The Enormous Megaliths Of Yangshan

[MACHOParticipant]

Evaporation shouldn’t a problem, easily solved by adding some non soluble solution that would be floating on the surface of the water creating a protective film against water evaporation. That film could be made up of some kind of oily solution which could later on facilitate the movement of such massive blocks.

Suggestius wrote:

But they had to keep hi-intense of work due to evaporation

You must own a better Crystal ball than I

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

Sidecar, I understood your point from the beginning. But to understand you absolutely clear I need you stick to the English dictionaries, not to your own vocabulary with your own definitions. That’s why I gave you the definition of “brute force “.

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

[MACHOParticipant]

Yes that was my exact thoughts, those gates! I can accept the water idea, but the gates would require some very brilliant ideas 💡 Nevertheless I loved the idea of using what they had plenty of nearby, water as a way to create a water elevator for the blocks. Too bad that we were not there to witness the process they used. Yes tons of liquid would be very difficult to contain without leaks.

sidecar wrote:

And even if they did manage to build a water gate strong enough, how are they going to open it against that pressure?

You must own a better Crystal ball than I

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

MACHO wrote:

Evaporation shouldn’t a problem, easily solved by adding some non soluble solution

That’s a good one. They could be familiar with this.

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

Suggestius wrote:

not to your own vocabulary with your own definitions. That’s why I gave you the definition of “brute force “.

But it was the definition of brute force. They didn’t really use any significant mechanical aids. Sure they had ropes and capstans, but those don’t actually give a real mechanical advantage. The lever force magnification is more than countered by the additional friction. Capstans are more for letting more men pull a rope in a smaller area than for letting them pull a greater weight, which is why they’re used on ships etc. where otherwise they would run out of deck to pull on.

But that’s beside the point. It was Russian men turning those capstans. Pushing them around by… brute force. They didn’t have any engines to do the work for them. They didn’t have secret ancient alien technology. I don’t think they even used horses. It was just Russian men doing all the work.

Also if I recall correctly, they did it in the middle of the Russian Winter. Because hauling a thousand and a half tons of rock in the gentle summer sunshine wasn’t hard core enough for them. The same Russian Winter that kicked Napoleon’s ass (also Hitler’s ass) and the Russians are hauling giant rocks in it just because they can.

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

MACHO wrote:

Too bad that we were not there to witness the process they used.

We don’t really need to have been there. We can see how the Egyptians worked it out for themselves in the pyramids before Giza at Saqqara, Meidum, and Dashur. We can also see how they started to f~~~ with the process after Giza resulting in ruined s~~~ty mounds today instead of pyramids.

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

sidecar wrote:

But it was the definition of brute force.

You didn’t give any definition of “brute force”. I gave you one! lol

sidecar wrote:

They didn’t really use any significant mechanical aids.

Did the definition measures a significance of the use of mechanical aids? No. I see you barely have an idea what mechanical aid is.
Transport platform is a mechanical aid along with capstans. They didn’t drag the stone using just the muscles. Ships are moreover a complicated mechanical transport system. So you completely misunderstand of what brute force is.

sidecar wrote:

Also if I recall correctly, they did it in the middle of the Russian Winter.

They did it on March 12, 1769.

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

[MACHOParticipant]

I personally love to witness events in the present time with my own eyes not through someone else paid to tell us what their education or research led them to believe actually took place thousand of years ago. We often see history being rewritten once new “Facts” are uncovered. History books are rewritten often this way. That’s what I meant by too bad we weren’t there to witness it firsthand! That’s why in my humble opinion the pyramids are so fascinating. There are so many theories out there.. that unless one possesses an actual time machine the pyramids will continue to be such marvels and mysterious monuments.

sidecar wrote:

We don’t really need to have been there. We can see how the Egyptians worked it out for themselves in the pyramids before Giza at Saqqara, Meidum, and Dashur

You must own a better Crystal ball than I

[VirgilParticipant 970]

MACHO wrote:

They didn’t explain how it got there indeed but water once transported up there does most of the heavy lifting through the natural laws of physics! What is more difficult having people / slaves carry up on their shoulders large jugs filled with water until they got the required amount (Those projects would take decades to be completed anyway, plenty of time to bring up the necessary amount of water) or carry up there the millions of gigantic blocks of stone required at height of hundreds of feet up in the air?

For raising water there is the Archimedes screw (water raising screw) that could accomish more than people with buckets could have. And the technology is fairly old. Though it dated back to before the greeks/Romans.

Only reason I mention the water screw is any group that can move blocks that size and cut stone that precisely could get more benefit out of it. They tend to lose water when raising it, but with accurate cuts and it would lessen that effect. They could have also used a water wheel or wind mill type structure to raise it. The technology would have probably been available. And it has been proven there were trenches dug out near the pyramids where stone was brought in on barges.

