Home › Forums › Relations~~~s › What about BDSM submissives?
This topic contains 26 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by 
peterfa 4 years, 10 months ago.
- AuthorPosts
Anonymous2I am a practitioner of BDSM. While I don’t live “the lifestyle” fulltime I simply have a healthy interest in BDSM. I say healthy because I am a believer of conventional psychology which states it can be physically and mentally healthy when practiced in safe, sane and consentual ways. The topic I am interested in is how MGTOW views women who are naturally inclined to be submissive towards men, and vice versa.
With MGTOW, I define my own masculinity. Part of that is sexual dominance. I also embrace the female definition of femininity, provided a women can communicate what she wants. This question is easily answered from the perspective of a submissive women. My inquiries among submissive women in the BDSM community lead me to believe that such a women views this submissive state as pleasant, because it clears her head of thought. Surprisingly, this is the same for male submissives and in part why submissives find so much stress relief in BDSM related activities in a safe and sane environment. Along with a lot of other information I’m inclined to believe sexual dominance or submission is not a gender-defined trait, but an inherent trait of an individual regardless of gender.
Using that frame of reference, what does MGTOW make of sexual dominance or submission? It would be extremely shortsighted to view female submission as “the natural order of things” and male submission as something deviant or feminism-induced. Sure, some dominants (male or female) may have feminist or MRA / PUA agendas, just as well as some subs might fake interest into (soft) BDSM to progress on the carrousel. But those people are really the minority, and as a whole I’d say the online BDSM community is pretty informed on gender based social movements and takes very varied stances on gender issues. MGTOW is merely critical on traditional relationships while BDSM relationships are far from orthodox.
I’d dare to say people in tune with their own gender identity and sexual kinks or fetishes are more confident to step outside of social expectations at large. Being free to generalize, couples having a BDSM lifestyle are happier then vanilla couples. As a dominant with a fetish for flogging young and smooth asscheeks, I can relate to that statement.
So, in short:
- Sexual dominance is not an exclusively male or female trait
- People having crazy sex outside of traditional relationships are happier
While I refuse to go PUA with 50 Shades of Grey nonsense, BDSM just strikes me as a relevant dynamic in more modern relationships. It’s like a f~~~ton of people “got it” and started having meaningfull relationships off the grid. There’s no official registration/legislation and relationships vary from one night stands to lifetime commitments.
There must be MGTOW that are into BDSM, dominant or submissive. Perhaps nobody feels inclined to out himself publicly here, but any view from a practitioner that went MGTOW is greatly appreciated.
If whips, chains, and handcuffs is your bag, then as long as everyone involved consents, I don’t see any conflict with MGTOW.
My only worry when it comes to something like this is a woman’s tendency to change her mind last-minute, and blow everything out of proportion (“he abused me!”), despite consenting in the beginning.
I don’t think there is anything healthy about fake displays of dominance. I say fake because these things can only be practiced in a culturally acceptable manner when there are rules, boundaries and a safe word.
The holder of the safe word is always dominant. Everything else is self delusion and silly clothes.
And since someone mentioned 50 Shades of Grey, the ideal ending for that story should be that the bimbo takes the rich guy to court for sexual harassment, assault, battery and rape and takes him for two billion dollars. Then we all find out who was really in control from the beginning.
Anonymous2The holder of the safe word is always dominant.
That implies there is always a holder of a safeword, but that’s a SSC (Safe, Sane and Consentual) directive while many people play using RACK (Risk Aware Consentual Kink) dynamics that may or may not incorporate a safeword or completely predefined boundaries. Guess it’s picking the lesser evil here: increased risk of a rape accusation (RACK) or diminished “real” expression of sexual dominance (SSC).
Then we all find out who was really in control from the beginning.
Especially within RACK dynamics! However, consent being given, no matter in what form, is not legally binding in most countries. With the propagation of 50 Shades bulls~~~ lots of cupcakes suddenly decide they are submissives hoping to attract a male dominant via lizard brain manipulation tactics.
I mentioned in another thread that I practice bondage (shibari). I was introduced to it by a former girlfriend (she was a Japanese submissive) more than 20 years ago and I had been “on and off” the lifestyle since then. Six years ago I became involved with the sex toy industry as a reviewer and thanks to the Web and the recent “interest” on BDSM practices I had been learning additional techniques.
Personally, I don’t see any issue with being a MGHOW and practicing any role in BDSM – either as a dom or a sub. After all, MGTOW central idea is for men to discover and experience their own personal way. As you mentioned, submission is gender neutral. If being a dominant is your way, it is what it is. Same if you are a submissive.
