The Dark Forest

[Anonymous 42]

Anonymous wrote:

And that sums up Doc in a nutshell. Unable to place blame where needed, as I pointed out earlier in this thread…

He is either an idiot, or a shill, or both.

Oh, and he will be back for more, he is a 600 horsepower bulls~~~ machine. I have seen him drive members right off the site…

[Anonymous 24]

S~~~ MG-Tower, now I have to go watch Fight Club yet again.

And Doc, one last note- You live in fear like a woman. I however will not be feared into taking the lives of those who have done me no harm.

Stay down this time.

[xlrsnbrgParticipant 1786]

Anonymous wrote:

And that sums up Doc in a nutshell. Unable to place blame where needed, as I pointed out earlier in this thread…

He is either an idiot, or a shill, or both.

Oh, and he will be back for more, he is a 600 horsepower bulls~~~ machine. I have seen him drive members right off the site…

I don’t want to put more gas on fire as I don’t know what you two have discussed in the past, but as an outsider I thought you were the one who was crazy from your previous messages in the thread. At least now you’ve made your point and I get it, but messages like “Bah, shut up already” might have the same effect of driving people away even if they’re not the target. People can deal with bulls~~~ just fine, it’s arrogance and patronizing they run away from. Just saying.

A man shouldn't make his life's objective to be on the side of the majority, but to avoid finding himself in the ranks of the insane. (Marcus Aurelius)

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

I actually see every one of us as a potential idiot, if given enough power.

Not the point at all.

If you have bus full of ladies and they have an accident, you cannot say “all of them are guilty”. The idiot driving is the guilty one!

If they elected the driver because he promised to give them free coffee without verifying his skills and let him continue to drive despite being obviously incompetent, then yes they are.

And I find this notion that the people responsible are not accountable because they are only humans to be manipulative, abusive blameshifting sociopathology.

“Leaders” are not angels or devils. They are people, the same as all the others. We choose them, we empower them and then we blame them for giving us what we’ve asked them for.

And I am glad…

Sarcasm.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

I have seen him drive members right off the site…

Citation needed.

Talk like this makes it difficult to have intelligent discussions.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

You live in fear like a woman. I however will not be feared into taking the lives of those who have done me no harm.

The true fear is to look at the cold, harsh darkness of reality and wish for it to be bright and safe.

But let me correct you… you may not directly take the lives of those who have done you no harm with your own hands, but so long as resource constraints still exist, every comfort you enjoy, every dollar you earn, every cubic foot of space you occupy, every morsel of food and drop of water that enters your mouth is consumed by you at the expense of someone else, paid for by the sweat, suffering and sacrifice of countless individuals you will never know or care about.

Your very existence makes you complicit in the circle of life, a circle upon which those who live do so on the backs of those who do not. We exist on a raft of lashed together bones adrift on a sea of the blood of those who have died and continue to die so that we may carry on living.

And for our society and perhaps even our species to continue to survive, many many more will have to perish. You may choose to do what you will with this gift… treat it like a privilege that you are free to deny and dispose of if you will, or respect and honor it by fighting to make sure it was not all in vain.

Stay down this time.

Respectfully, I decline. Enjoy your smores, camper.

[Anonymous 3]

Stargazer wrote:

ZenState wrote:I actually see every one of us as a potential idiot, if given enough power.
Not the point at all.

Yes, it is the point.

I defend that people in leadership positions should be more responsible and accountable than others. You defend that they are people like others.

So, when I say that anyone rising to the same position has the potential to be an “idiot”, how am I not making the same point as you?

Our ideas are closer than you might think.

I might be using a bit of humor calling leaders “idiots”, but THAT is a point in itself.

We cannot expect a soldier to be a tactical expert, but a general without this expertise? He is an idiot and we cannot call the soldier the same.

If people want leadership positions they have to assume the responsibility for their decisions and their outcomes.
By the very nature of the job they take they cannot say “I am just human like everyone else”. That is simply irresponsibility.