There was also a middle eastern engineer trying to think of when but used steam power for a lot of various applications. Spinning devices controlled movements stuff along those lines. Its been years since I heard about him. But a lot of that was lost during the crusades if not before.

Know some of this isn’t directly relevant but more so used to reference that some technologies were used well before the generally accepted dates.

Hope that someday I may lead others the path I have learned. As Virgil led Dante through Hell.

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

Suggestius wrote:

Transport platform is a mechanical aid

The platform was to keep it from sinking back into the swamp. It wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without brute force muscle power.

along with capstans.

The capstans were there to limit the space needed for the whole operation and also to capture the effort used so far so it didn’t slip back the moment the men let go. They wouldn’t have turned around without brute force muscle power.

You are trying to argue semantics in a language you have an incomplete grasp of, both in meaning and idiom, and I honestly can’t figure out why except merely to be argumentative.

Can’t you just accept that the Russians accomplished an awesome thing through sheer determination that would put any mythical “ancient alien technology” to shame without looking for nitpicking details?

Suggestius wrote:

They did it on March 12, 1769.

Was that when they started or when they finished? Either way, I’ve been to St. Petersburg in March. It’s f~~~ing cold.

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

They started moving the stone in March.
Okay. Let’s make it clear.
Brute force – a method of accomplishing something primarily by means of strength, without the use of mechanical aids or thought.
Mechanical aids reduce physical effort, making materials handling easier and safer.
Did the platform and capstans reduce the physical efforts of workers? Yes, they did. Then it can’t be brute force. The brute force is supposed the absence of mechanical aid.

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

MACHO wrote:

I personally love to witness events in the present time with my own eyes not through someone else paid to tell us what their education or research led them to believe actually took place thousand of years ago.

But that’s just it, you actually can go visit the pyramids and see how they were made with your own eyes, because a lot of them are incomplete. Others have been partially disassembled. It’s like one big “How To Build a Pyramid” museum all up and down the Nile.

If I had a time machine, I’d go back to see the Lighthouse of Alexandria or the Colossus of Rhodes or the Mausoleum or whatever the f~~~ the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were supposed to be (assuming they ever actually existed at all). Or see what was so special about the Temple of Artemis or the Statue of Zeus. Because of all the Seven wonders, the pyramids are the only ones we can see today.

MACHO wrote:

There are so many theories out there.

Hypotheses. Not theories. And hypotheses promulgated by people who can’t accept simple explanations.

The true mystery of the pyramids is how they organized the logistics of the whole country into the single work project of building them. The engineering is fairly simple and well understood: ramps, ropes, river mud, a f~~~load of volunteers, and a few generations experimenting to work out the details. It’s the economics and organization that allowed for all that which is mysterious.

Virgil wrote:

the Archimedes screw

…does not lessen the energy required to lift water. It merely keeps it from flowing back, It’s essentially just a one-man bucket brigade, but those buckets get heavy fast. Tall archimedes screws take a LOT of torque to turn.

Though it dated back to before the greeks/Romans.

But not that much before. They pyramids were built 4,500 years ago. Cleopatra is closer to us today than she was to the pyramids.

The technology would have probably been available.

Naw. It wasn’t. The pinnacle of their technology was impure copper chisels. And some rather sophisticated geometry. The Great Pyramid was built 500 years before the Stone Age officially ended. They’d only been working stone for a few generations. A hundred years earlier and everything was mud bricks.

And it has been proven there were trenches dug out near the pyramids where stone was brought in on barges.

Those would have been for the granite blocks from Aswan (which was an impressive feat) and the Tura casing stones from across the river. The bulk of the pyramids came from the quarries right next to them.

However there’s a huge difference between understanding how to cut canals for when the river is at flood stage and lifting 5.9 million tons of water 480 feet into the air. Anyone with any experience of irrigation can figure out how canals work. Lifting that much water and holding it back against hydrostatic pressure is a different matter entirely.

It’s easier to simply haul rocks.

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

Suggestius wrote:

Did the platform and capstans reduce the physical efforts of workers? Yes, they did.

No. They don’t. We’ve been over this.

The platform kept it from sinking back into the swamp, but meant that now the Russians had to haul the weight of the stone AND the weight of the platform. Hardly an energy saver. And again, capstans capture applied force, they don’t really amplify it. They don’t help you pull the rope, they merely prevent it from pulling back once you let go. Whatever slight lever advantage you might get from a long capstan handle is more than countered with friction losses in the capstan body. IN the age of sails ruptures from turning the anchor capstans were more common that falls from the rigging. They take a lot of force to turn.

Next you’re going to say they shouldn’t have even used ropes.