As a practitioner, my concern is the newbies inspired by the 50 Shades of BS. There are a multitude of BDSM relationships, and not all include sexual intercourse or rough behavior – but Hollywood and porn tell us the opposite. Many people will get hurt and others will go to jail because the scenes will go out of control when newbies try to recreate the scenes from the book / movie without common sense or communication.
Since I never practiced as part of a community (I lived in conservative Latin America until recently), I am unaware of the different acronyms and philosophies used in the US, but one thing I always told my submissive was that she needed to tell me her limit. The safe word I established was basically to let me know she was reaching her limits and that it was time for me to release the ropes a little bit or even end the session. Sometimes I had to end the session on my own because the sub was too eager to please. I don’t deal with physical punishment besides spanking, so I only have to worry about breathing and possible nerve pressure points.
The holder of the safe word is always dominant.
That implies there is always a holder of a safeword, but that’s a SSC (Safe, Sane and Consentual) directive while many people play using RACK (Risk Aware Consentual Kink) dynamics that may or may not incorporate a safeword or completely predefined boundaries. Guess it’s picking the lesser evil here: increased risk of a rape accusation (RACK) or diminished “real” expression of sexual dominance (SSC).
Then we all find out who was really in control from the beginning.
Especially within RACK dynamics! However, consent being given, no matter in what form, is not legally binding in most countries. With the propagation of 50 Shades bulls~~~ lots of cupcakes suddenly decide they are submissives hoping to attract a male dominant via lizard brain manipulation tactics.
All of that you just said… that’s even worse than a safe word. You’ve acronymed the power, danger, fear and excitement right out of it. When I was a kid we used to ride our bikes down gravel hills, play in mud and swim in drainage ditches. Now kids have “play dates” and wear anti-bacterial helmets and that, by comparison, sounds like more excitement than what you just said. Anyone who thinks that is “BDSM” is totally delusional. Sorry.
Real bondage and domination today would be considered a crime. Whatever you people are doing, including the japanese rope bondage, is just theatrics. To call this stuff bondage and domination would be the same as suggesting that visiting a prison where you know you can simply leave at any time is the psychological and emotional equivalent of serving a life sentence.
But hey, if fooling yourself gets you off, more power!
Anonymous2Thanks for your views.
I understand Doc isn’t a practitioner so does not get any excitement from BDSM. That’s fine, I won’t be offended by a vanilla viewpoint regarding BDSM as delusional. In fact “just theatrics” is a description I am completely comfortable with. I agree that within BDSM, a “total power exchange” is complete rubbish and BDSM does not include any exchange of real power. All power is given through consent, or we are indeed talking about a crime.
The point about “play dates” as kids is a spot on comparison of SSC and RACK. But as a kid, didn’t you make up names for the games you played?
Not all of those games were as safe and parental-approved, there might not have been supervision, and when I dig hard hard enough I’m sure I can even find some mild sexual innuendo’s in early pre-teen years. I can tell you that for a practitioner there is excitement in such games still, and I still regard them as games still. Just to be sure you understand the “equivalent of a lifetime sentence” isn’t something I would aspire to recreate as an experience at all. Just to be concise on this point.
About safewords: I only feel these are needed with roleplay, to differenciate between acting the play and true communication. Again, you can view this as theatrics indeed, and imagine the director yelling “cut!”.
Casquetero, The acronyms you are not familiar with are helpfull when communicating with people not invested in your personal kink. I’m mainly involved with an online community where acronyms help to indicate a number of common kinks and practices. They are far from required to play games. I’d say your description of your dom-sub relationship sounds pretty sane.
As a practitioner, my concern is the newbies inspired by the 50 Shades of BS. There are a multitude of BDSM relationships, and not all include sexual intercourse or rough behavior – but Hollywood and porn tell us the opposite. Many people will get hurt and others will go to jail because the scenes will go out of control when newbies try to recreate the scenes from the book / movie without common sense or communication.
Exactly. Communication. This is where I feel BDSM relationships differ from traditional ones because communication is not just important, it is absolutely required to keep sessions enjoyable. That goes for all genders, top, bottom, straight, gay, it doesn’t matter. But once a female is involved, she must be honest and upfront about what she wants, clearly communicate it in a concise, non-emotional way. I feel this is a mechanic that mat be helpfull in dealing with the opposite gender. Part of my enjoyment is that a sub would regularly check in on her own accord, and we both get to be upfront about our needs and desires. Do you think practitioners are more in tune with those base desires, their nature, and can therefore better differenciate between those and whatever society tells them they should want?
