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(Shamelessly pilfered from an old guy’s post on the internet)circa 2010:
1. Although I do not believe in God, atheists can be (and usually are) as annoying as religious idiots. Keep both your beliefs and lack of beliefs to yourself, no one wants to hear it.
2. Circumcision is the worst decision a well-intended parent can make for their son. I am circumcised but I do not delude myself into believing that I am experiencing sex the way nature and evolution intended.
3. You are friend-zoned because women construe your excessive emotionality and want as feminine and needy. A woman wants to lose herself and feel secure in your masculinity. Most women are emotional and neurotic enough without having to deal with your emotional bulls~~~.
4. Never tolerate a woman’s bulls~~~. If a woman is emotional and upset, distract them, pick them up and dance, tell a story, take her for a walk. If that doesn’t work, leave her alone. If it never works, dump her. And remember, infidelity is never justifiable. A woman who uses you to rescue her, will eventually use another man to rescue her from you.
5. Emo and self-pity is narcissism disguised as depth, and this is why people resent your woe-is-me bulls~~~.
6. Contrary to popular belief, depression is not a painful experience. Depression is a numbing strategy usually developed in childhood as a way to keep you safe from your anger. An emotionally healthy person can allow himself to feel anger without reacting to it. When you numb yourself from real pain (anger), you block off the joy in your life and become depressed.
7. Cigarettes stunt emotional growth. Smoking seems fun because life at an early age is relatively easy. But look at a smoker in his/her 40s and tell me they look happy.
8. Japanese culture is not amazing. Japanese culture is oppressive and stifiling and that’s why the suicide rate is high.9. Spend time with other men. Spending time with a hunting party (camping, sports, beach, pub, etc.) creates a sense of belonging, well-being and safety in this world. It is also how we make connections.
10. The older you get, the more your market value increases. At your age women are over-valued in society. By the time you’re 30 or 40, it will be a man’s market. Don’t be in such a hurry to commit.
11. Do not have a child with a woman unless you have been with her for more than a few trouble-free years. If you have a kid with a c~~~, prepare to support a family that you will NEVER be part of.
12. Sometimes your dick knows things better than you do. If you can’t get it up for a particular women, that is your subconscious telling you that she is not right for you.
13. Never marry a woman unless she loves you more than you love her.
14. Your impending sense of doom is nothing but emotional residue, there is nothing wrong. Even when something is wrong, nothing is wrong. You deal with problems as they arise, no big deal.
15. Honor is a male abstraction, don’t expect women to understand.
Lust for comfort suffocates the soul
RE: “10. The older you get, the more your market value increases. At your age women are over-valued in society. By the time you’re 30 or 40, it will be a man’s market. Don’t be in such a hurry to commit.”
I hear this all the time, but I haven’t seen it in my own experience. I’m 50, and the dynamics that I see between men and women are almost exactly what I see among those 20 years younger. Even at 50, women feel entitled, and they still (in most cases) have enough men in pursuit of them that they can chose among them and exploit them shamelessly.
So here is my advice from an Old Man: don’t expect women to change as you grow older, because they won’t. Don’t expect relations between men and women to change as they grown older, because they won’t. Don’t expect people (i.e., demanding, bitchy, bossy women) to soften with age, because they won’t. If you’re going to be a man going his own way, expect to do so from cradle to grave.
This is excellent VileNord! And @braininavat, I heartily agree with you. Women stop maturing when they start menstruating. That’s why there is such a think as Twilight Moms. You don’t see grown men lining up and screaming for Salena Gomez, but Justin Beiber concerts are filled to the hilt with expired groupy cougars.
My point made above was just underlined for me again today. I went to breakfast with my former second wife. She told me about how she broke up with her current boyfriend, and she immediately re-wrote her OK Cupid profile and before the end of the day had several new responses. She is now corresponding with a man less than half her age. if a woman is even reasonably attractive, she can take her pick and indulge her hypergamous instincts well into middle age. The opportunities to use men for their resources just keep coming along.
On the other hand, women who let themselves go (and the long “don’t marry” piece on this site gives lots of examples of this) probably couldn’t get a date if they offered to pay for the dinner.