You are perfectly right that people should held leaders accountable, and be careful with who they elect. But tell me, what base have people to make decisions?

Who defines and runs the educational systems that models how people think? Who provides everyone with the information that shape people’s ideas? Who gives speeches to influence how people can decide?

The people in leadership are not “innocent” people like others. They very much manipulate everyone to their ends.

Lets get clear about this issue.

There was once a time where populations had to deal with basic survival issues and they would operate as a “culture”, just like you stated. The movie “Dances with wolves” comes to mind.

It was hard to know how to feel. I had never been in a battle like this one. This had not been a fight for territory or riches or to make men free. This battle had no ego. It had been fought to preserve the food stores that would see us through winter, to protect the lives of women and children and loved ones only a few feet away. I felt a pride I had never felt before.

That time is gone, and now we are ruled by money, politics and big ideas. I warrant that most people do not operate under big ideas or political understanding, neither they have money to influence anything. They are pawns in a complicated game that they are not aware.

Yet it appears to me you are simplifying things that are now very complex.

I dont pretend to understand what is going on, and how things will end up. But I can say one thing for sure:

If MGTOWs are to be target someday, it is not because society as a whole decided to persecute them, but because a group with power decided it was a good move.

[Anonymous 42]

Stargazer wrote:

If they elected the driver because he promised to give them free coffee without verifying his skills and let him continue to drive despite being obviously incompetent, then yes they are.

I agree, I live in the parable to that bus, where the body politic elected to go on a rampage throwing citizens from this bus under court orders to vacate the bus and remove their packages. That was in 1973.

The President of this molested body politic (bus driver) was one of the persons ordered by the court of law to vacate the premises and “remove” his trailer (packages). He was the leader of a mob of campers that went around the Brookhaven bus knocking on sleeper doors and evicting members every night showing them his court order. They complied, hundreds and hundreds of members were never seen again.

Now, in the back of this bus is where I live, I’ve torn out a few seats and put in a wood stove in the middle of this cleared out section of this bus, I cleaned up all the broken glass and put in a large skylight, now the law states that all buses must be licensed and inspected.

This bus is parked in the middle of a state highway with no license plates (LICENSE TO OPERATE), a 1974 rejection sticker (PERMANENTLY ENJOINED FROM OPERATING), and a wheel boot placed on it in 1997 (LAWFUL AND OFFICIAL ORDER TO CEASE AND DESIST FROM OPPERATING). This old 1968 rotted out s~~~-box state condemned bus has been parked on the state highway in traffic with smoke coming from my wood stove from the cleared out section of this vacated, seized, and abandoned old rotted bus with the wheel boot, no license plate, and a 1974 rejection sticker.

My only question; Who is qualified to operate this bus, and what about the highway traffic innocently driving along that may come into contact with this hazardous and deadly bus?

P.S. While all this is going on the state still collects passenger fairs from the survivors trapped in this old seized, rusty, and dilapidated bus with the wheel boot, no plates, and 1974 state rejection sticker.

NICE!

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

I defend that people in leadership positions should be more responsible and accountable than others. You defend that they are people like others.

So, when I say that anyone rising to the same position has the potential to be an “idiot”, how am I not making the same point as you?

Because I dont’t accept the notion that “idiot” has anything to do with it. If Trump is elected and deports a million muslims or builds a wall along the mexican border is he an idiot? Are the millions of people who voted for him idiots? Well the people who voted for Clinton are going to think so. And if Clinton is elected and absolves all the current student loan debt or starts a war with Iran is she an idiot? Are the millions of people who voted for her idiots? The people who voted for Trump are going ot think so.

So what have these two mouthpieces of the public will got to do with it and what does it matter what they say or do so long as they have the backing of enough of us to remain in the office? We put them there and they serve at our discretion… we are either all idiots or none of us are, either way it is irrelevant.

