Christian/Religious MGTOW is it possible?!

[WandersmannParticipant 27]

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You cannot logically tell me to prove god doesn’t exist, you have to prove to me that he does.

Why would the burden of proof only apply to positive claims (e.g. God exists) and not negative ones (e.g. God doesn’t exist)? I think the answer regarding God’s existence is we don’t know (this also applies to fairies, aliens etc and is not a rational argument for belief in God).

 

@gonegalt

The beer volcano is in the Great Pasta Bowl (Pastafarian heaven) of course.

[GoneGaltParticipant 361]

@wandersmann: Outstanding question! “Why would the burden of proof only apply to positive claims (e.g. God exists) and not negative ones (e.g. God doesn’t exist)?”

This is actually simple to answer – it all depends on the nature of what your claim requires the hearer of that claim to believe and further, what the person hearing the claim is expected to do as a result of accepting that claim.

Let’s say you tell me a pound of bacon now costs $20 a pound when the day before it cost $5 – naturally I will think you’re full of s~~~ but since I can easily verify your claim by factual means it doesn’t matter if you’re telling the truth or not. But when you make a claim that is logically unverifiable and in addition requires me to make a fundamental alteration in my view of reality and then commit myself to that belief without any verifiable proof whatsoever, that is a major difference in meaning with respect to my life and the way I choose to live it. I don’t need to prove Beyonce isn’t an alien living on the moon and visiting us just for her concerts, even if her ass is out this world – if you believe that, it’s up to you to prove it.

As James Randi has famously said, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/James_Randi

[Krab_AssParticipant 267]

For those who believe in God – good for you.   For those who don’t –  good for you.  As for me – I have relied on the good book and the creator / Jesus for strength.  I grew up with parents that had no use for religion.  To their defense – they had religious folks ‘who know better’ tell them what they should do as parents.  I found my own way without anyone having to perform the Spanish Inquisition.

Religion (to me) is a lot like college – it isn’t for everyone.  If someone wishes to discuss it with me, I will, but I am quiet about my faith.  Frankly, I get tired of well-intentioned bible thumpers trying to tell me they know best and I need their help.

I am also a man of science, and I believe that man tries to explain Gods work through physics, math and science.  I feel that science / religion can compliment each other.

Back to the original concern / question:  Can MGTOWers be religious?    YES.  I am one.

Peace

 

"I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do! That is character!"
~ Theodore Roosevelt

[GoneGaltParticipant 361]

@unencumbered: I agree with you. If you’ve read through this entire topic you’ll see though I’m in the agnostic class I cannot prove the non-existence of a supreme being so I do not dismiss the experiences of those who do, and I also supported the concept that there is no logical dissonance between a MGTOW and being religious. Thank GOoDness someone on the other side agrees with me.

[Anonymous 42]

@unencumbered I hear you about the Bible Thumpers, Who are they to shine their light in your face, like some sort of FLOOD LIGHT. I question everything in detail. I shine my light into the darkness for discovery, NOT in another mans face. I have NEVER pushed my opinions on ANYBODY about ANYTHING, It seems every answer comes with more questions.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

A personal God clearly is “limited” in that it has specific attributes (e.g. mercifulness) and thus not others (e.g. mercilessness). If you want to describe all things then I’d call that “ultimate reality” or “the absolute” rather than “God” since that term is ambiguous.

True, a personal only god is limited.  However He would be limited if only impersonal also.  As to the ambiguity to the definition of “God” there is also clarity in the fact that we are having a conversation about “God”.  So ambiguous in one aspect yes, however there are certainties.

Actually you can prove a negative (e.g. no water in a specific bucket).

No, you are just pointing at a bucket.

A specific concept of God could be disproved if for example it included that God created the earth 6000 years ago

Radiological dating actually raises more questions in answers as many of the variables required to make the measurements are pulled out of thin air.

Science has its limits.

 

[Krab_AssParticipant 267]

@MG-Tower – I see it this way:  Do I wish for others to push their views on me?  Uh… HELL no!  So – in turn, I see no logical reason for me to proselytize to the world about my beliefs.    Besides – who made me king????

