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Anonymous 2 years, 9 months ago.
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The existence of God cannot be scientifically proven.
Pete, you’re Catholic, right? Your own religion disagrees with you:
1. CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) paragraph 47: The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason.
2. First Vatican Council, Canon 2: If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and Lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema. (Vatican I is an ecumenical dogmatic council; thus it is endowed with the authority of the Extraordinary Magisterium, the highest teaching authority of the Church, which means, according to Catholic teaching, it is infallible, i.e., cannot be wrong.)
3. Romans 1:18-21: The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. (In other words, unbelievers have no excuse because God’s existence is evident from the things he has made; the existence of the effect necessitates the existence of the cause.)
4. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars, Question 2, Article 2, Response to Objection 1: “The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected.” (St. Thomas Aquinas is called the “Angelic Doctor” and is the most eminent theologian of the Catholic Church. The quote means that belief in God is NOT A MATTER OF FAITH because it can be known by reason alone. The things that God has revealed are matters of faith because we cannot prove them, we can only take his word for them.)
Don’t take my argument as hostile. Most Catholics aren’t aware that the official Church teaching is that God’s existence can be known by reason alone, and even those who are aware generally don’t accept it. Nevertheless, I actually agree with the Church on this point. The most intelligent philosophers and thinkers agree that God’s existence is provable (Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, to name a few.) I do happen to be Catholic, but even if I weren’t, I would hold that the existence of God is scientifically provable, and not a matter of faith.
But why, you may ask, are there so many people who don’t believe in God if his existence can be proven? I answer that it’s because there’s a lot at stake with the answer. No one disputes the mathematical proof that e^(i x pi) = -1, even if they don’t understand the proof (it requires advanced calculus, infinite series and trigonometry, to prove it), and that’s because there’s nothing at stake for them. But your decision to believe in God or not has gigantic ramifications for your life; therefore, even though the proof is logically rock-solid, people will still deny it either because (a) they don’t fully understand it, or (b) they don’t want it to be true. I’m not accusing anyone on this forum of doing this, I’m just explaining why there can be atheists even though God’s existence is knowable through reason.
I believe in evangelizing, so I’d be happy to post and explain the proof, but it’s long and would take a while, so I won’t unless someone is interested in reading it (it would take a chunk out of your day). Also, it’s extremely difficult to follow if you’re not well versed in certain philosophical concepts. I’m not insulting anyone here by saying that. The proof that e^(i X pi) = -1 is rock-solid, but you won’t understand it unless you study advanced calculus first. Similarly, though I can do my best to explain it in the simplest possible terms, you probably won’t be able to follow it unless you’ve studied natural philosophy, hylomorphism, and metaphysics. Anyway, thanks for a great topic. Let me know if you’re interested in more.
Women are better at multitasking? Fucking up several things at once is not multitasking.
Great post PistolPete you wrote a lot of stuff that resonates with me. There are a lot of questions that humans want answered but as you have stated we can’t know all the answers because it was not Gods intention for us to be like God.
What reason was there for God to allow dinosaurs to roam earth for millions of years, eradicate them, then let our mammal cousins takeover only to go through the same evolutionary process as the former?
Don’t get me wrong Pete, I’m not trying to take jabs at your beliefs and I hope I didn’t come off as rude, but for me there’s just too many gaps and paradox in the Abrahamic faiths.
It’s the reason why I’m a pagan and keep my views closer to nature and the world around me.
This is exactly why a lot of people are trying to grasp the concept that God exists. Humans are constrained by time and space so they look at everything in a linear fashion. God exists in the past, present and future at the same time so if he created something like the dinosaurs in the past there was a reason for it that only he will be able to understand. If he wanted to God could go back in time right now and remove all traces of dinosaurs so that you would never be able to ask the above question because then dinosaurs would cease to exist in our timeline. Or he could place us among the dinosaurs if he wanted to do so and what killed off the dinosaurs would have killed us off as well the possibilities are endless.