My point is that there are not truly any such things as leaders. The people we call leaders are simply projections of our own wants and desires in the best case, or errors that we do not have the courage to correct in the worst. That is what real responsibility means. We can shake our fists and curse the politicians, the banks, the corporations, the rich, the poor, the immigrants, the hipsters, the cops, the women or whomever, but ultimately they are us and we are them and wherever we may try to lay blame, it always ends up at our own feet.

This is all fun and pleasant to talk about, but my original point was not to identify who is to blame for the problems of our society but rather to say that reality is a dark and dangerous place and if we as individuals are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for the survival of our culture then someone else will soon be along to relieve us of it.

Now, would someone like to try to explain to me how lighting that campfire and singing that welcoming song is going to protect and preserve our society? Or would you like to reject my axioms and corollaries entirely and replace them with a world view that describes reality more accurately?

Perhaps some dialogue? I’d be happy to explain how I believe cooperation and positive sum interactions work within this context. Or, if you prefer and it makes you feel better about not having a legitimate argument to make, you may call me a shill again.

[Anonymous 42]

Hey Doc, would you have stood around negotiating with the Donner party? Or would you have screwed over the pass knowing how the guide took a dangerous route in spit your objections?

How do you negotiate with people holding you hostage to their collective bad decision?

Myself? 6 to 10 ft. snowdrifts beats 35ft of bottomless powder latter on, and being eaten by the others!

P.S. Doc? Are you of the opinion that somehow we can work out the damage caused by the 1960’s and 70’s woman’s rampage movement? They’ve utterly destroyed any culture worth saving. Things like this can only coexist under the rules of indifference, cooperation is futile, sometimes it’s best to step aside and let it all go to hell, women won’t change until starvation from their recklessness sets in.

We have a modern day Donner exposition insisting on taking an unknown route with countless obstacles along the way, we’re past the point of no return, that culture you want to save no longer exists today.

What say ye?

[Anonymous 3]

Stargazer wrote:

My point is that there are not truly any such things as leaders. The people we call leaders are simply projections of our own wants and desires in the best case, or errors that we do not have the courage to correct in the worst. That is what real responsibility means. We can shake our fists and curse the politicians, the banks, the corporations, the rich, the poor, the immigrants, the hipsters, the cops, the women or whomever, but ultimately they are us and we are them and wherever we may try to lay blame, it always ends up at our own feet.

My point is the opposite.
People are the result of cultural and religious indoctrination, most of it is done with a purpose of control.
Ordinary people are individually powerless, and only count in numbers. However, the mechanisms to mobilize great numbers are carefully controlled by those with power.

Let us take MGTOW as an example. You say that we can shake our fists at women, but ultimately they are us and we are to blame for their actions.

I disagree.

I spent my entire married life taking on my shoulders the onus of the relationship. I sacrificed my values, my ideas, my very honor. I was the epitome of someone assuming the blame for everything. Yes, we could say that I should have “manned up”, and make a stand. But I made a clear choice between staying married or making a stand that would probably end the marriage.

With the clarity of almost 25 years of this I can now say that I was an idiot. I made foolish decisions based on how I was raised and societal expectations.

My wife is an idiot also. This is being kind to her, I am not saying the she is an evil manipulative self-centered jerk. I am just saying that she is foolish for taking advantage of the cultural status quo to express her domination in the relationship.

So, where do I place the blame? Not in me anymore. Not in my wife, that just toke advantage of the world we live in.

I blame the ones that made divorce easy and profitable for women. Where are they? How can millions of victims get retribution for this crime?

It is not even considered a crime yet… Probably never will. Why? Because we are indoctrinated into thinking in a certain way. Is this innocent? I dont think so.

Stargazer wrote:

reality is a dark and dangerous place and if we as individuals are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for the survival of our culture then someone else will soon be along to relieve us of it.

No man. I dont care about this “culture” anymore. Its not my responsibility. Let those who created this mess handle it, or those that profited from the status quo now pay the price for fixing it.

My responsibility is me, I go my own way.