Anonymous42MGTOW views women who are naturally inclined to be submissive towards men, and vice versa.
1st off, I never needed or used “toys”, it’s in my NATURE to be dominant over women, especially during sex, I couldn’t imagine it any other way, We’re stronger, they’re weaker, what other way would it go? Seriously how does a Man be dominated if he’s the stronger of the two? Ahhhh weak mind, weak spirit, MANGINA! Strong spirit, weak mind, FEMINIST!
Hi there!
You know, for several years in an executive position I feel that I need a discharging. BDSM helps me with that.
Met on site (Kovla) with one woman, who is also in a theme of BDSM. So several times a month we meet and realize our fantasies.
I’m almost 50 years old, and in the time that I’ve interacted with women, the most common request I’ve gotten from them in the bedroom was some variation on force, restraint, non-consensual, domination…etc. Some variation on this was the stated preference of about half of them. When I heard that 50 shades of gray had sold 50 million copies, I started to think that of about 240 million people in the country, half are women. But I’ll call it 100 million to account for disqualifying females too young to read a book like this, too old or senile to be interested etc. So half of all the women I’ve known have had this sort of fantasy, and apparently, about half the 100 million women in the country have read this book. So my sample of the female population seems in line with the total population.
@ Inxentas – When I was younger, more naive and much more driven by hormones, I would give a woman just about anything she asked for in order to continue having sex with her. I agreed to some of these requests. But I stopped when I wised up. I have not agreed to this request in a very long time, and here is why: You typed the following in your post:
But once a female is involved, she must be honest and upfront about what she wants, clearly communicate it in a concise, non-emotional way.
Inxentas, my young friend, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but let me explain what happens when you stumble onto a woman who is not as you describe. First, this will not be printed on her forehead. You’ll have to discover it (when you tie her up and spank her ass with belt, whip, whatever and she seems to like it). Maybe she’ll twitch and squirm and never use a safe word and you’ll think you’re a successful dom and be proud of yourself. Then, perhaps when it’s over her preference will change…
She calls police and on their arrival, tells them you raped or otherwise sexually abused her and shows them a mark (any mark will do). You will be arrested and taken to jail. If you can get out in time to make it back to work, perhaps you can keep your job, at least for a while. A criminal charge will be filed against you indicating felony sexual assault. Probably rape or attempted rape (both first degree felonies). You’ll eventually face this charge in public court being defended by a criminal defense attorney who will have already done a background search on you to get an idea of the amount of what were formerly known as ‘your assets’. Those assets you thought were yours will have been converted to a ‘retainer’ which is just another name for a scholarship fund for his kids… But for the time being, you’ll probably just be preoccupied with making bail…and sticking to the provisions of that restraining order they gave you on the way out of jail with the bondsman…
Before you ever appear in criminal court to face these charges, your passport and any guns you had will probably be confiscated. Think of the passport confiscation like a new version of the ropes… to hold you in place for things to come afterward.
Eventually though, you will find yourself in criminal court. By this time, your name, charge and court date are part of public record. If the media can create a story from it that will sell newspapers or get ratings, you can be certain that is exactly what will happen. Your job is probably long gone by that point (or soon will be), and without it, your house will follow shortly. Good luck passing a background check for another job, mortgage, loan, etc
To borrow a line from a favorite mgtow movie, you’re about to be f~~~ed by a train. Because, while you may have thought you understood that woman’s preferences, those preferences have now changed, and she’s decided she’d prefer watch you twitch and squirm for a while…just not in exactly the same way. You don’t have the presumption of innocence. You have no proof of anything, but the prosecutor has pictures of her taken by police, with marks on her that you put there. If you are lucky, you’ll be offered a plea bargain for 2nd or 3rd degree felony, probation, community service, forced physiological counseling and registration as a sex offender which will follow you on any background check for the rest of your life. If you’re not lucky, you’ll get convicted and serve time in a state prison on a rape charge… where you are likely to experience a whole different variation on those dom-sub games that you once played…
So tell us all here, when you’re standing in state criminal court in front of the (female?) judge, across from the teary eyed female victim you ‘raped and abused’…with a jury that includes several bitter, feminist, post wall women… what is YOUR safe word that you are going to use that is going to stop this process and let you just walk away?
I’ve belabored the point here to be sure I make the point: by agreeing to play these games with a woman, you have handed her every single ingredient she requires to f~~~ your life like a train…while trusting her to just choose not to do it. You may as well have married her for the risk you are taking. And for taking this risk with these gargantuan stakes, you’ve gotten in return exactly what???