God doesn’t have any constraints on time and space he moves around as he wishes and that is why when you read or hear people say humans were created for only a very short time in history it is because God chose to place us in a particular time point in his creation. Only he can know why he decided to place us on Earth at that time line. Yes the Earth, universe, and everything else in it may have taken billions of years to evolve but God in all time lines at once doing other things we will never be able to understand I hope that makes sense to you.
Do I have proof of this? No of course not because as a human I am unable to show you how this is possible only God can. But God gave us free will and the ability to postulate. Atheists and skeptics within the scientific community would rather have someone hypothesize based on observable universal laws to gain a better understanding and conclusion of the existence of God but it is not possible to do so because by his design God has not given us the capability to do so. That is why faith is very important because it helps us better understand and conceptualize our existence in the framework God created for us.
But why, you may ask, are there so many people who don’t believe in God if his existence can be proven? I answer that it’s because there’s a lot at stake with the answer. No one disputes the mathematical proof that e^(i x pi) = -1, even if they don’t understand the proof (it requires advanced calculus, infinite series and trigonometry, to prove it), and that’s because there’s nothing at stake for them. But your decision to believe in God or not has gigantic ramifications for your life; therefore, even though the proof is logically rock-solid, people will still deny it either because (a) they don’t fully understand it, or (b) they don’t want it to be true. I’m not accusing anyone on this forum of doing this, I’m just explaining why there can be atheists even though God’s existence is knowable through reason.
I believe in evangelizing, so I’d be happy to post and explain the proof, but it’s long and would take a while, so I won’t unless someone is interested in reading it (it would take a chunk out of your day). Also, it’s extremely difficult to follow if you’re not well versed in certain philosophical concepts. I’m not insulting anyone here by saying that. The proof that e^(i X pi) = -1 is rock-solid, but you won’t understand it unless you study advanced calculus first. Similarly, though I can do my best to explain it in the simplest possible terms, you probably won’t be able to follow it unless you’ve studied natural philosophy, hylomorphism, and metaphysics. Anyway, thanks for a great topic. Let me know if you’re interested in more.
What many atheists and skeptics are looking for is physical proof of existence of God. I asked Autolite who is a atheist what proof would he require in order for God to exist for him and his response was if he cut off his arm and God willed it to grow back that would be a start along with other miracles and for him to show himself. So no matter what proof you try to bring to the table unless they are able to see it for themselves they won’t believe anything you have to write.
It is like the red pill they have to learn for themselves by seeing and doing for themselves you cannot teach and show them the way to God. You can try if you want go right ahead but I have found and learned unless they are willing to open themselves up to God they will refuse your evidence. Also I am not a Catholic if you were to ask but I see where you were going with your post.
THE CASE FOR GOD. > ON TOUR.
Coming to a gig near you.http://www.photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/419/788suitcase.jpg
with joy/without hate
You can try if you want go right ahead but I have found and learned unless they are willing to open themselves up to God they will refuse your evidence.
Yes, it’s like I said, there’s a lot at stake with this one. In my opinion, miracles are a poor reason to believe in God. If a miracle causes you to believe, then great, but many so-called “miracles” are perfectly explainable by natural phenomena; thus I think it would be unwise to build one’s faith on them. I’m not saying miracles aren’t real, just that sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between something that’s actually supernatural, vs. something that’s just freakishly weird.
Women are better at multitasking? Fucking up several things at once is not multitasking.
What reason was there for God to allow dinosaurs to roam earth for millions of years, eradicate them, then let our mammal cousins takeover only to go through the same evolutionary process as the former?
Because that never happened. Dinosaurs/Dragons (The word Dinosaur only exists since 1841, so it cant be found in the bible) lived at the same time as humans and were killed by humans the bible narrates.
Dinosaurs/Dragons lived at the same time as humans and were killed by humans the bible narrates.