A second divorce. Wow. Curious to know why you might go to breakfast with her, especially if she has a boyfriend? But even more importantly, what she is doing telling you about her escapades as if she is proud of them after a divorce with you? You are a very tolerant man. I wouldn’t even be capable of that. (but quite I like that about myself).
If I even get a sniff that a girlfriend has a dating profile or is in touch with an EX, she’s out. No exceptions.
I am well aware of the whole “man waiting in the wings” strategy……. and I’d refuse to be the guy she calls Justin.
That’s his name: “Justin Case”.
Justin Case it doesn’t work out with the guy she is sleeping with.
Justin Case she gets fat.
Justin Case she needs a date on national holidays.
….you get the idea.But I think women who date much younger men are kidding themselves and will tell themselves all kinds of lies. Younger men actually warm up with older women. These women take it as a “compliment” when a younger guy wants to have sex with her… but in reality, there is just no work involved. One drink and she’s off to the races.
Please know, I am aware how utterly insensitive that might sound to you about your ex wife. But perhaps you will see the value in it, and understand I only have good well-meaning intentions. If there is one thing we created the forum for, it’s so that guys can have some empathy since much of the world just doesn’t offer any. But I’m fascinated by your situation, as if one divorce wasn’t already enough.
Especially interesting was your comment about how you didn’t see a very obvious shift in dynamics when you got older. As soon as I hit 32, I was up to my neck in 19-21 year olds which NEVER happened prior. Even more interesting, the women I knew at 19 won’t stop calling and emailing. In fact, my SMV follows Rational Male’s “SMV” curve to an exact T… and the women I knew (know) match it too.
When I first saw it, it was like nature had unfolded a hidden secret I was semi-aware of, but couldn’t quite place.
Thanks very much for joining and making an introduction. Very happy to welcome you.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.@braininavat I don’t think the “old man” was implying that women become less devious with age. I understood it as Mr. MGTOW ↑above↑ put it; that women remain the same creature over time, while men grow in both maturity and status. This is of course assuming that as a man, you make a concerted effort to grow. We all know men who simply don’t.
Lust for comfort suffocates the soul
This video on the subject was a REALLY great listen for me, and can have a profound effect on a guys’ understanding of how it all works. Meaning “nature”. Leykis also did 2 bits on “aging” which were deleted by YouTube…and I am personally on a crusade to find them, including the author who’s you tube channel mysteriously vanished. They were an extension on this fascinating subject and if ANY guy under 21 heard it he would be RELIEVED instead of beating himself up over not being able to get a girlfriend when he is 17. I remembered thinking, “dammit, EVERY guy needs to hear this”. And I WILL find it. It’s just a matter of time.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.No doubt it sounds pretty strange that I would go to breakfast with a former wife. It is a long and complicated story. Here’s the short version: “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
RE: “A second divorce.” I made lots of mistakes.
RE: “I am aware how utterly insensitive that might sound” Not at all. I don’t disagree with what you’ve said. Well, maybe I would qualify it, but in the main I don’t disagree. Older women fool themselves about the younger men who want a booty call, but they get a benefit out of it too: sex with a young, physically fit, and attractive man. Thus you could call the cougar relationship a win-win, no matter how much the parties deceive themselves and others.
RE: “Especially interesting was your comment about how you didn’t see a very obvious shift in dynamics when you got older. As soon as I hit 32, I was up to my neck in 19-21 year olds which NEVER happened prior.” In the sexual free marketplace, there will be winners and losers. Apparently, I am not among the winners. I have never (not once in my life) been “up to my neck in 19-21 year olds.” Perhaps at 32 one still seems young enough to be attractive, but old enough to potentially have resources.
The larger lesson here is very simple: different people have different experiences, which entails that different people have different experiences of the sexual free marketplace. Some (men and women) get as much or more than they want. Some get none (hence TFL). These experiences are at the far margins of the bell curve. Most are in the middle of the bell curve and they have mixed experiences. It would be relatively easy to break it down more.
You can find this diversity among MGTOWs. Spetsnaz in his videos mentions more than once that he gets plenty of female attention (he even lists the factors involved). Others say similar things. On the other hand, in some MGTOW videos one can detect an implicit TFL narrative in the background. Most men have (or have had, if they have decided they are finished) middling experiences with women, which often manifests itself as cycles of feast and famine.