Had they used anything like a block and tackle setup you might have an argument, but so far as I’m aware it was all done by direct haulage. But even if they had, it was still Russian muscle and determination that hauled that stone. Manpower, not horsepower.

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

sidecar wrote:

No. They don’t. We’ve been over this.

The platform kept it from sinking back into the swamp, but meant that now the Russians had to haul the weight of the stone AND the weight of the platform.

So, if I understand you correctly, moving the stone on the rolling platform requires the same physical efforts as dragging the stone through the soil?

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

[VirgilParticipant 970]

I was more so meaning the availability of water. There are a lot of things they could have done. It was more of a “this is something they could have used.” Not at all trying to imply that they did. Was just meaning it as there are alternatives in addition to what had been suggested.

It would take a lot of force to turn the screw but given the available manpower it would be as viable as lifting that amount of water by hand.

There is nothing to say the water wasn’t raised in lifts, meaning smaller segments than the full 480ft segment.

Will admit though it would be fascinating to see how it was done. It’s a bit like the Easter island statues and machu picchu. So many questions could be answered by seeing those sights both during construction and just after.

Hope that someday I may lead others the path I have learned. As Virgil led Dante through Hell.

[743 roadmasterParticipant]

Been on this subject for a while now. It would be totally amazing if just one site existed say stonehenge, But these sites exist all over the world. If one culture had the know how to move massive stones it is not in the nature of men to share that let alone spread it over the world.

The Americas is where it gets very interesting. When Europeans started to move into this area it was an advanced culture moving into a stone age people. Almost no metal work, did not have the wheel. So these massive stones at Puma Punku were carved using stone tool? Moved about and set up on the backs of men. Then you have the Nasca lines. Manchu Picchu, and so on. All done by a stone age man. Don’t think so.

mgtow is its own worst enemy- https://www.campusreform.org/

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

Suggestius wrote:

So, if I understand you correctly, moving the stone on the rolling platform requires the same physical efforts as dragging the stone through the soil?

It’s a matter of the source of the effort. And you’re still intentionally missing the point which is that if a bunch of Russians can move a gigantic huge ass stone like that in the 18th century with human muscle power, then ancient people could have done the same with stones an order of magnitude less massive.

There’s no mystery about how ancient people moved megaliths. They just got enough men together and pulled.

Virgil wrote:

It would take a lot of force to turn the screw but given the available manpower it would be as viable as lifting that amount of water by hand.

How are you going to get that much manpower applied at the head of the screw? That’s a lot of men in a very small area. It’s much easier to just hand them all a rope and have the pull the stones up directly. It only takes ten men per ton with a few men guiding and levering, and if you need more men, you just use longer ropes. The average stone mass in the Great Pyramid was about one and a half tons, so that’s fifteen men to pull the ropes, four to work the levers, and one to pour the water into the silt lubricant to keep everything moving. Not coincidentally, we know the work crews were organized into gangs of twenty.

This is not how they “could” have done it. It’s how they did it.

It’s a bit like the Easter island statues

We know how they moved those too. They carved them so they’d slide down the quarry to where they could be levered upright, and the wobble-walked them (which is awesome) down specially prepared roads on their specially shaped bottoms. There are a number of examples that fell over partway and were abandoned.

The real mystery of Easter Island is why they made the Moai, and why they stopped, not how they made them.

machu picchu

And there’s nothing mysterious about how Machu Picchu was built either. The mystery there is why they built it, what they used it for, and why they built it in that particular place.

743 roadmaster wrote:

Almost no metal work, did not have the wheel. So these massive stones at Puma Punku were carved using stone tool?

Just like the stone age Egyptians building the pyramids. All they had for metal was impure copper. They hadn’t yet domesticated horses, so they didn’t have the wheel yet. Most of their stonework was done using stone tools. And that’s because stone is actually a fairly good material for working stone, especially for working relatively soft stones like the limestone in the Egyptian Pyramids and the sandstone at Pumapunku. They were still using stone axes and chisels and hammers to bash out tombs in the Bronze Age New Kingdom because they are actually more effective than bronze.

Oh, and Native Americans did have wheels. They weren’t that backwards. It’s just that their domesticated animals were all camelids (llamas and alpacas) which, unlike horses and oxen, aren’t well suited to pulling carts. So they didn’t have much practical large scale use for wheels. And wheels are generally useless for moving large stones in any case.

All done by a stone age man. Don’t think so.

You should think so. Because they sure as f~~~ weren’t done by stone age women.

Be it Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Industrial Age, or Atomic Age, Men get s~~~ done.

[SuggestiusParticipant 3312]

sidecar wrote:

It’s a matter of the source of the effort.

Wow. Today I found out that sliding friction can be less than rolling friction just due to the source of the effort. F*ck physics.

Happiness for all and let no one be forgotten ("Roadside picnic", Arkady and Boris Strugatsky)

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