On echo chambers and confirmation bias

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

The things below are something I’ve been thinking of lately when reading the forums. Not sure where I want to go with it. They are some reflections I’ve made during the past week. Feel free to comment, disagree or flame.

The echo chamber
One of the characteristic traits of women is the need to agree on all beliefs and never to question the collective stances of hive. The common example is that when a woman complains about something, she wants you to agree, not solve the problem (it’s not about the nail). If you ever spent time with a group of women you will have noticed that dissent or questioning any actions, beliefs, or values is never taking place. When one woman voices an opinion, the rest either agree or nod. If the opinion voiced was not in agreement with the collective mindset, the s~~~-talk starts when the offending person has left the group. Argumentation never takes place with the person present. This is one of the reasons the feminist movement has turned into an echo chamber where ideas and opinions are not allowed to be questioned. The person who want to bring up to scrutiny or carry out a logical argument that puts into question the common beliefs is attacked, shamed, and eventually excommunicated if she does not apologize and subordinate herself to the hive. This has led to 3rd wave feminism becoming an echo chamber with strict thought-policing.

I sincerely hope that this forum does not work like this, and that there is an open mindset and space to voice opinions that differ from those other have. Without open rational discussion where also views dissenting from the majority can be put forward without shaming and calls for excommunication one cannot progress.

This brings me to the other thing I have been thinking about lately

Confirmation bias
From the interaction and discussions I have had with feminists in the past, one thing that always bothered (angered) me was their training to always seek gender inequality roots to all situations where a woman was having any sort of disadvantage. This is further enhanced to actively seek out every instance where one can find an example of the evil patriarchy oppressing women, regardless of how remote and far-fetched. This leads to an effective brainwashing through confirmation bias by exposure to a continuous stream of examples that confirm and cement already existing beliefs.

What does this have to do with MGTOW?
Beware of echo chamber mentality and confirmation bias. Always think for yourself, and respect that others might think differently. If you don’t agree, make rational arguments. Don’t shame or resort to name calling. If not, we are no better than the SJW-crowd and 3rd wave feminists, but just on the other side of the spectrum. Beware of only seeking out material that enhances your confirmation bias.

Think for yourself – go Your own way also with your mind, thoughts and beliefs.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Cú ChulainnParticipant 3910]

Excellently put, agree 100%.

[Anonymous 0]

My opinion:

There are some issues where people get kind of heated. Religion and abortion are big ones. And when a lot of people are coming down hard on one side, then it can seem like the place has turned into an echo chamber if you’re on the minority side.

But it’s really about how good *you* are at being in the minority. And it’s not that other people want to convert you; it’s just that they’ve heard it all before and don’t really want to get lectured by you. The best way to handle it when you’re in the minority: State your position, make one good argument to show where you’re coming from, then bite your tongue and figure that there’s nothing more for you to say on the issue. No one will mind if your opinion differs from theirs. But they will get kind of irritated if you won’t back down and insist on lecturing them and trying to convert them when you’re clearly outnumbered. Like I’ve said, they’ve heard it all before.

Other than that, the forum is pretty much like life itself:

Life is tough. There is a lot of paranoia and emotion out there. People get in your face over minor things. People will correct you and s~~~-test you (due to one-upmanship and just to see how you react to the pressure). People come here and post when they’re drunk, and sometimes they get a little belligerent. Also, you’ll find some conspiracy freaks and people will say some racist s~~~ sometimes. But don’t fear disagreement and conflict. Most often it’s not about substance; it’s just about riffing and back-and-forth. It’s not meant to be personal. Be a bit oblivious: Act unaware of the other person’s mood or that the s~~~ has gotten awkward. Joke on past it. If it’s just a s~~~-test, there’s no obligation to take the bait.

In other words, it’s not about echo chambers and confirmation bias. It’s more about putting up with a very diverse crowd, some who may get under your skin at times. Don’t assume that people have to argue the same way you argue. You may make an intellectual argument, and someone comes back at you with an emotional argument. Or vice versa.

Just give people a little breathing room. Don’t humiliate a guy so badly that he’s got nowhere to turn, because then he’s going to come at you at some later date when you’re vulnerable. And if you think you’re being pressed too hard or that people are ganging up on you, don’t take it personally. It gets heated here sometimes. There’s a lot of drunk posting in the evenings. Just say, “Okay, I gotta take a break” and sign off. Come back the next morning and everything will be cool again.