The same bell curve will tell us that a few men will get a lot of attention from young women, a few will get none, and most will get some. For “young women” in the previous sentence, substitute any other demographic you like, salva veritate.
Greats point some of them really stuck out such as:
3. You are friend-zoned because women construe your excessive emotionality and want as feminine and needy. A woman wants to lose herself and feel secure in your masculinity. Most women are emotional and neurotic enough without having to deal with your emotional bulls~~~.
This is even more proof as to why I need to adopt and have bad luck with women. I have too many feminine traits that most likely make me a little too emotional and women must be able to pick up on it. It probably explains why I want to be a parent so bad at my age while most men don’t but women do. I am nowhere near as bad as a women, but I don’t feel I have to masculinity to keep a woman feeling secure all the time.
4. Never tolerate a woman’s bulls~~~. If a woman is emotional and upset, distract them, pick them up and dance, tell a story, take her for a walk. If that doesn’t work, leave her alone. If it never works, dump her. And remember, infidelity is never justifiable. A woman who uses you to rescue her, will eventually use another man to rescue her from you.
I am so guilty of this. My first girlfriends s~~~ wasn’t anything too bad, but my second girlfriend would blow everything out of proportion and think it was ok to verbally abuse me. One day we were at this fun place with games and such and she got mad because he didn’t ask her if she was hungry and was yelling at me on the drive home and refusing to answer if she wanted me to take her home, do something else, or go back to my house. I just dealt with it and ignored her, but today I would have been like “Bitch you have 2 options. You can either shut the f~~~ up or I can kick you out and leave you on the side of the free way” After she choose the first option I would have taken her home and as soon as she got out of the car said “we are done” and drive away lol.
12. Sometimes your dick knows things better than you do. If you can’t get it up for a particular women, that is your subconscious telling you that she is not right for you.
I have experienced that first hand lol.
She told me about how she broke up with her current boyfriend, and she immediately re-wrote her OK Cupid profile and before the end of the day had several new responses. She is now corresponding with a man less than half her age. if a woman is even reasonably attractive, she can take her pick and indulge her hypergamous instincts well into middle age.
My ex girlfriend uses OK cupid and met all of her boyfriends on there after dating me and I can say every single one was a loser who had some sort of problem and no father would want their daughter staying with someone like that. So rest assured that your ex is probably not with the best quality men.
“Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.” Nice one.
Relieved you’re a good sport about my query regarding spending time with your ex/second wife, but fascinating and kudos for you opening up about it.
(unaware of what TFL means… “tossing for life”?)
Like I said in a previous comment somewhere, there was a video about the horrors of marriage, and a MGTOW left the comment I won’t soon forget. He said “I used to feel bad that I was not good (or attractive) enough for most women to marry. But now I am inclined to celebrate it.”
If a woman is emotional and upset, distract them, pick them up and dance, tell a story, take her for a walk.
I used to think appeasing her with some grand gesture would work, but in the same way that a running to the crib every time the baby cries, you are effectively TRAINING her to be more of a cry-baby. So it took a few years, but I learned it was more effective to be displeased about her behavior and tell her I wasn’t impressed and wouldn’t put up with it. Then SHE would make an effort to appease me, which was a script reversal that worked(!) many times, but they would eventually get hip to my jive.
(“Wait a minute, when I start drama, he puts me in my place and I end up giving him a blow job? That’s not right.”)
Even later still, I swiftly came to the firm conclusion that outbursts and unprompted dramatic fits could all be cured with a good f~~~, and that’s basically what she is asking for. They love makeup sex. Live and learn.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.TFL is “true forced loneliness” — these are men who have wanted women in their lives, but have been totally rejected.
These are the men who lose out in the sexual free market. PUAs and alpha thugs are the winners in the sexual marketplace.
All of these men have a story to tell, and it is rarely a story that is flattering to women.
All of these roles that men play vis-à-vis women — whether friendzoned TFL guy, or a PUA who models all his behavior after what women want, or an alpha thug used by women for surrogate violence — stem from the pernicious idea that men can only be happy and fulfilled if they have women in their lives. In fact, women make things worse, not better.
