The case for God;

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Let me begin by stating that I understand the depth of passion in the debate–but I’m going to attempt to keep this orderly and to the point. I begin with a number of premises chief of which is the plain fact that the existence of God cannot be scientifically proven. If it could be then there would be no debate, and no need for faith. By definition faith is a belief which is not based upon provable data. Secondly there is a difference between belief in God and belief in a particular religion(s). Religions are the creation of men–not God and since men are flawed it follows that religions are going to be flawed in some way…so I’m not going to waste time defending one religion or another. Nor am I going to do the Jeffersonian thing and focus exclusively upon Jesus as a teacher of a moral code. There is more to it than that.

Lets begin with the issue of faith. Why faith? After all God could if he wished provide absolute positive proof of his existence so why doesn’t he and solve the question once and for all. Answer: because if he did it would solve the question once and for all–there would be no debate nor would there be free will anymore. With proof of God everyone would be compelled then to accept him as God; no one would be free to reject Him. And God requires that men have free will and may choose to reject him. In the face of proof free will becomes a dead letter. The logical inverse of course is that if there is free will then there can never be “proof”, one must rely on faith.

But not faith alone–God also gave people the power to reason; and reason and faith work together. Examine the argument of St. Augustine; why must there be a God? Answer because the world is filled with iniquity, wickedness and injustice, and the average person suffers at the hands of those who inflict injustice. If there is no God then there is no final accounting for those engaged in injustice and evil–they get off scott free; which in turn means for their victims there is never any hope of justice which makes life utterly meaningless. You might as well kill yourself now and spare yourself years of misery, pain and strife right? Why go through all that for no reason?

The thinkers of the Enlightenment used their reason to build upon this idea. Eternal Justice should not have to wait for the Second coming of Christ. Hence the idea that men, as creations of God have inalienable rights. And because no government of men is superior to God, government must respect the rights of men granted by virtue of being created by God. This is the corner stone of representative government. Dos not our own Declaration of Independence have as its philosophical basis the notion that men have rights granted to them by God, and when government becomes destructive to those rights there is not only the right to resist BUT THE OBLIGATION to do so.

Now if one does not believe in God then what is the source of inalienable rights? The only answer can be men. But as explained above men are also the source of inequity and injustice. So how can such a contradiction be resolved? It can’t. If men are the source of their own rights then what is or is not a right becomes fluid—in flux and constantly changing to meet one whim or another. In a word they cease to be rights. Because if men grant them–men can take them away with equal ease. (This by the way is why socialist/communist governments are hostile to the notion of inalienable rights—they claim the power as men to define at the moment what is or is not a right.)

So religion as merely a mechanism for the worship of God is largely irrelevant when considering the larger question–Must there be a God at all. I would argue that if one believes in inalienable rights one must also believe in a God who has bestowed this upon his creations. And it follws that if one does not believe in God, then there are no absolutes with regard to rights. You instead exist at the whim and caprice of other men which of course means you will become a victim to injustice and that in turn makes your life meaningless.

Not to be circular here but since I have faith, and believe in inalienable rights I must also accept that NO life is meaningless—all life has meaning—for those who do not we have seen the result—rationalizations to justify the slaughter of millions in camps. That is the end product of rights—from man.

[Greg HondaParticipant 6406]

I can see you’ve thought deeply about this subject, and the argument seems rational to me from a philisophical perspective.

But then again, you’re preaching to the choir with me so that’s an easy win. I expect there will be some people who have a radically different perspective.

I’m going to try and avoid being trolled into a never ending argument on this one.

So I leave it to the floor.

It's Time to get Wise

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

After the debacle of Friday night when I had to have my thread deleted I figured I would now take up the challenge head on. Thanks man.

[DorkShitParticipant 4353]

This is a core philosophical discussion that has raged since time began.

Ayn Rand always answered with the logical “you can’t prove a negative”

I have always been inclined towards the “we are not the God but we are a God”

In my view, all organized religions exist to control the masses. As population grew you had to set boundaries. Mainly using guilt and threat of force, etc.

I often speculate what if. What if in the future we discovered that Mars once was populated with humans? What if Mars atmosphere was crumbling as earth’s was evolving.

As you travel around the globe and visit ancient sites it becomes apparent that pieces of the puzzle are missing.

We can’t piece together the ancient sites and they atleast have physical things to research. Evidence you can touch.

But, good thoughts Mr. Pete.

Peace brothers

[Anonymous 54]

Happy Easter!

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Thanks man—This is primarily a gauntlet throw down to our atheist friends who decided to f~~~ up my Friday night offering.

