jones he is a multimillionaire who sells male vitality products. Who made him the face of truth movement and why he is granted interviews on CNN and BBC is beyond me. I can at least say he is not mocked and treated like most conspiracist theories are treated in mainstream media. My conclusion is he is an disinformation agent. 80% truth, 20% lies (example: Arabs rule Hollywood).

Chad wrote:

And lastly. Don’t expect me to believe that the wing of a plane is so brittle that you can’t stand on it yet the amount of force the entire craft is placed under would probably rip the skin off your face if you were strapped to the outside of the plane while it flew.

I guess that’s the strongest point you have made so far. I would like to cheat here (and perhaps concede defeat on this point) by pointing out aerodynamics allow it to sheer through air at high speed, my face doesn’t have the contours to do so. Regarding jet engines propped on the wings, my guess is with the tangential force (gravity) being greater at the edge of the wing than closer to the main body of the plane. Similar to pushing a door on its hinge: takes more force to push out near the hinges than at the edges.

Regarding the wings in to WTC:

Top right wing area above.

A 15 ton Fighter jet at 500mph hitting reinforced concrete:

Regardless being in the minority I totally concede your views over mine. It is just circular arguments that can go on and on and on.

My concern is people’s inability to question the official story. What happen on 9/11 is a moot point. What is important however is people learn to ask questions for themselves.

[Anonymous 18]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

I know plenty of high school dropouts that make good money in tech. What’s your point? I’m pretty sure he didn’t come out with his info until AFTER he left the country so there was no reason for him to be on a no fly list. You want to bet if he can fly out of the US today?

And why the f~~~ would he have anything to do with JFK or 9/11 or any of your other BS conspiracy crap? He just whistle blew on the mass data collection he was involved with.

By his own admission he had clearance over all the information NSA had. He was systems engineer or something fancy that didn’t require any security measures applicable to him. He also was able to copy data on his USB stick. Where is all this data? Don’t just call what I have to say retarded when information that is leaked by these whistleblowers trickles down as it suits US administration as their agenda matures. Assad’s mistress studying in UK right around the whole Syria fiasco? Who the f~~~ cares?

The idea is this: he left Hong Kong after Obama administration declared him a traitor. In his hotel room (Citizen 4 documentary) he was receiving calls from media people for interviews. They found out what room he was in. It is beyond stupidity that masses sit in front of their TV praising him as a hero. If he was really a traitor and went on to Russia … by all official accounts that the height of treason. And ANY 3rd world country President would do the best he can to assassinate a traitor in Russia. That’s how you get the point across about what US does to traitors. But well no he has to tell the US population that NSA is tapping on to their texts. And why the double standards when it comes to media censoring men’s rights over feminist agenda and implying its bought out BUT the same agencies pander to a traitor? Aren’t they committing treason by associating with at traitor? Is the population really that dumb to sit and swallow the hypocrisy?

I don’t think I am giving MGTOW any more bad rep than anyone who would drink not have half decency to question things. Why stop at MGTOW then? Plenty of feminists see you giving men bad name by joining a MGTOW forum.

I don’t mean to get personal but calling stuff I write retarded, I guess its fair I make own disagreement plain and simple.

I totally accept the plane wing analogy as my own shortcoming. However, taking things at face value is the first thing any man going his own way should stop.

[Anonymous 18]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

Science is verifiable: it makes hypotheses then objectively and empircally verifies them in the real world.

Conspiracies are inverifiable and thus do precisely the opposite of science

I think you missed my point. There is no theory to verify or merits to be earned. I haven’t proposed anything to be proven or disproven. It was the official version that did that.

Regarding science if there are laws of motion then they are applicable to everything. If there are discrepancies then the science is wrong and to point out the discrepancies doesn’t make one a conspiracy theorist.

There is no room for science here. It’s a debate about a version of truth. You can’t verify truth by using science. Certain parameters can be tested using science but what science would allow you to test 19-hijacker theory is beyond me.

[Anonymous 18]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

I think a LOT of us give a s~~~ about how we look to the world.

Last I check a good proportion of that world is pointing and laughing at you and me and rest of men here. Let’s do some math: 50% of population is women, about 40% don’t openly approve (even understand) MGTOW. 50% men: my guess is 30% are pussy worshippers

With your definition you shouldn’t be a MGTOW. Especially if how you look to the world registers in your psyche.

[Biggvs_DickvsParticipant 3726]

Anonymous wrote:

Last I check a good proportion of that world is pointing and laughing at you and me and rest of men here. Let’s do some math: 50% of population is women, about 40% don’t openly approve (even understand) MGTOW. 50% men: my guess is 30% are pussy worshippers

With your definition you shouldn’t be a MGTOW. Especially if how you look to the world registers in your psyche.

Is it really so bad of me to not want people to immediately think “a bunch of kooks” when they hear the term MGTOW? The way I’m going myself is to set a good example and encourage more men to follow, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

That’s my way, you can go your own way if you don’t like it. My way is encouraging as many men as possible to join us, and that’s not going to happen if we get a reputation as a bunch of kooks. I don’t want to be embarrassed to be associated with MGTOW and there’s nothing wrong with that either.