That was priceless! I just had to up-vote that post! I knew that if I lurked this thread long enough it was going to get entertaining. I just spewed my Rice Krispies all over my laptop… 😀 😀 😀
Anonymous54If your an Athiest, and you stub your toe, why do you say God Damn it?
Why faith?
Without faith this life and world is meaningless. It would be devoid of purpose or any sense of justice and virtue. All people ascribe to a believe system whether they choose to accept it or not. Even the mere fact of UNBELIEF is a BELIEF.
About the inalienable rights of humans, I don’t see any connection with the existence of god…
Humans don’t really have too much rights.
If you think about it, nowadays a dog can have more rights than a human.I myself have often pondered this exact question. If you don’t believe in a God, then what is the source of Law regarding the governance of man? For an atheist/agnostic I would assume it would be fellow man. We know, that man is inherently flawed thus the system will be inevitably flawed. I, personally believe the system is flawed, but the faith aspect allows us a society to strive toward the ideal. That alone is conducive to a more prosperous and homogeneous society, because at the core we can all agree on basic moral virtues: no murdering, no adultery, no stealing. This produces peace.
something designed the universe.
we are not some random collection of molecules.
there is purpose in our design.Yeah I believe in intelligent design. This universe is way too ordered to happen by mere coincidence. The sheer size of cosmos is what beckons the question, “What else is out there?”. It is what fundamentally shaped the belief archetype, and will continue to do so for ages to come.
Don’t get me wrong Pete, I’m not trying to take jabs at your beliefs and I hope I didn’t come off as rude, but for me there’s just too many gaps and paradox in the Abrahamic faiths.
I have found when you research the Aramaic Bible you will find that the way to quantify time was quite distorted after the many translations available today. Time didn’t have a specific defined value. There were no days, sec, hours, etc. It was was relative to an individual’s experience in their lifetime. God transcends time, so time never effects him. This allows for God to shape creation at his own whim. Nothing limits how he wan’t to arrange the cosmos. With this understanding the 7th day creation/genealogy is not truly tenable. This can account for the geological, and archaeological finds. This even allows room for paleontology and genealogy to be included into the discussion. In other words, this allows for some collaboration of ideas rather than science and beliefs to be an exclusionary.
Fuck bitches... literally and metaphorically
Without faith this life and world is meaningless. It would be devoid of purpose or any sense of justice and virtue. All people ascribe to a believe system whether they choose to accept it or not. Even the mere fact of UNBELIEF is a BELIEF.
Precisely. And Autolite is a fine example. Notice he didn’t join the discussion in any sort of meaningful way, nor did he address any of the arguments made by myself, Redpillbible, Rhino etc. And this is because he can’t. His belief is non-belief.
Consider his reliance on “sleep paralysis” to explain things of a paranormal nature he has experienced. He NEVER EVER even considers the possibility that his explanation may not be the case…now why is that? A logical mind considers ALL the possibilities. But the possibility that his experience may indeed be exactly what it appears flies in the face of his neat little logic box. And therefore must be rejected or rationalized into fitting into the box. Otherwise his whole system of non-belief collapses—I know I’ve had that experience. So in a way he is displaying precisely the same kind of dedication to dogma he accuses the spiritual folks of having…kind of funny in a way.
CSTT–yes I know officially the Catholic Church claims proof of God—and they are wrong. And they are often wrong about a good many things…most of the time.That is the problem with religion–but not a problem with God. But to answer your question yes they consider the risen Christ as “proof”. because as St. Paul points out the religion implodes without this belief. So as Catholics and Christians we believe and have faith that our belief is founded upon proof.
I came to realize your faiths are as strong as steel.
True and I have an unfair advantage. Sometimes God will provide proof on an individual basis. I was an atheist just like Autolite for 30 years–my refrain was the same as his: Show me proof and I’ll believe”! I loved having every question reduced to an issue of mathematics or biology. Everything was so simple, orderly and logical. I miss it.