[Anonymous 54]

I respect Athiest.

I respect there non holidays.

I wish the debate could be set aside on the Holidays.

Out of respect.

[Anonymous 2]

I do believe in the existence of god, but his nature might be much different than what we can imagine.

About the inalienable rights of humans, I don’t see any connection with the existence of god…

Humans don’t really have too much rights.
If you think about it, nowadays a dog can have more rights than a human.

[Anonymous 42]

Feminism set out to destroy the church, the family, men, and the patriarchy.

They’ve done a fine job of destroying everything that preserves a society.

I think MGTOW is the only escape from the raging flames of our burning civilization.

Where is god during all this?
Standing behind his word that cannot be torn down nor corrupted.

We’re in miserable times because civilizations reap what they sew, ours has sewn poison oak, poison sumac, and poison ivy; that’s why everyone but MGTOW are itching and scratching in misery.

I’m not allergic to poison ivy, I can chop through the stuff all day. I’m only allergic to feminism.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

PistolPete wrote:

Nor am I going to do the Jeffersonian thing and focus exclusively upon Jesus as a teacher of a moral code.

I dont know who that is, but that would be a fundamental christian view, because Jesus said he alone is our instructor.
Without that being true our faith is meaningless.

Mathew 23,8-12 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Now after reading this, you gotta wonder about religions how they are not only different, but are actually doing the opposite of what christ said. And this not the only thing where religions seem to be exactly aware of what christ taught, but do the exact opposite on perpuse.
For example the baptizing…John and Jesus baptized adults that have free will, while the churches baptizes helpless babies.
I just dont buy it that religions are only man made and are making a few mistakes here and there…its just too much.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

Sorry I was refering to The Life And Morals Of Jesus Of Nazareth by Thomas Jefferson usually referred to as The Jefferson Bible. The compilation of the teachings of Jesus and his moral code by Thomas Jefferson. When he wrote this Jefferson deliberately omitted anything he regarded as superstitious or metaphysical. Jefferson was heavily influenced by Unitarian preachers. His work might best be described as an abridged paraphrase of the sections of the four gospels that he agreed with. Jefferson had no respect for the writings of the apostle Paul, and only marginal regard for the four gospel writers.

“Like other Enlightenment rationalists, Jefferson was convinced that the real villain in the Christian story was the apostle Paul, who had corrupted the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus, which thus had, in combination with the otherworldly outlook of the Fourth Gospel, produced the monstrosities of dogma, superstition, and priestcraft, which were the essence of Christian orthodoxy.”

The Jefferson Bible was an attempt to harmonize the gospels. All references to the Deity of Christ are deleted. The virgin birth of Christ, His genealogy, miracles and claims of Divinity are gone. One of the few things left are the parables.

According to Jefferson, when Jesus left the man who had been blind since birth (John 9) the man was still blind, Malchus was left with his ear cut off and Lazarus was left rotting in the tomb.

In The Jefferson Bible you will find no reference to Christ fulfilling prophecy, or the Spirit of the Lord being upon Him. Nor will you find the victory of Christ over the temptations which Satan placed in His way.

The Jefferson Bible abruptly ends with these words: “Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.”

Paul tells us the consequences of a doctrine like that found in The Jefferson Bible: “But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is vain and your faith is also vain. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up — if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable” (1 Cor. 15:13-19).

[RoyDalParticipant]

I believe in an absolute power that created the universe and now sustains it. Call it “God” or whatever else.

“Believe” is not a strong enough word. It is like saying “I believe the sky is blue” on a cloudless day. I know there is a God and we are created by God.

By saying “know” it is meant in the same sense as seeing for myself that the sky is blue, rocks are hard, and water is wet. I’ve been there, and experienced that.

I’ve over-shared. I’d say “sorry” but I’m not.

Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?

[Joey CusackParticipant 1044]

If belief in Christianity works for you, enriches your life, then who has the right to mess with that? If practicing Zen does the same for someone else, same thing.

F~~~ the haters.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

oh ok…President Jefferson.

PistolPete wrote:

“Like other Enlightenment rationalists, Jefferson was convinced that the real villain in the Christian story was the apostle Paul

Paul was no help indeed, because he only confused things.
Paul never met christ and isnt mentioned in John, Matthew, Mark and Matthew…Pauls Story is fascizinating, but I dont trust in Paul.
Also there is this note about false apostles in the revelation.
Im not saying Paul was a liar, because if im wrong here and Paul was honest and all he said and wrote was the truth, i should be ashamed.