[AwakenedParticipant 35202]

MGTOW is TRUTH

In a World of Justin Beibers Be a Johnny Cash

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

Thanks for the advice. Being a new member I have a lot to learn.

Anonymous wrote:

Religion and abortion are big ones.

I don’t care about either, and avoid engaging in those discussions as they never lead anywhere.

Anonymous wrote:

And when a lot of people are coming down hard on one side, then it can seem like the place has turned into an echo chamber if you’re on the minority side. But it’s really about how good *you* are at being in the minority.

It’s where I thrive. I like taking the opposite point of view in a discussion just for the sake of arguing (not because I necessarily don’t agree with them, but just to make the discussion more interesting). Some people find me annoying because of that. [/quote]

Anonymous wrote:

And it’s not that other people want to convert you; it’s just that they’ve heard it all before and don’t really want to get lectured by you. The best way to handle it when you’re in the minority: State your position, make one good argument to show where you’re coming from, then bite your tongue and figure that there’s nothing more for you to say on the issue. No one will mind if your opinion differs from theirs. But they will get kind of irritated if you won’t back down and insist on lecturing them and trying to convert them when you’re clearly outnumbered. Like I’ve said, they’ve heard it all before.

This one I might get into trouble with. Just because a majority holds a certain belief, I am not usually backing down on my stance. I know I am new to these forums, and will try to remember this advice.

Anonymous wrote:

In other words, it’s not about echo chambers and confirmation bias. It’s more about putting up with a very diverse crowd, some who may get under your skin at times. Don’t assume that people have to argue the same way you argue. You may make an intellectual argument, and someone comes back at you with an emotional argument. Or vice versa.

Good point. I tend to argue from an intellectual standpoint. But exactly herein lies the point. If you try to use rational arguments agains the SJW-crowd, the respond by reaction emotionally. In fact, whenever we face an argument that threatens our beliefs, we are all emotionally affected (including myself). However, if one lets emotions rule by deliberatly avoiding making arguments because it may offend people, then I would argue that it is no better than the SJW-crowd.

Anonymous wrote:

And if you think you’re being pressed too hard or that people are ganging up on you, don’t take it personally. It gets heated here sometimes. There’s a lot of drunk posting in the evenings. Just say, “Okay, I gotta take a break” and sign off. Come back the next morning and everything will be cool again.

As I’m in Europe I tend to be fast asleep during US evenings. Maybe I should stay up later…

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Anonymous 0]

Confucius wrote:

Good point. I tend to argue from an intellectual standpoint. But exactly herein lies the point. If you try to use rational arguments agains the SJW-crowd, the respond by reaction emotionally. In fact, whenever we face an argument that threatens our beliefs, we are all emotionally affected (including myself). However, if one lets emotions rule by deliberatly avoiding making arguments because it may offend people, then I would argue that it is no better than the SJW-crowd.

No, I’m not saying you have to do this or that. My point was simply that there are no rules here on how people debate. If you come here expecting formal debate rules, you’re going to be disappointed. When it comes to debate, the people here are mostly street fighters. They’ll come at you in ways that may seem manifestly unfair, because it’s not the typical intellectual debate that you would prefer. But again, it’s best to roll with the punches. Make your point, and after that learn to recognize when you’re wasting your breath and it’s time to move on.

Or you can wrangle endlessly, if you want. But you’ll quickly learn what it’s like to wrangle with street fighters.

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

Anonymous wrote:

My point was simply that there are no rules here on how people debate. If you come here expecting formal debate rules, you’re going to be disappointed.

I neither expect nor require formal debate rules. I guess the point I was trying to make was more that I was contemplating mob-mentality against “wrong-thinkers”. Personally, I am not easily offended. Not even in real life. I have had friends and colleagues at work trying very deliberatly to get me off balance in discussions. I usually enjoy watching them try.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Point Of No ReturnParticipant 4074]

About the hive… Sure, they all keep their mouths shut for the sake of feminism, but I’ll tell you this: you should see the laser eyes they give each other in totally silence as they look at each other up and down. They are constantly sizing each other up and this includes all the feelings of jealousy and envy that you can imagine. Generally speaking guys don’t do that, at least not in that way. Sure, you size a guy up if your in the heat of competition, no problem, but otherwise you’re cool, or should be, you know, relaxed and full of NFG. The hive does not know NFG, that’s OUR TOOL.