I am a simple man who wants to live a simple life.

Peace.

"I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do! That is character!"
~ Theodore Roosevelt

[Anonymous 42]

@uncumbered, I hear you, keep it simple! Besides who in their right mind wouldn’t question a leader, any leader? Aaaahhaaa the followers of the infamous Jim Jones! Yehaaa something was amiss in Jones Town Gianna???? They sent a Senator to investigate!!!Every one of those f~~~s deserved to die! Manginas following Alfa-Mangina! How can somebody fall for that s~~~ and not know! And that other group killing themselves to be picked up by aliens? Life is as real as it gets, trade it for death? Not Me! That’s gods job!

[Krab_AssParticipant 267]

Not to mention the multitudes under Hitler’s spell.   Some actually thought HE was the messiah!!

I love the saying – ‘Question authority’.  Thank God for the good ‘ol US of A where we can question things and not get beheaded, shot, stabbed or any other miserable thing.   Now – I must add, the occasional crack-pot will surely f~~~ that freedom up – but…. by and large – the US is a pretty cool place to be.

Oh, speaking of the US  – THANK YOU TO ALL YOU VETERANS WHO SERVED OR ARE SERVING STILL!!

(I go off on the occasional tangent….)

 

"I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do! That is character!"
~ Theodore Roosevelt

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

This subject is always a heated one,to believe in a creator or not, for me is easy. I believe everyone’s true beliefs are their own secret and I wont tell you everything I believe. but i will claim a belief if its advantageous to me.This may sound dishonest but let me explain: I have been doing my own studies into the laws in the US. If anyone reads my introduction they will know why. it was a child support case in which I represented myself and had the charge dismissed. The supreme law of the land is the constitution in the US. Its an iron clad document in writing enforceable in a court of law pursuant to the statute of frauds and judges in every state are bound there-by.Now these courts are crooked as hell and this is why it does not bother me one bit to lie about my beliefs in them.The bible is also admissible and quotable in court because it represents gods law or natural law they call it. The declaration of independence is also admissible as evidence. Civics is not a class in high school anymore but its the study of your rights all kinds,civil,natural,human and so forth.The courts don’t want you to know your rights because once you claim them in a court the court now has a duty to protect them. In the declaration it is written:  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. The important words are unalienable:That which inalienable cannot be bought, sold, or transferred. Why because what god gives you no man (not even a judge) can take away. CONSENT: any civil equitable cause of action or contract needs your consent. You may not believe in a creator but admitting so in court would be waiving all god given natural rights. They would have your consent to ignore all your god given natural rights.

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Anonymous 42]

F~~~ that! I do not consent! Not f~~~ing EVER! I choose to take measures necessary for MY safety, prosperity, and happiness.

Governments are instituted amongst men, deriving their JUST POWERS from the consent of the governed—— that whenever these great objectives are not achieved, it is the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to ALTER, or to ABOLISH the same if necessary, and to take measures necessary for their safety, prosperity, and happiness………

I live in a legal BLACK HOLE, a place molested by law, order, and equity: Destroyed by FINAL DECREE on January 10th 1974. Permanently lost in the sands of corruption on July 18th, 1997, as a lawful CEASE AND DESIST ORDER was displayed on the public message board, closing my neighborhood for all purposes, public and private, until such time as (my neighbor hood) comply with the provisions of M.G.L. Chapter 140, sec, 32A.”necessity of a license, motel defined””No Person Shall conduct, control, manage or operate directly or indirectly”… The LAW can go f~~~ it’s self  as far as my concern. and the constitution has become judicial s~~~ paper! F~~~ the judge! F~~~ the law! I have no lawful and legitimate form of government! And there are many many more destroyed by government……….https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section32A

 

How many of you men have been tyrannized by the courts, plundered by the lawyers, and f~~~ed by the judge! need I say more…… Cheers

[mgtowcuriousSpectator 11]

I was not raised in a religious environment, I’ve never had a religious friend, I’ve met religious people obviously but it was a once of chat, I keep to myself a lot, so that probably has a lot to do with it 🙂