Sometimes, not often but sometimes God says: What proof? OK you asked for it. Believe me Autolite’s desire to have an arm chopped off and God re-grows it IS NOTHING compared to enduring the real experience. It changes you forever. So in a way going back to my original argument I really don’t have free will anymore. God gave me proof; so its easy for me to have faith. BUT beware asking for that kind of thing, it may not be pleasant or beatific at all.
And Autolite is a fine example. Notice he didn’t join the discussion in any sort of meaningful way, nor did he address any of the arguments made by myself,
Nor do I intend to. And I made that perfectly clear with my reason given. But why would you think that I would even want to? To get bashed again by being called a troll when I ask the hard questions? Seriously, f~~~ that s~~~!
In any case, an Atheist doesn’t even need to chime in here. You Theists are selling Atheism with your posts and comments far better than I could ever hope to do myself.
But you guys carry on. I’ll watch from the sidelines. I’m just waiting for someone to come up with a mathematical proof for the coexistence of man and dinosaurs…
CSTT–yes I know officially the Catholic Church claims proof of God—and they are wrong. And they are often wrong about a good many things…most of the time.
That’s really isn’t a problem that the Catholic church is alone on. It’s not even just a religious problem. The information has brought about the idea that humans can know and be sure of…everything. You would think the information age would cause out the seek out the truth, but instead, we settle for believing the lies we are told as truth. Truth is silenced by narratives, because the narrator can back it up with ‘facts’ and make you believe it’s true.
I find it interesting that as a school kid, the idea that science was a matter of direct observation was drilled into our heads. Isolate the variables to understand how it works. Today, all the science we hear about has nothing to do with observation, it’s completely about extrapolation. We monitor the weather to predict how it’s going to be 20 years from now. We look at bones and such and predict how it was billions of years ago. All extrapolation, no direct observation. We even believe we know how the universe became, something we can’t even remotely observe. We believe that we are able to understand everything, and therefore we must be able to come up with the answer, not even realizing how we skew the results to fit the narrative.
The fact of the matter is we don’t know. We were never intended to know. We probably aren’t even capable of fully understanding and are better off not knowing.
We’ve also know that there was 3 dimensions to space. We’ve only recently realized that time is the 4th dimension. But consider that there is a 5th dimension we don’t even yet comprehend. What are 6, 7 or more dimensions. A world more complex we can’t fathom it’s really existing, similar to the way an ant can’t fathom the world as we know it, yet the ant is absolutely in it. But a being, a God that comprehends and can operate in the extra dimensions as freely as we operate in 3 would be able to create and do things beyond our ability to comprehend, yet it is absolutely real. Again the same way our lives aren’t comprehensible to the ant, yet is very much real.
Ok. Then do it.
WHOOOOAH there my friend. Back up! I never bashed you nor did I say you were a troll. You asked a question and my post answers it, clearly and concisely, and opens the floor to other opinions and discussion. You choose not to enter the discussion and address or rebut the arguments I, and others raised. And that’s your choice, but understand that when you raise a subject (on another thread) and others address it in a meaningful substantive way and you fail to address the counter-arguments you lose credibility. When you choose instead to ADMIT you are lurking for the purpose of entertainment you are being disrespectful to everyone else. You did say that didn’t you? Your own statement suggests you are not taking anyone elses’s point of view seriously and you’re just in for laughs. Maybe that is why someone called you a troll…could be. That being the case why should anyone grant to you a courtesy you are unable or unwilling to extend to others? Does that make you a troll or not? Personally I don’t know and I reject labels since they are not arguments.
In point of fact I would say the collective level of discourse on THIS thread far exceeds some of the juvenile labeling etc on…”other threads” related to the topic. I opened this thread in order to discuss the issue in a mature, respectful adult manner; and everyone has done so.
Maybe that is why someone called you a troll…could be.