Know when it is your duty to give them zero explanations for your actions.

[Anonymous 0]

Confucius wrote:

I neither expect nor require formal debate rules. I guess the point I was trying to make was more that I was contemplating mob-mentality against “wrong-thinkers”. Personally, I am not easily offended. Not even in real life. I have had friends and colleagues at work trying very deliberatly to get me off balance in discussions. I usually enjoy watching them try.

Alright, I guess we’re talking past one another. Anyway, it sounds a bit like you’re saying that people have to argue the way *you* prefer, or else “we’re no better than feminists and SJWs, relying on emotion and echo chambers.” I’m just saying people aren’t going to be impressed by that argument. They’re going to argue the way they want. They’re going to argue to win.

Anyway, the weekend’s here. I’m sure you’ll have opportunity to see a debate or two before the weekend’s up. So you can judge for yourself the best course of action for you to take. I’m not prescribing anything for you. I’m just saying that it’s kind of “anything goes” around here.

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

Anonymous wrote:

Anyway, it sounds a bit like you’re saying that people have to argue the way *you* prefer, or else “we’re no better than feminists and SJWs, relying on emotion and echo chambers.” I’m just saying people aren’t going to be impressed by that argument. They’re going to argue the way they want. They’re going to argue to win.

Yes, this is what I am saying. Likewise, I am not impressed with people using emotional arguments over rational ones. But then again, this is also my entire point. People think differently. Some are more emotional than others. Others are more rational. It is only an echochamber if one only allows one type of opinion to be heard. As long as both are tolerated, I am happy with that.

As I advocate against uniformity of opinion, it would be strange if I required others to agree with me on the original post and required them to take the same position as me also in this matter. I don’t. I am stating my opinion. But I am not requiring others to share it. In fact, that would be rather boring.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Anonymous 0]

Oh well, I’m out of here. I have to catch some shut-eye. I would suggest that you lurk a bit, monitor the interactions here, and decide for yourself if they live up to your standards.

Meantime, I would argue that the other members aren’t interested in creating an echo chamber or confirmation bias either. They just want to speak in their own voice and say what’s on their mind in their own words. You know, the whole “go your own way” thing.

Oh well, good talking at you. And welcome to the forum!

[Anonymous 38]

Confucius wrote:

What does this have to do with MGTOW?
Beware of echo chamber mentality and confirmation bias. Always think for yourself, and respect that others might think differently. If you don’t agree, make rational arguments. Don’t shame or resort to name calling. If not, we are no better than the SJW-crowd and 3rd wave feminists, but just on the other side of the spectrum. Beware of only seeking out material that enhances your confirmation bias.

Think for yourself – go Your own way also with your mind, thoughts and beliefs.

Excellent post. MGTOW manifesto stuff.

[AkhilleusParticipant 2486]

Tuna, I’ll apologize later if I’m wrong but I call it now.

Aloha means family you don't leave family behind. Who will be the next Draconarius for MGTOW? MGTOW = brothers = acceptance = belonging

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

Akhilleus wrote:

Tuna, I’ll apologize later if I’m wrong but I call it now.

You’ll have to try harder than that.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Cú ChulainnParticipant 3910]

Akhilleus wrote:

Tuna, I’ll apologize later if I’m wrong but I call it now.

QED. You proved the original point Confucius made beautifully here.

If you argue emotionally instead of rationally you deserve to be slapped like the little bitch you are.

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

I was expecting someone calling tuna to elicit an emotional response. But as I said, I am not easily offended. In particularly not when it is such a blatantly obvious attempt.

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[AkhilleusParticipant 2486]

waiting

Aloha means family you don't leave family behind. Who will be the next Draconarius for MGTOW? MGTOW = brothers = acceptance = belonging

[ConfuciusParticipant 183]

Akhilleus wrote:

waiting

For what?

"Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated."

[Cú ChulainnParticipant 3910]

For Godot

[AkhilleusParticipant 2486]

nope i don’t see Vladimir and Estragon around do you?

Aloha means family you don't leave family behind. Who will be the next Draconarius for MGTOW? MGTOW = brothers = acceptance = belonging

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