I stand with my values, that are actually values of goodness and kindness for others. I stand by my brothers and immediate family. I share my ideas for fun, in debates such as this one.

But more that that? Count me out.

Ninja stealth, just like Code Bunker aka Gone Camping says. He is a man that influences others, without even wanting to influence others.

Stargazer wrote:

Perhaps some dialogue? I’d be happy to explain how I believe cooperation and positive sum interactions work within this context. Or, if you prefer and it makes you feel better about not having a legitimate argument to make, you may call me a shill again

Sorry, I just had some cognitive dissonance. It appears that you talk about blackness and dangers, that we have to do something about it. Then you talk about cooperation and positive interactions. Then you criticize “lighting that campfire and singing that welcoming song”…

Can you explain that all over again?

[Anonymous 3]

Some say that the world today looks like 1984 from Orwell, but others say that it was Huxley in “Brave New World” that predicted present society.
The first one feared a world where the powers control the information, while the second feared a world where people are so obsessed with self-serving pleasures that they do not care about information.
I personally think we live in a mix of the two.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

Hey Doc, would you have stood around negotiating with the Donner party? Or would you have screwed over the pass knowing how the guide took a dangerous route in spit your objections?

I don’t know the specifics of that event but I think the rational thing to do, if the option existed, would be 1) refuse to go along if I knew the plan was faulty from the start 2) act swiftly and decisively to take control of the expedition if I realized we were headed the wrong way before it was too late and 3) strike first to kill and eat the most annoying of the party as soon as the desperation of the situation became apparent.

How do you negotiate with people holding you hostage to their collective bad decision?

Sometimes you can’t. It’s the nature of democracy that you can be outvoted and thereby coerced into doing things you do not wish to do. If those things are sufficiently objectionable, however, you have the option of becoming an outlaw. Either way, you always have a moral responsibility to know your role and accept the consequences of your choice.

Being responsible does not always mean having a viable solution. Sometimes it means doing an objectionable thing, either by having decided it yourself or by having it thrust upon you, and then doing it in full awareness and acceptance of the consequences.

P.S. Doc? Are you of the opinion that somehow we can work out the damage caused by the 1960’s and 70’s woman’s rampage movement? They’ve utterly destroyed any culture worth saving.

We have a modern day Donner exposition insisting on taking an unknown route with countless obstacles along the way, we’re past the point of no return, that culture you want to save no longer exists today.

I do not agree with your accessment that western civilization is too far gone to be saved. I think we are at the “take control of the expedition now that we realize it’s going the wrong way” stage, still. But if you believe that we are past the point of no return, then I say your most rational response is not to trudge off on your own to a snowy death but rather to metaphorically kill and eat the most annoying members of the party before they kill and eat you.

The objective is survival, after all, and in this particular case, abandoning the party to walk off into the snow alone would be suicide and therefore a deliberate choice to fail.

[Anonymous 42]

Stargazer wrote:

The objective is survival, after all, and in this particular case, abandoning the party to walk off into the snow alone would be suicide and therefore a deliberate choice to fail.

By walking off into the snow with only 2,000 feet to climb before your over the ridge with the rest of the way down hill into the mild temperate and livable valley, you’re insuring your own survival and comfort.

We’ve been snowed in by feminism, the worst storm in history! I started my MGTOW hike over the forsaken pass 19 years ago, I see many of the men I once knew are half eaten by feminism’s exposition.

It’s been a long and arduous endeavor over the pass and out of the mountains of gynocentrism, it’s warmer now and the valley is green and alive! I made it to Fort MGTOW.com where I sounded the alarm to warn my valuable uneaten brothers!

[Anonymous 24]

Still dancing with clowns I see?

Classic Doc. He completely avoids the one point I make. He is unable to point blame at those who caused what he was bitching about. He is incapable of facing strong points made and just dances around. Then accuses others of being unable to face reality. F~~~ing sociopath is what Doc is.