I’m as atheist as it gets but I love the bible, It’s not a religious thing i’m just wired wrong, it just so happens the positive stuff in the bible matches up with my ”rules” but their stuff is pushed to extreme’s, and that’s why a lot of people s~~~ on it, and it frustrates me, just because god doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can’t live an honourable life, just because the bible preaches too much doesn’t mean you can’t take the positive out of it and apply it too you’re life

It’s the same thing with mgtow, I’m a hardcore mgtow but it’s not like I read about it online and decided to live that way it just so happens their views match up with mine,

My hardwiring malfunction is WHY i’m mgtow, I honestly believe in having limited sex partners, trying to have meaningful relationships, trying to do the right thing by people, all that stuff,

as far as i’m concerned their both the same thing ! I don’t see how you could have one without the other ? If I wasn’t hardwired wrong I would be having sex with a lot of women and doing all that stuff and I wouldn’t care about the consequences, I imagine it’s the same way for a dedicated religious person, I could be wrong though, but If that person didn’t have religion whats stopping him from taking advantage of life in 2014 ? nothing ! and that’s why truly being religious is a blessing and a curse !

<cite>@wandersmann said:</cite>
We live in a vast and extremely complicated universe that we barely understand, are afraid of death and long for a sense of purpose, belonging and security. Faith isn’t rational but based on emotion, it helps people cope with reality.

Much like the worship of women Christianity is a way for men to calm their existential anxiety and take the weight of personal responsibility off their shoulders by submitting to an external authority, which isn’t extactly “a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else”.

This is what I was getting at, you articulated it well 🙂

[GoneGaltParticipant 361]

@mgtowcurious: While I agree that many of the ‘rules’ in the classical Bible are good, my problem is that I needed more understanding of why they are good when I was a lot younger, because as is attributed to Socrates “the unexamined life is not worth living”. Since I do not accept the existence of any supreme being I was tasked with attempting to understand how one arrives at the concept of good and evil, and after reading extensively finally found Ayn Rand’s Objectivism philosophy, which independently of any religion derives their meaning in a rational method. While I cannot ‘prove’ she’s right it is the one that has made the most sense to me, by far, is logically consistent and does not require an ethical system passed down by the historical writings of religious adherents. MGTOW is similar in that it attempts to reveal the truth about women and does not tolerate irrational arguments not backed by facts – I can see this by having watched hundreds of videos in which the authors constantly provide references to back up their claims and still other videos that question various MGTOW concepts, all in an attempt to strive to be as close to reality as they can. They do this because taking the red pill and altering’s one’s path in life is similar to that of accepting any religion which also does the same (accepting both as I’ve said before is not incompatible) – it is life changing. So for me I had this insatiable drive to discover how and why to live my life when I was a teenager and it took me around 5 years to fully grasp what was valid for me and I am happy in my choice. Good luck!

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

AMEN  bro, as i said in my intro even though i won I still lost!

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Ronin XParticipant 81]

@OldAtHeart, For your consideration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHfI0iuSV9I

[Ronin XParticipant 81]

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[John DoeParticipant 743]

 

I believe everyone’s true beliefs are their own secret and I wont tell you everything I believe.

Interesting thought.  +1

Unencumbered:

I love the saying – ‘Question authority’. 

I would feel encumbered by an authority if I listened to you.

 

GoneGalt:

“the unexamined life is not worth living”.

Prove it.  Because as far as I see it, animals and people both are alive.

MGTOWCurious

I’m as atheist as it gets but I love the bible, It’s not a religious thing i’m just wired wrong, it just so happens the positive stuff in the bible matches up with my ”rules” but their stuff is pushed to extreme’s, and that’s why a lot of people s~~~ on it, and it frustrates me, just because god doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can’t live an honourable life, just because the bible preaches too much doesn’t mean you can’t take the positive out of it and apply it too you’re life

Interesting thought.  I don’t like bible thumpers because I believe they do more harm to themselves than good.  At the same time I have respect for them because if they really believe what they are doing then they, in their own way, want the best for us.