Rev 2,2-3 I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary…

apostles…plural…thomas and paul possibly?
Paul certainly didnt preach the opposite of christ teachings nonstop, but sometimes he made me wonder when I read his stuff.

PistolPete wrote:

The Jefferson Bible was an attempt to harmonize the gospels. All references to the Deity of Christ are deleted. The virgin birth of Christ, His genealogy, miracles and claims of Divinity are gone. One of the few things left are the parables.

According to Jefferson, when Jesus left the man who had been blind since birth (John 9) the man was still blind, Malchus was left with his ear cut off and Lazarus was left rotting in the tomb.

In The Jefferson Bible you will find no reference to Christ fulfilling prophecy, or the Spirit of the Lord being upon Him. Nor will you find the victory of Christ over the temptations which Satan placed in His way.

The Jefferson Bible abruptly ends with these words: “Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.”

What? 🙂

[DorkShitParticipant 4353]

I’m so atheist that I don’t believe in atheism

Peace brothers

[HitmanParticipant]

trees didn’t create themselves.
reverse evolution and it goes back to a ‘big bang”..
something designed the universe.
we are not some random collection of molecules.
there is purpose in our design.
.
it’s NOT all B.S.
.
if it was, what’s the point of living ?
things have value and meaning.
this world is not an accident,
nor is it a mistake.

[MACHOParticipant]

You must own a better Crystal ball than I

[Joey AlfioParticipant]

What reason was there for God to allow dinosaurs to roam earth for millions of years, eradicate them, then let our mammal cousins takeover only to go through the same evolutionary process as the former?

Don’t get me wrong Pete, I’m not trying to take jabs at your beliefs and I hope I didn’t come off as rude, but for me there’s just too many gaps and paradox in the Abrahamic faiths.

It’s the reason why I’m a pagan and keep my views closer to nature and the world around me.

Δεν υπάρχει τίποτε αδύνατο γι’ αυτόν που θα προσπαθήσει. - Μέγας Αλέξανδρος

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

That is a good question joey and no you didn’t come off as rude at all—no sweat brother.

Please don’t take this as a cop-out but I don’t know. Only God does know. This is where faith comes into play. Faith is not based on logic. I am a logician myself but men are more than just reason and logic. We are much more complicated, and have greater depth to our being. Some things are going to be a mystery. I accept that. The point is yes there are inconsistencies but can any one of those overturn the totality of the entire system of belief?

You’re making the “perfection” argument–that the universal system of belief must be infallible everywhere all the time in order to be valid…that is a reasonable argument in the context of science, I don’t think it applies to issues of faith—and that is any faith, even yours.

So good point man!

And MAcho—funny as heck +100

[Joey AlfioParticipant]

PistolPete wrote:

That is a good question joey and no you didn’t come off as rude at all—no sweat brother.

I’m glad for that. I know how touchy the subject can be and some people can think they’re being directly attacked.

PistolPete wrote:

Please don’t take this as a cop-out but I don’t know. Only God does know. This is where faith comes into play. Faith is not based on logic

It’s not that I’m questioning the existence of a supreme being or creator — in fact, as a pagan, my beliefs are somewhat parallel to yours with the exception that I pay tribute and can worship several gods all at once. The problem I initially had was the universality of it — that we take it for granted and assume it’s true even though as times change so does our discovery and laws of science and how we perceive things. This is why I correlated biology to the history of man and of earth as interpreted in the bible as being contradictory.

And I do agree that we have depth (with the exception of c~~~s) which explains our creativity and problem solving abilities, but if you also look at the average behavior of anyone it becomes demoralizing and you start to wonder how different are we truly from chimps? Of course others could interpret that as the devil being of influence or view it from a Darwinian point of view, etc, but let’s not go there.

Unless there’s some demonstrable proof, axiom, etc., I have a habit of dissecting things and splitting them to their proper parts and categories and see where they fit in this world.

PistolPete wrote:

The point is yes there are inconsistencies but can any one of those overturn the totality of the entire system of belief?

perhaps not. I came to realize your faiths are as strong as steel.

Redpillbible, you’re right some of their descendants are alive and remain to this day but they’re minuscule compared to their ancestors. Literally everyday archaeologists are finding new species of dinosaurs and we’re still in the early stages of biological discovery as a whole. There have been so many life forms before us that it’s dizzying.

I like hitman’s interpretation:

Hitman wrote:

things have value and meaning.
this world is not an accident,
nor is it a mistake.

One can look at life as something consisting of trial and error where accidents and mistakes can either break or make you.

Δεν υπάρχει τίποτε αδύνατο γι’ αυτόν που θα προσπαθήσει. - Μέγας Αλέξανδρος

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