He talks about killing refugees, and avoids placing blame on the countries that invaded and caused the crisis. He will come back with more and more bulls~~~. You guys can keep riding his merry-go-round all you want. He is full of s~~~.

Makes topics about getting gay married to bait people, openly admits it, then says he was kidding just to make those who took the bait look crazy.

Makes topics railing against Zionism, draws people in, says he did so to bait people, then laughs at those who took the bait. I think one of the craziest things this clown has ever said is “Anti-Zionist conspiracy theorists”
Zionism itself is/was a conspiracy that started more than 100 years ago, and they achieved their goal, that of a holy land controlled by Jews…How can someone be a conspiracy theorist about a proven conspiracy??? It’s all a mess with him at every turn.

I really have no idea why such a person is allowed to be here. One would think that trolling in such a manner would be enough to get kicked off the site.

I really have no more time for him, in fact, the time I just spent writing this, about 3 minutes, was far to much to give him.

[Anonymous 24]

Stargazer wrote:

JoeBauers wrote:

I have seen him drive members right off the site…

Citation needed.

Talk like this makes it difficult to have intelligent discussions.

Wrong, talking to you is what makes it difficult to have intelligent discussions. That is why many don’t anymore. And I am sure you know who they are as I do.

Done with you.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

I spent my entire married life taking on my shoulders the onus of the relationship. I sacrificed my values, my ideas, my very honor. I was the epitome of someone assuming the blame for everything. Yes, we could say that I should have “manned up”, and make a stand. But I made a clear choice between staying married or making a stand that would probably end the marriage.

With the clarity of almost 25 years of this I can now say that I was an idiot. I made foolish decisions based on how I was raised and societal expectations.

You were not an idiot. You did what you thought was right given the information at your disposal. Once your internal moral compass began to tell you that it was not right, you had a choice to make and you chose to stay in what you clearly understood to be an undesirable situation.

You call yourself an idiot and a fool and claim it was your fault but then you morally exculpate yourself by saying you were indoctrinated. You have not taken true responsibility for your choices or your outcomes and the fact that you continue to wrestle with this is evidence of that fact.

So, where do I place the blame?

There is no blame to place. That you wish to blame someone shows that you have not yet accepted responsibility for your outcomes.

Real acceptance would be to say “I did all that and it was worth it.” or “I did all that and now I regret it but I’ve learned from the experience and moved on to greater awareness, better choices and more desirable outcomes.”

Sorry, I just had some cognitive dissonance. It appears that you talk about blackness and dangers, that we have to do something about it. Then you talk about cooperation and positive interactions.

Can you explain that all over again?

Of course I can. The logic of the dark forest is not incompatible with localized cooperation and positive-sum interaction. In a scenario where a group of individuals is united by proximity and shared culture, language, values and objectives, the chain of suspicion is low and they can coordinate their efforts for mutual benefit.

This is how we get societies. Duh.

Six people on an island survival team, for example, can work together for a common goal as long as they communicate effectively, operate on the same technological plane and see themselves as a unified group in opposition to an external force. But when the challenge is completed and it’s time to distribute resources and survival among members of the group based on individual contribution, that team will fracture, communication will cease, the chain of suspicion will lengthen, and the knives will come out.

The same is true of cultures, nations and, should we find ourselves in such an environment, sentient species.

It’s all very elementary if you give it a moment’s consideration.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

It occurs to me that when I say “responsibility”, some of you may be thinking I mean “culpability”. I do not.

Culpability, the degree to which an individual may be held morally or legally responsible for an action, is very different from responsibility as I see it. Let me use an example:

Let’s say someone breaks into your home and steals your TV.

The burglar, should you manage to catch them and prove in court that they did, in fact, steal your TV, is culpable for the crime they have committed. The court, once considering any potentially mitigating circumstances, can sentence them to incarceration, restitution, probation or any number of other penalties for that act.