And if you think I’m just being paranoid and this is unrealistic, Google “Tawanna Brawley”, “Duke Lacrosse Team”, “Rolling Stone fraternity rape” and see if you learn anything about the way a woman’s ‘preferences’ can change…
Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you
Exactly. Well put, BP.
When a man ties up and spanks a female and sticks some toys in her butt, he’s just playing at bondage and domination. Real bondage and domination is when that female turns around and, with the help of her proxy man forces, has you arrested, charged with rape, stripped of your assets and sent to prison where you get gang f~~~ed in the ass by a bunch of angry, horny and very dominant convicts.
Boy, won’t that be titilating fun! I can’t wait to get your lessons about how my ideals are “vanilla” when you’ve got your ass stuffed full of chocolate cream. You and I can have a nice long chat through a pane of wired glass about the value of communication.
@doc – BDSM is much more than what you see in commercial movies / porn. Sometimes is not about sex, but about the need to be in control (dom) or the need of structure and order (sub). There are people in 24/7 dominant / submissive relationships where the dom only orders the sub to wear a specific piece of clothing or to do something when they are at home. It could be as simple as having the sub making you a sandwich and serve you a cold one as soon as you get home after work. (That sounds cool, ha?). Again, it does not have to be about sex.
About the theatrics, yes, it has some of that. But it is not like going to a prison where you know you will get out. That mentality is for the people who “play” with BDSM. The people who live their kink, like to be tied because it fulfills a mental need – a need provided by the rigger (the one who ties). Some love the smell of the ropes (specially when using hemp), or they are comforted by the pressure of the rope on their body. Again, it does not have to include sex.
@brainpilot – You are not paranoid, but the women you describe are exactly the ones I am worried about – the ones who want to fulfill a fantasy inspired in something they read, heard, or watched. Those are the dangerous ones because they have no idea on what they are getting into and recoil in fear when the fantasy gets too real. The woman who is in the BDSM lifestyle? She is getting her needs fulfilled and with good communication between the participants, risks are normally low. Of course, I am talking about the ones who read the 50 Shades of Bull and considered it a crappy comedy right away…
Do you think practitioners are more in tune with those base desires, their nature, and can therefore better differenciate between those and whatever society tells them they should want?
I believe that in general, the better you know and understand yourself, the less you care about social opinions. Practitioners of anything society considers extreme (BDSM, para sailing, free-base jumping, parkour) are usually aware of what society wants them to do, but simply prefer to follow their own individual desires. That applies to everything – from clothing, to looks, to hobbies, and of course sexuality.
That’s a good comparison for me Cas,
When I was younger, I raced motorcycles cross country, jumped from airplanes, went scuba diving in australia (at night) and a bunch of other things that were considered unacceptably high risk by most people. I’ll be the first to admit, I loved the thrill that came from those things, and I tolerated the risk in order to get it. But for the most part, the risks could be estimated based on physics, statistics etc. Ironically, as a younger man, I had more life ahead of me but felt that I had less to lose since I owned fewer things. Perhaps its the wisdom that comes with age that at some point, I realize I’d give back all the things I own now in exchange for having back all those years ahead of me again.Of course I wouldn’t make that trade to have those years back in order to do anything at all different with them 🙂 Given the chance to live those thrills twice, I’d probably take those same risks again in order to get them.
But the risks I took with women were far bigger than I realized at the time. I didn’t take those risks because I’d estimated them accurately and decided that the thrill was worth it. I was vastly underestimating the risk at the time. I took those risks because I was ignorant of how destructive a woman could be with the weapons I was providing her. I was (at the time) ignorant how little they require in the way of provocation to start that avalanche of destruction.
In retrospect, given the chance to do the last 30 years over again, I would engage in all the same extreme sports for all the same thrills they provided, but I would not indulge the requests of the extreme women that I met along the way. Doing it again, I’d steer for the other half of the women who asked for something else…and settle for whatever thrill resulted.
Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you
Anonymous2Thanks again for your insights.
I do wish to point out that I am not a resident of the USA and thus, not subject to it’s laws while engaging in BDSM activities. I am indeed aware of a couple of rape accusation cases in the USA related to BDSM and I’d be the last person to say nothing of the sort ever happens, but there is no conclusive evidence that suggests engaging in BDSM behaviour within a relationship puts a person at a higher risk of a rape accusation within any European legal system. I also do not see the link between rape accusations on campus and BDSM, but I will read up on those three cases regardless.