Interesting. I never heard the term before. “TFL”. And it occurred to be a while ago when men practice “game” to keep a relationship or marriage going, they are, in actual fact, “alone”. Even within in their own marriage.
I think it’s wrong to believe PUAs (and thug types) are the “winners” in the sexual marketplace.
“Game” (as a learned behavior) requires that he (the man) must always be operating on a *higher plane* than she. Instead of acting and reacting NATURALLY, he must always be conscious and calculating his own responses and how he handles situations. He is constantly decoding what she means – as opposed to what she says, and he must always be aware of adjusting his reactions and interactions accordingly. When she starts drama, he must be skilled and aware of “s~~~ tests” at all times – deflecting them like the world’s best goalie. This is not a foundation for a successful partnership… because even Atlas shrugged – as all men will.
It is a “true forced loneliness” of a different kind.
And they put THEMSELVES in that position.Married men are some of the loneliest out there.
Men who suffer from “TFL” would do well to never forget this.Being a “winner” in todays’ sexual market place is akin to today’s “celebrity” status. It’s junk. It requires no real skill, talent or ability. Kim Kardashian, Nikki Minaj, Chris Brown etc. are famous examples of trash. Rhianna is famous for blowing clouds and getting beaten by her boyfriend and going back for more…. and Miley Cyrus is held up as an example of “celebrity” for sticking her tongue and twerking.. This is how a nation without REAL royalty crates “royalty” from trash. Apparently they are “singers” but neither of them can hit a high “E”.
Getting western sluts to open their legs doesn’t make a PUA a “winner”. Not by a long shot. I know several men who are naturally “successful” with women, but the word “success” in this case is the wrong word. It doesn’t require “skill” to get your wick wet, and when you do, it doesn’t make a man a success. Because sex is too cheap and easy to obtain. This is what men who “aren’t getting any” don’t seem to realize.
Hugh Grant had supermodel Elizabeth Hurley at home, and decided to get a $40 blow job from Marvin Hagler in a wig because Liz wasn’t getting the job done at home. Doesn’t make him a “winner”.
Have you seen what’s breeding out there? You have very well put-together intelligent and educated people thinking VERY carefully about even having ONE child. But then countless single mothers are popping out a dozen bastard spawn just to collect more food stamps.
Only in a world this s~~~ty could any man think he is a “loser” for not getting any trim.
It’s rather infuriating to watch men beat themselves up over this. They are much too hard on themselves.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.I only recently learned the acronym TFL when several MGTOW bloggers used it, especially following the Eliot Rodgers killings. Eliot Rodgers was TFL without knowing it (in addition to being mentally ill).
IF we quantify success in the sexual free market in terms of numbers of sexual encounters, THEN, by definition, those with no sexual encounters are the losers in this market, while those with the greater number of sexual encounters are the winners. That’s the definition I was assuming. If you abandon this assumption, then the rest collapses. And, of course, we know that it is too simple to define sexual success in terms of numbers of sexual encounters. Most men want to maximize their number of sexual encounters with young and attractive women, so that a large number of sexual encounters with the same, older, and unattractive partner would not even qualify as sexual success.
It is certainly true that I was never more alone than when I was married; many MGTOWs have commented on the isolation of married men, and I have experienced it myself. And as you note, PUAs are desperately lonely in a different way. (Many TFL men are attracted to game because of the promise of relief from their loneliness, but they remain lonely nevertheless.) There have even been some sociological studies that have been written on couples being “intimate strangers,” and this applies a fortiori to PUAs and their contrived encounters.
But worse than the loneliness is the loss of freedom. As you wrote above, the PUA has to always be monitoring himself to make sure he sends out the “right” signals to women. You can’t be yourself this way. After my disastrous relationships with women I, like many men, asked what went wrong, and for a while was interested in game and the PUA community. This seemed to be the key, whereas my previous efforts had been spectacular only in their failure. But I had a moment of reckoning when I was reading some PUA material and it offered the advice to NEVER question a woman’s ideas. Right there I knew that this would never work for me. If I can’t engage in a rational exchange over ideas I may as well not even be alive, so at that point my interest in game and PUA techniques vanished.