You, on the other hand, are responsible. First you are responsible for protecting your home. That means a home security system, hiding your wealth so as to not make yourself a target, maintaining insurnce, etc, in order to protect your home and your things from being burgled. To the degree you fail to do this, you can be considered to be behaving irresponsibly.

You also exercise that responsibility when you react appropriately to the crime by contacting the police, providing a report, identifying the suspect and testifying in court… essentially supporting the criminal justice system in dealing with the crime committed against you.

You furthermore enact your responsibility by paying to replace your lost or damaged property and doing a better job of protecting your home and your stuff in the future… then (and this is the important part) being satisfied that justice has been done (to the extent that it reasonabley could be), learning and growing from the experience and moving on with your life.

To the degree that you fail to do these things… particularly the last part about acceptance, growth and moving forward, you are behaving irresponsibly.

This is the same logic that says a rapist should be prosecuted for their crime but that the target of that crime should also have been mindful and aware of their environment and their actions leading up to and in the wake of the crime. The rapist is culpable, the target is responsible and can be said to have behaved responsibly to the degree which they have taken and executed on that responsibility.

Likewise, G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove are culpable for the lies and atrocities committed in their pursuit of their plan for the Middle East and the Iraq war but we are responsible for giving them power and letting them use it to do something so obviously unethical.

See what I mean? I hope this helps.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

By walking off into the snow with only 2,000 feet to climb before your over the ridge with the rest of the way down hill into the mild temperate and livable valley, you’re insuring your own survival and comfort.

Once again, I am unfamiliar with the details of this particular event but I would opine that the decision to make camp and eat each other to survive was almost certainly made in the absence of the knowledge you just asserted. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

It’s been a long and arduous endeavor over the pass and out of the mountains of gynocentrism, it’s warmer now and the valley is green and alive! I made it to Fort MGTOW.com where I sounded the alarm to warn my valuable uneaten brothers!

While I appreciate the sentiment of your colorful language, were you caught in a real blizzard at high altitude with insufficient protection and resources, striking out on your own would most likely lead to your death.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Anonymous wrote:

He completely avoids the one point I make. He is unable to point blame at those who caused what he was bitching about.

Did you make a point? I’m afraid I didn’t see it. I say there is no blame to place and your desire to do so is a core symptom of your root problem.

F~~~ing sociopath is what Doc is.

I’ve f~~~ed a few sociopaths in my day, to be sure, but I’m sorry to tell you that calling me a sociopath is not an argument.

He talks about killing refugees

Illegal economic migrants. Refugees are women, children, the elderly and inferm. The men who have flooded into Europe are fighting aged men and most of them are not from Syria. They are not refugees, they are an invasion force.

Makes topics about getting gay married to bait people, openly admits it, then says he was kidding just to make those who took the bait look crazy.

The butthurt is strong in this one. I still like the idea of getting gay married as an insulator against social condemnation. TFM did an interesting analysis of the possibility of this. But I have no interest in marriage, gay or otherwise. I may still identify as a transgendered black lesbian when it suits my purposes, though.

And not every utterance must be done in absolute eanestness. Sometimes it is okay to experiment with ideas, like trying on shoes to see how they look and feel before deciding whether or not to buy them.

Makes topics railing against Zionism, draws people in, says he did so to bait people, then laughs at those who took the bait. I think one of the craziest things this clown has ever said is “Anti-Zionist conspiracy theorists” Zionism itself is/was a conspiracy that started more than 100 years ago, and they achieved their goal, that of a holy land controlled by Jews…How can someone be a conspiracy theorist about a proven conspiracy??? It’s all a mess with him at every turn.

I don’t recall ever saying anything about Zionism. Citation needed.

I really have no idea why such a person is allowed to be here. One would think that trolling in such a manner would be enough to get kicked off the site.

And out come the knives. You prove my point, would-be hunter.

I really have no more time for him, in fact, the time I just spent writing this, about 3 minutes, was far to much to give him.

If you would like to have the last word, you may call me an ass and I promise to leave it stand without comment.

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