Perhaps you should go back and check again the “Relgion” thread. I was accused of being a troll because I asked SERIOUS questions and made counter points that underscored the absurdity of Theism so I’m now saying ‘f~~~-it’.
I’m sure that you all can carry on without my input. I won’t deny though that it’s funny and entertaining. As someone once said; “Religion mocks itself”. And that Sir just ain’t my f~~~ing fault…
WOW that was powerful stuff. Never seen that before. However I have often postulated that mankind could be vastly older than previously thought. After all if you remove knowledge of previous generations—well we are all just one generation away from the stone age.
I note also that the suppression of any point of view other than the accepted orthodoxy is a real fact. The Bible tells us there were once giants; a 16″ foot print would be a guy over 9 feet tall. Its entirely possible that civilizations have risen and fallen many many times.
I hope @ohno sees this video. Thanks man!
CSTT–yes I know officially the Catholic Church claims proof of God—and they are wrong. And they are often wrong about a good many things…most of the time.That is the problem with religion–but not a problem with God. But to answer your question yes they consider the risen Christ as “proof”. because as St. Paul points out the religion implodes without this belief. So as Catholics and Christians we believe and have faith that our belief is founded upon proof.
No, I’m not talking about the risen Christ. Belief in the risen Christ is a matter of faith alone. There is no way to prove it. But God’s existence is not a matter of faith. I’m talking about a logical demonstration that takes the form of an extended syllogism using empirically verifiable premises. God’s existence is as certain and provable as the Pythagorean theorem and the laws of thermodynamics.
Women are better at multitasking? Fucking up several things at once is not multitasking.
The information has brought about the idea that humans can know and be sure of…everything.
I’d be the first to say that we definitely cannot. The intellect is finite. It can only know what it has the capacity to know. Certain concepts are utterly beyond its understanding (what it means to exist outside of time, for instance). Furthermore, as Socrates is famous for teaching, real wisdom is the recognition that we actually DON’T know many of the things we think we know. We in fact only know for sure the things that are demonstrable.
Nevertheless, the existence of God falls into the category of a demonstrable truth. There’s a lot about God that we don’t know, but that he exists is provable. God designed the human intellect to have the capacity to know he exists, even if there’s lots of things we can’t know.
Women are better at multitasking? Fucking up several things at once is not multitasking.
I’m talking about a logical demonstration that takes the form of an extended syllogism using empirically verifiable premises. God’s existence is as certain and provable as the Pythagorean theorem and the laws of thermodynamics.
Holy crap—I didn’t know that; Forgive me I misunderstood your earlier post. I was limiting myself to the “proof” argument made by St. Augustine. I (and I’m sure others) would be very interested in your analysis. YOU GO Brother!
Excellent further point Can’t Stump Trump—+100. That is similar to the “perfection” argument I made earlier—just because there are some things which remain unknown/not understood DOES NOT invalidate the overall premise!
You guys are awesome–I can see why autolite bailed, and Itsallbs never took this up. You guys are really solid. Its shame in a way the THX 1138 quit this site; he would have argued the counter-point with great eloquence—even if we didn’t end up agreeing with him. I believe the strength of a given argument is forged in the fire of debate and discussion. If one’s philosophy, argument can’t withstand attack it must be abandoned. IF on the other hand it can survive assault–then you know your argument is valid. Wonderful job guys.
mathematical proof for the coexistence of man and dinosaurs…
beasts + dinosaurs + woemyns = one dohhh I mean 3…ahhHhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…...
I was always horrible at Proofs: but no need and it takes all the fun out of things.
I know that I’m going to die.
I’ll follow a lot of people I love. I would have added “and a lot of people that I didn’t” BUT I trust that on the path beyond or at the last breath, I’ll love them all regardless. For me, since I’ll love them then, why not start early a few breaths at a time. Closer to that time as being NOW as I ever was.
Packing as much fun out of this tour as possible, with Joy without Hate.
brothers all, be at peace on this wonderful earth.
with joy/without hate
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