I completely agree with you that the celebrities of mass culture are manufactured royalty for societies without traditional royalty.
Certainly we need to define success so that it does not hinge upon number of sexual partners, but in the extremely narrow sense of success in the sexual marketplace, this is how success has in fact been defined. This is a descriptive account of a certain narrow definition of success. We are free to formulate our own prescriptive account of what success ought to be. Stardusk has treated this question several times in videos like “male success beyond the worker drone model” (or something like that). This is another extremely narrow definition of success: getting a good job, rising up in the dominance hierarchy, and bringing home ever more money, so that one can buy a new house and a new car and send your children to the best universities. This model of “success” has as many problems as the definition of success in terms of number of sexual partners.
As much as we might be able to agree that these models of success fall short, still it is important to confront directly the fact for some men, “sex is too cheap and easy to obtain,” while for others it is virtually unobtainable. Similarly, some men easily rise up the dominance hierarchy and earn more money, while many fall behind and cannot succeed in this arena despite their sincere efforts. In frankly recognizing these limited definitions of success, we are in no respect obligated to affirm their desirability.
It is, I agree, difficult to see men beating themselves up over not getting pussy. This is where MGTOW comes in. The more the word spreads, the more the ideas get out there, the more alternative models of success are presented, the more men will see that their success in life need not be defined in terms of pussy, money, or any other commodity. And this is not unique to MGTOW, but is a classic theme of literature. Consider, for example, The Razor’s Edge, which was MGTOW before there was anything like MGTOW, and countless other stories of men who discovered that there are more important things in life than chasing women or getting that big promotion and a corner office with a view.
Wish I knew more people like you IRL (in real life). In fact, the day I am at a coffee shop or out enjoying a beer and I strike up a similar conversation with another bloke who says “have you ever heard of MGTOW?” will be a tremendous day. I won’t tell him I’m the dotcom, but I will surely look him in the eye, shake his hand firmly and offer to buy a round. Plus shots.
After I clicked “submit” I silently kicked myself for not adding my thoughts on why the word “success ” is used and how it is RIGHT – realizing I only mentioned why it was wrong…. and that sex can be ordered by phone like pizza for less money, trouble, effort, time and investment than any woman would have us believe. That chick will come to HIS house, exactly WHEN he wants, to give him exactly WHAT he wants, and she’s not going home until HE is completely satisfied. How many whore dates, whore girlfriends and whore wives are THAT interested in getting a man off – his way – for all the investment they expect him to make in her?
(I think we both know the Manswer to that)
And because it’s SO AFFORDABLE and AVAILABLE to any man anywhere, there is NO NEED for Elliot Rodgers or TFLs to pick up a gun at any time, or believe they are “less of a man” when arcing their globs into a Kleenex. This is why I am so passionately p~~~ed when I see a 21 year old virgin think it’s not gonna get better for him. He just HAS NO IDEA.
Elliot Rogers should have been told “As long as you are stroking your own pole, your fantasies will ALWAYS go exactly the way you want them to. You can’t say that about a girlfriend or wife.”
This would have saved lives.
I would have to agree to every sentence of your elaboration. And I am compelled to add, “success” (with women) is the right word to use when a man accepts the reality of the gender war:
1. It’s WAR. (truly)
2. Men want sex in exchange for as little cost as possible.
3. Women want commitment. constant attention and resources in exchange for as little sex as possible.• The gold diggers who dupe a dumb shuck into White Knighting , signing a marriage contract and buying dinners and a ring in exchange for no sex are the FEMALE “winners”.
• The PUAs who know saying “Hello I’m a doctor” (and the thugs who know treating her like s~~~) means she is 10,000x more likely to peel her panties off are the MALE “winners”.That’s what they mean by “success”. I get it. But is it? The golddigger only has a finite amount of time to have a chance of “winning”. After that, she is doomed to taking only what she can get. The fact that there are younger men willing to line up for your ex-wife isn’t really a “win” for her. It’s a win for the GUYS. (I really don’t intend to disrespect, it’s JUST an example in hopes to perhaps annihilate your idea that she has somehow “come out on top” or that she is “winning” and you are not).
Men have a biological need for sex, like we need to take a p~~~.
When you really gotta go… do you go around looking for the prettiest (or best) bathroom?