As Brainpilot points out, whether a woman can consicely communicate her desires isn’t printed on her forehead, and as Cas points out, BDSM doesn’t neccesarily imply physical domination or sexual activity per se (it can be relaxing, meditative as well).
I’ve been with a vanilla, but very vindictive woman in my early twenties and no way in hell would I ever engage in any physical or mental play with a person like that. I fully agree that this is dangerous no matter what legal system has power over you. Estimating these risks with women can be a f~~~ing maze, and 50 Shades bulls~~~ isn’t helping either.
Quite paradoxal. I too identify as dominant and relate sexual dominance with masculinity. I do not “get” submissive men either, but I also do not believe that they are overly feminized by (c)overt female tactics. That being said, Cas points out the need for structure. I am going to think on that, because there is a relationship with males in high, stressfull professions and sexual submission, while I’d say the female lizard brain is lacking in structure by nature.
Pretty much everybody is subject to the laws of some jurisdiction and most of them (the ones with reliable internet service, anyway) do not take kindly to false imprisonment and torture (which is what BDSM sounds like when discussed in court). So it doesn’t matter if you’re in the US or wherever… you’re still exposing yourself to charges and it’s all still a silly charade.
I know the type… you connect yourself with something “edgy” and “out there” so that you can feel special and then you talk about it in public (operational security is rule 1 for any socially questionable actions) so that squares like me will challenge you and give you an opportunity to wax all eloquent about it so that you can convince yourself that you really are special.
Okay, fine. You’re special. Have a cookie.
And as a fellow man, I hope you never catch a charge for your silly fetish, but if you do, I won’t feel sorry for you.
Vampires, witchcraft, zombies, rough play sex… all going main stream. Pretty soon you’ll have to pretend to be a straight-edge Christian into beanie babies to shock anyone, anymore! What will the “look-at-me” crowd do then?
Anonymous2Doc, you grossly overestimate the legal risks associated with my activities within the laws and regulations of my country. They are an acceptable risk (compared to marrying a female) to me and many others, whether you agree with that or not. I’m not interested in challenging you or other squares, nor do I have anything to flaunt. A university in my country published research that indicates practitioners of BDSM were psychologically healthier then the vanilla control group and had more stable relationships. I want to understand why from both male and female pespectives as I feel it might help improve dealing with women in general. I have no ulterior motives here.
My former lover, a bisexual female lawyer, gived me a suggestion about BDSM, the very same suggestion another female lawyers is giving in that article
http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/12/men-friendly-tip-from-a-lawyer-never-engage-in-bdsm/
“MEN, A FRIENDLY SUGGESTION: NEVER ENGAGE A WOMAN IN BDSM”
Anonymous42The only BDSM I ever engaged in was holding their feet next to their heads while plowing it home. Let a girl hold me down? Never did that, never would!
My former lover, a bisexual female lawyer, gived me a suggestion about BDSM, the very same suggestion another female lawyers is giving in that article http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/12/men-friendly-tip-from-a-lawyer-never-engage-in-bdsm
Really good article.
It basically confirms what I mentioned – never get into BDSM sexual behavior with an amateur. Doing real bondage or sadomasochism acts with someone who is just “curious” about it, spells all kind of problems. Again, the issue are the herds of women getting into BDSM inspired in the novel / movie without knowing what the REAL practice involves. Those women are the danger… and if you are a guy who is also an amateur (like the idiot from Chicago), then multiply the dangers by 500 times!
There are way too many misconceptions about BDSM (thanks Hollyweird!) – and most of it is totally laughable. Personally, I never got a problem with any women I practiced bondage. You have to pick them carefully, train them, and make them trust YOU (still, you must be on the defensive as always). Ironically, the best description I had found of the differences between real vs fantasy BDSM practices had been in a Cracked post…
7 Realities of BDSM 50 Shades Leaves Out…
A discussion of the study mentioned by @Ixentas (Google the name of the researcher for access to the actual study)
@MG-TOWer: Had you seen the “massage milking” or “milking table” videos on the porn tubes? That is a modified type of BDSM – where the guy is passive although not necessarily restrained. Highly recommended (when done gently)…
- AuthorPosts
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
921526
921524
919244
916783
915526
915524
915354
915129
914037
909862
908811
908810
908500
908465
908464
908300
907963
907895
907477
902002
901301
901106
901105
901104
901024
901017
900393
900392
900391
900390
899038
898980
896844
896798
896797
895983
895850
895848
893740
893036
891671
891670
891336
891017
890865
889894
889741
889058
888157
887960
887768
886321
886306
885519
884948
883951
881340
881339
880491
878671
878351
877678