"Data, I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know." --Captain Picard,

[Anonymous 18]

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

Is it really so bad of me to not want people to immediately think “a bunch of kooks” when they hear the term MGTOW? The way I’m going myself is to set a good example and encourage more men to follow, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

MGTOW and kookiness here are mutually exclusive. We are a small group with respect to the pop culture and may be you perceive any deviations from widely acceptable beliefs to be counterproductive to MGTOW. But then at the heart and soul of things we are standing against the norm by going our own way. Why do you feel a need to line every man with a politically correct version of our world when in essence we should encourage each and every man to come to his own conclusion. It sounds awfully like feminists using shame and fear of rejection to keep men in check. It’s hardly a matter of encouraging more men to follow, f~~~ them. Why? I am here because I have a personal conviction and I disagree with what I see and hear because I should be free to deduce my own conclusions. If anything MGTOW community should take pride in this kookiness. If a man is discouraged from joining here because some asshole iLearn said 9/11 wasn’t all we were told. Then trust me he won’t get this far to type mgtow.com in first place.

Biggvs_Dickvs wrote:

hat’s my way, you can go your own way if you don’t like it. My way is encouraging as many men as possible to join us, and that’s not going to happen if we get a reputation as a bunch of kooks. I don’t want to be embarrassed to be associated with MGTOW and there’s nothing wrong with that either.

I believe it could very well be used as a shaming tactic and make attacks on us. But being a momma’s boy masturbating in basement to porn while never getting pussy isn’t that much of endearing credential to begin with. Who f~~~ing cares if I don’t wanna be a slave to women AND the government? It is the government that is behind feminism after all. So it can’t all be that just and transparent.

[Anonymous 5]

Snake I was looking into the shootings you won’t find alot information on the families. Its very strange. Good post, absolutely tragic tho – both ways.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

I think you missed my point.

No – you missed mine. Im drawing a distinction between methedologies of: thought, epistemology, and arguments.

Your methodology is to ask questions, then tell people to disprove your questions. A scientific method is to form a hypothesis, then VERIFY/PROVE it. Your approach is the antithesis method of all formal logic and reasoning. This is why its lumped in the class of the conspiracy dumpster.

There is no room for science here.

How choice. This statement is oozing with irony. “No room for science” – a conspiracy theorist in his own words.

sci·ence
ˈsīəns/
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

You might want to take note to the previous poster who demonstrably showed each of your points/questions as fallacious.

The idea that you could harbor the thought that wings on a plane are so fragile that they cant withstand a humans weight, yet are capable of flying at hundreds of miles an hour is quite telling. That is beyond me. Im not quick to make assumptions about ones intelligence, but your a rare case study, and demonstrable into the mind of a conspiracy theorist.

In line with your illogical reasoning, you cant even fathom propping up a plausible argument as to what you believe truly happened. Because there is no other plausible explanation.

That can be argued for any government classified operation. Stealth bomber and more importantly Lockheed F-117 were developed in secrecy.

A complete disanalogy; and the fact you cant comprehend it is even more telling. 9/11 occurred in broad day light, in one of the most highly and densly populated cities on the entire planet. New York F~~~ing City, the World F~~~ing Trade Center, involving thousands of eye witnesses, victims, and families of victims.

Youre going to compare THAT with developing a classified plane (stealth bomber) in a classified bunker on a military owned property which involves a fraction of the people, all of whom have security clearances?

I cant debate delusional.

Resident cynic.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

Is it really so bad of me to not want people to immediately think “a bunch of kooks”

No, its not. Deep down everyone here knows that. Thats why there was recently a thread about an alleged MGTOW guys picture taken at a slut walk. Posters were offended that the image the media used for MGTOW was an overweight, slobbishly dressed dude who looked like he was wearing lipstick.

We all care. I think its a rather lazy and tired response to say “Im just going my own way” every time someone disagrees with you. If the former were true in the STRICTEST sense of each word, then we wouldnt want a forum to discuss similair ideas. We would just be busy going our own way. And if they didnt desire either:

Agreement
Discussion

Or
Debate

On topics, then they wouldnt post them on this forum.

Resident cynic.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

Anonymous wrote:

Snake I was looking into the shootings you won’t find alot information on the families. Its very strange. Good post, absolutely tragic tho – both ways.

A crazy man goes on a killing spree in which he has zero motivation or personal vendetta against his victims, but with the sole purpose of killing as many innocent people as possible, and you cant find a lot of information on the families? How is this strange?

The killer had ZERO personal relationship with any of the direct victims. Why would you expect to find any stories on the victims families while they are in morning?

The killers motive was to kill random people. What kind of story do you expect to find on the victims families?

Its as though you cant comprehend that crazy and evil people exist. Ever heard of Adolf F~~~ing Hitler? Was that a conspiracy as well? Good f~~~ing god…

Again – what do you think really happened?

Resident cynic.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

I also find it quite ironic that virtually all of these 9/11 “truthers” and conspiracy advocates are complete and utter LIBERALS.

Yes, most of the people who believe their own government planned and executed mass killing of their own citizens, are the very same people who want:

More of the citizens money to go to government

Trust the government with their healthcare ( accuse the government of killing its own citizens then want your health to be dictated by the government….irony?)

More transfer of power from the individual to the government

Its insane.

And if the Government is capable of producing such an elaborate conspiracy as 9/11 – which produced what? Made us the hatred of the world over…Cost us billions of dollars, we didnt gain oil, or any other positive element out of- if they can do THAT, then this….THIS…. shootings at a school which only and ALWAYS result in more gun purchases, is all they can do to take away our gun rights?

Really?

Make no mistake, Obama admitted to poilitisizing this event and his goal is to take away our gun rights. But thatcdoesnt mean the government created the event; they merely capitalized on it. ” never waste a crises”.

Resident cynic.

[RusskyParticipant 13503]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

I also find it quite ironic that virtually all of these 9/11 “truthers” and conspiracy advocates are complete and utter LIBERALS.

You must be watching too much of Turks or something. I don’t know of any liberal truthers.
They’re mostly all libertarians, but far from modern liberals.

proud carrier of the 'why?' chromosome

[Author]

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