No. You pull into the nearest greasy gas station to get the job done. And this can even be MORE satisfying.The urinal doesn’t get to think “I am the best urinal” simply because a thousand truckers use it every day.
It’s still just a urinal.No, I am not impugning that your second ex-wife is a urinal. But to think she has “choices” and is enjoying all this “success” is really not true, because the men choose HER for their own needs. If they weren’t willing and didn’t have the “need”, nothing would happen. PUA’s are likewise not actually “winners” because if you ask a man with 500 notch counts if this made him “happy” the answer would almost certainly be “NO”. The more experience he has, the more GUARANTEED it is that he will be disenchanted. This is where the dubious flirtation with the PUA concepts are always short lived. I’ve been there too, and downloaded a dozen David DeAngelos videos and watched them back to back thinking more poon was the definition of “success”. He even used the word “success” a thousand times in his newsletters.
Then that fraud mass-emailed everyone on his list and announced that he was getting married and withdrew his entire philosophy – publicly. This man had amassed multi-million dollars and the BEST he could do was a man-jawed tranny who actually proposed to HIM! That’s not “success”. Success would be to go out there and take your pick… without signing a life contract in the state of California which is tantamount to financial (and actual physical) suicide. She now OWNS him.
So even the “successes” are not SUCCESSFUL. They are kidding themselves.
As a man, I can consider myself a success … simply because I have never been divorced. I don’t pay alimony or child support and no woman ever took anything from me that I didn’t willingly GIVE her. And no woman ever will. That is a “success” in itself, because I successfully identified the wrong women before it cost me my fortune, future or life. Escaping the noose is success in itself today. Its a greater success than getting laid. The only reason I don’t have children is because I was SO FOCUSSED on it. It took greater skill, effort and willpower NOT to be hanged, enslaved or destroyed than it did to get laid. That’s not bulls~~~.
Getting laid is EASIER than staying free!
And that’s why when they equate notch counts with “success”, I know they haven’t really thought it through very carefully.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Agreed that getting laid is much easier than remaining free. Retaining one’s freedom is among the most difficult challenges of life, when everything conspires to box us into a situation in which we lose our autonomy. So kudos to you for having fought the good fight to hang onto what freedom you have. I am very sympathetic to defining success in life in terms of the retention of one’s freedom, and the next step beyond successfully avoiding the noose and losing one’s freedom is the active exercise of individual freedom in making of one’s life whatever it is that one wants to make of it. To define success exclusively in terms of avoiding the deprivation of one’s freedom is limiting, and casts freedom in a negative light. The exercise of freedom in constructing a life worth having goes beyond this to define personal autonomy in terms of the use one makes of one’s freedom.
It is extraordinarily difficult today to exercise one’s freedom as one would like. In addition to the honey traps, the unfreedom of relationships and marriage, the entrapment into paying alimony and support, there are countless ways in which the established institutions of society chip away at our freedom and seek to limit or control us. The full exercise of freedom places upon us the moral obligation to envision and then to realize a social order in which individuals who want to give full reign to their freedom are able to do so — an admittedly careful formulation, like the last lines in the final Matrix film, when the architect promises that those who want to be free will be freed.
Many people have a very strong need to have their lives boxed in by strong institutions that control everything they do. Such individuals do not desire the exercise of their freedom, and, if given their freedom, would be unhappy and would find a way to bring themselves under some kind of institutional parameters. I wish them happiness within their voluntary servitude, but I do not wish that the freedom-averse institutions constructed by and for such individuals will have a hold on my life.
With this in mind, I suggest that the first level of MGTOW success is the retention of one’s freedom, the second level of MGTOW success is the exercise of that freedom, and the third level of MGTOW success is the creation of a social order that fosters individual freedom for those who want it. This is an ambitious way to define success, but an ambitious idea is a good thing in so far as it gives us something to strive for and a vision for the future to which we can point as evidence that men going their own way aren’t just checking out and abandoning any contribution to the greater good.