That being said, I do not like when Athiests or Agnostics “bash” the Bible simply because they are not following their own logic.  According to them there is no God/gods/diety(s) which exist and/or can be known so that leaves them with the option that the Bible was created only by man.  If, according to them, it was only created by man, they are bashing a piece of literature which had some of the greatest effect on humanity in recordable history.  No other idea, story, piece of literature, or piece of art has done this.  This only proves, to some extent, that many (not all) of the Athiests/Agnostics not only despise the idea of a God (or one that can be known) but also humanity itself.  It is pure hypocrisy.

 

[John DoeParticipant 743]

You’re misunderstanding what ‘cannot prove a negative’ actually means. Fully stated, the real meaning of it is “you cannot prove a <span style=”font-family: Thread-000020e8-Id-00000451;”>generic </span>negative”, meaning you cannot prove that a specific condition does not exist anywhere in the <span style=”font-family: Thread-000020e8-Id-00000451;”>universe</span>. In your example you certainly could prove that there wasn’t any water in a specific bucket but it would be impossible for you to prove that no bucket<span style=”font-family: Thread-000020e8-Id-00000451;”> in the universe</span> holds water (the ‘generic condition’, or that of any bucket not holding water). Your observation of a specific condition does not inform us as to the condition of every other bucket in the universe.

Gonegalt:  You cannot prove a negative.  +(proof)= +(proof)                           +=-(negative) does not happen.

another example:          1=1                                 not                1=0

You are also misunderstanding that “generic” determines the meaning of “negative”.  As if “negativity” itself can be defined by whether or not it is general.  A negative is a negative whether it is “generic” or not.  If anything “negative” should actually translate to “deficiency in proof” rather than be viewed as a concept in and of itself.  If we are to be more accurate.  With that being said there is either proof or no proof.  You cannot prove a deficiency in proof.

Going back to the “water in a bucket” example.  You cannot prove that there is no water.  You can only prove that their is a bucket.

There is no water in the bucket.

“No” cancels out what it is prior to, which is “water”.  What this statement is saying really is: There is the bucket.

It would be like saying “1+0=1” when in reality you can say “1=1” or just “1”.

“

[GoneGaltParticipant 361]

While logically you can prove a specific negative, you cannot prove a generic negative. Seems to me to be a semantic argument. More simply put, prove to me that an invisible and undetectable supreme being, Flying Spaghetti Monster or the like does not exist somewhere in the universe. I would agree that in mathematics you can prove generic negatives, I’ll concede that but you’re dealing with a logic-based system where proofs are self-evident, at least to the people who are capable of understanding them within the rules of mathematics. I see nothing logical about an invisible and undetectable supreme being, whose knowledge some people have purportedly directly experienced while the vast majority of people have simply accepted because that’s what they grew up learning about from their parents and/or religious leaders like priests who themselves accepted the words of people long dead who supposedly recorded the words of either the supreme being itself or its prophets. By definition, if one cannot directly see nor detect through any means the existence of a supreme being then logic doesn’t help you prove it doesn’t exist. Perhaps it exists in a yet-undetected ‘fifth’ dimension and only revealed to a select few throughout human history for motives unknowable.

So while I’m not in complete disagreement about the subject, until someone is able to prove that anything like I mentioned does exist in a manner graspable by the average person who is expected to believe it then I’ll continue to go merrily on my way through life thinking as I do now and letting others believe what they wish as long as they don’t bother me nor attempt to control my behavior through the prism of their set of moral beliefs, religious or no. I have never attempted to convince anyone to turn away from spirituality of any sort and never will – life is tough enough without someone attacking your personal beliefs without they themselves being unable to prove the basic for theirs.

[Ronin XParticipant 81]

A Christian MGHOW may overtly sound like both an oxymoron and a paradox. A MGHOW is a man going his own way but a Christian by definition is a man going God’s/Jesus’ way. It would be very challenging to combine the two concepts. Churches as well are enslaved by their own biblical interpretations, agendas and centuries old traditions. A Christian MGHOW would have to be a critical thinker  and a student of biblical exposition to follow Christ his own way.

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