What I have written above is closely related to what Stardusk recently spoke about in “The Chimeras of Meaning”:
While I agree in the main with what Stardusk says in this video, I think that a more robust response to the charge of nihilism needs to be made, and that the social project of retaining, exercising, and expanding freedom is one way to do this. Even if we abandon past doctrines of meaning that we now know to be either misleading, fallacious, or harmful, this does not only leave us with our personally constructed meanings, values, and purposes. We can go on to construct meanings and purposes that have the assent of a voluntary community — not imposing freedom in the disturbing way that Rousseau said the men would be forced to be free — but constructing a community of individuals who opt into freedom because that is what they want for themselves and for the people they care about.
I have not responded to several interesting points that you made in your last reply, but I hope to return to this and write a little more as I have time.
Really enjoyable thread to read
I am no TFL as stated above but as I said in my intro I have always viewed women as a massive prize which has led to me downgrading myself and basically being a loser. This website is a massive eye opener for sure and it would help a lot more people if they came here to read through it
@ Jim01
I went through the same thing. My learning curve was very slow, and it cost be dearly. That it one reason I try to make a contribution to spreading the word. As other men have said, if just one man saves himself the grief of having a woman in his life, then the effort is worth it.
wonko noticed that there is a fair amount of whimpering on this website with men tending their wounds (including wonko?) Lotsa guys had their hearts crushed by one woman and some even twice by a second who was “not like that.” wonko learned his lesson fairly quickly with only one she devil but then wonko’s grew up with a sister that could flatten him with one punch which helped him achieve early “understanding”.
Yet wonko did make the BIG mistake. What surprised wonko the most, was that the more he came to know her the less wonko was able to “stay in love with her”. It was bait and switch. Her mystique vanished. When wonko lifted the wedding veil that exciting creature he married began to look like his two fisted ornery sister. Yikes! Fortunately, she didn’t take much time to decide that wonko was not the big fish she deserved so she threw him back. Catch and release. Hooray! wonko did not repeat that mistake. wonko learned fast.
So wonko’s advice: She is just simply human like everyone else with her good traits and problems too, lotsa problems. But that mystique IS gonna wear off so the question is how much do you really want to “be with family” and in particular a women very much like your sister or whoever woman that clobbered you when you were growing up? How much of your life from now forward do you want to spend watching after her, caring for her, WORKING AT A JOB for her, in order to acquire, entertain, hold onto, “be with” one of these sisters that produces family and all the associated complications? How much do you want “in your space” now and forever her and her children, teenagers, cousins, family, dogs, clothes closets, useless knick-nacks etc?
White Knights, Nice Guys, Pick-up-artists (PUA), and Husbands all want to “be with” women in one way or another and are willing to pay the price; there is always a big price. They have nothing else better to do. They are bored by themselves. Attending, pursuing, women is their entertainment. It is the best they can do with their time. In the beginning they all think that the rewards are worth the effort and the risk – to live with, pet, and enjoy the company of the tigress.
But wonko reminds him no matter how much he can imagine he wants to be with her now- sex, companionship, growing old together..etc – she will want much much more from him now and later. All of his attention, care, money, efforts. She will even want his ambitions to be centered around her, everything he has and may ever have, for her, for her children, for her family.
wonko’s advice is don’t go for the bait and switch. That “lipstick on a sister” can do just fine on her own. Womankind had their chance but they took the bridle off and pushed wonko outside. Now wonko is free. So do as wonko does when she returns after being thrown by the bad stallion looking for a real “man” to saddle up to do her chores for her; he sneaks off. He hides until she goes away. Then he goes back to eating snacks. Playing on the computer. Riding his bike. And generally having a great time.
YouTube song title by Bobby Bare – Pamela Brown
enjoy wonko.I don’t know if that’s true. Plenty of contributions here have seemed more upbeat and positive in their energy – when you read the intros. It isn’t “whimpering” when a man points out what a woman actually DOES. Calling it “whimpering” is like blaming the child when the mother drops it on its head. Personally I am rather delighted that I came to learn this before I was cuckholded, dragged through inexpensive divorce and sentenced to paying lifetime alimony.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again , because it’s funny and completely true. Being mad at women for what they will enjoy doing to you….. is like shaking your fist at the sun for gamma rays, or blaming a kangaroo for hopping. She was born that way.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Im liking wonko’s writing style, referring to himself in the 3rd person. Clever.
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