Might not be MGTOW anymore

[GargamelSpectator 29101]

Or shall I stick with the “British Spotted Tabby”?

(10 years of MGTOW forum participation will turn me into a cat expert)

In July of 2018, this honey pot forum was sold out to an unidentified NPC sock puppet and troll organization. Most independent thinkers and writers migrated to other MGTOW forums as a result of the never-ending infighting and deliberate trouble starting caused by members who were given "carte blanche" by the admin to do whatever they want. Before my departure, I only left a few thousand cat pics here to comfort and ridicule the feminist owners who now run this place. Their background agenda is to make MGTOW look like a club of losers the public eye. And during the course of 2019, they actually managed to destroy almost all other MGTOW venues as well. Here is the truth about "theindependentman.org" aka "TIM" which was created as an extended workbench to further divide the community. When you register, they install a spyware Zombie cookie on your browser that does all kinds of things the user does not know of: http://www.filedropper.com/essay-on-the-removal-of-malware-cookies-used-by-tim

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

Rock,
maybe a year or two ago, a married guy came here and asserted that just because he was married didn’t mean he couldn’t still be mgtow. He had a couple of kids and by his report was in a stable happy family. He maintained that even though he was married, he could be, and was a mgtow like any of the rest of us.

My response to him at the time was to point out to him that his children were not his, and that if he didn’t believe me, he could challenge his wife to ownership determination of them, and she and the courts would show him very quickly who actually had ownership of those children. I also pointed out that this was also true of his home, most of his property and assets as well as a substantial amount of his future earnings, depending on his state of residency. Last, I pointed out that he could not take off to Tibet for 3 or 4 months because even if he had money and time off from work, because there were now other people (wife, kids, courts) who had veto power over his decisions about what he could do with that time that he thought was ‘his’.

I reminded him that his rights of free speech, gun ownership, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, presumption of innocence until proven guilty… were all just transient privileges that the new owner of his time, children and property could rescind with a phone call at any time she chose, for any reason she chose, or for no reason at all.

So I finished that post by asking him this question: If he wanted to identify himself as a man going his own way, what was it exactly that he thought he had left that was still his own? His home, children, assets, future earnings, time, and legal rights were all under the ownership control of another person who had the full weight of the American court system to enforce that ownership. In fact, in another post somewhere on this site, it was pointed out that in some places, a married man intent on having a vasectomy cannot do so without the consent of his wife. His b~~~~ are literally no longer his own to do with as he chose. Is there really anything left that CAN be taken from married man that he has not already lost by signing that contract?

I don’t write all this here to criticize what you’ve written are your goals. Before I completely understood the price, they were my goals too. Being on a team is better than being alone. I agree. And it would be great if it were possible to have the emotional connection you seem to have described with a team mate I could trust. But realistically, I understand that the harder I pursue that, the more it will cost me. And the hardest that I can possibly pursue that goal is to get married.

If you understand the costs, you probably aren’t interested in getting married. More likely, you are just interested in getting what interaction you can at whatever you believe to be a more reasonable exchange. just understand that if she doesn’t have you in the position of husband, then she knows that there is still something left on the table to be had from the relationship with you. She will have friends and female relatives in the hive who have husbands from whom they’ve taken everything noted above. And neither she, or those other hive members, will ever stop comparing you to them, and encouraging her to demand or take more…until what she has taken from you is on par with what other members of her hive have taken from their men.

If you are dating her, she will eventually want to move in. Then, she will eventually want to get married. Then, she will eventually want to have kids. And then, she will eventually want you out of the house…

If you are determined to proceed, then my advice is to get what you can. But keep a close eye and a tight grip on what’s yours. Because not everyone agrees that those things are yours…

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[GargamelSpectator 29101]

BrainPilot wrote:

Then, she will eventually want to have kids. And then, she will eventually want you out of the house…

And move her 27 cats in…

In July of 2018, this honey pot forum was sold out to an unidentified NPC sock puppet and troll organization. Most independent thinkers and writers migrated to other MGTOW forums as a result of the never-ending infighting and deliberate trouble starting caused by members who were given "carte blanche" by the admin to do whatever they want. Before my departure, I only left a few thousand cat pics here to comfort and ridicule the feminist owners who now run this place. Their background agenda is to make MGTOW look like a club of losers the public eye. And during the course of 2019, they actually managed to destroy almost all other MGTOW venues as well. Here is the truth about "theindependentman.org" aka "TIM" which was created as an extended workbench to further divide the community. When you register, they install a spyware Zombie cookie on your browser that does all kinds of things the user does not know of: http://www.filedropper.com/essay-on-the-removal-of-malware-cookies-used-by-tim

[Anonymous 3]

I knew this would happen since our last interaction whatever months ago in one of your numerous threads about, in your words, your inadequacy in dealing with women. I didn’t want to say it out right then because I really really hoped that you would overcome it. Once you disappeared from the forums, I knew this was going to be it.

Whether or not you are MGTOW is irrelevant. You are just stupid. And I will call you this because you have spent significant amount of time here, reading and talking with other posters, absorbing all the knowledge as you could, there are no excuses now.

[Anonymous 1]

alone: biology screams at you all day. “maybe it would be nice to be around a girl?”
in a relationship: “ffs why can’t I just speak my mind, why does she whine about everything? why can’t I tell her to go away so I can do what I actually want to do”

[GargamelSpectator 29101]

Gargamel wrote:

BrainPilot wrote:

Then, she will eventually want to have kids. And then, she will eventually want you out of the house…

And move her 27 cats in…

Her 27 cats and her 27 chads…

In July of 2018, this honey pot forum was sold out to an unidentified NPC sock puppet and troll organization. Most independent thinkers and writers migrated to other MGTOW forums as a result of the never-ending infighting and deliberate trouble starting caused by members who were given "carte blanche" by the admin to do whatever they want. Before my departure, I only left a few thousand cat pics here to comfort and ridicule the feminist owners who now run this place. Their background agenda is to make MGTOW look like a club of losers the public eye. And during the course of 2019, they actually managed to destroy almost all other MGTOW venues as well. Here is the truth about "theindependentman.org" aka "TIM" which was created as an extended workbench to further divide the community. When you register, they install a spyware Zombie cookie on your browser that does all kinds of things the user does not know of: http://www.filedropper.com/essay-on-the-removal-of-malware-cookies-used-by-tim

[QuellParticipant 2538]

I understand where Rachmaninoff is coming from; in fact we all understand the emotional aspect where he is at on his journey. Nobody should knock him for taking action in his own life.

It can be commended that he pulled himself out of his rut and found the path to exercise and employment. He is now riding a wave of confidence which comes with achievement.

However, what our dear boy lacks is wisdom. Not a knock at Rachmaninoff as I’ve been there too. He associates small personal gains with long-term emotional happiness. The man is running after the dangling carrot in hopes of one day catching it. And he just may catch that carrot (woman) however that carrot, no matter how tasty, will always go bad given enough time. That is the thing with happiness once you have it you will always need more of it to fill your cup.

It takes true wisdom to understand momentum. One can equate success with women much like a company or product life-cycle. Sure it can be exciting to ride the wave up however what goes up always comes back down. Unlike a company in decline there is no golden parachute where you can cash out at the end. A woman will always need to be attracted to you and once your attraction to her has ended you are dead in the water. It is your job to keep this woman happy, which is can not be done.

I wish the best for Rachmaninoff and I hope he pops in once in awhile to say hello. Just remember that all humans have a “happy cup of life” which will always need to be replenished. The best path is acceptance, maintenance of platonic relationships for some emotional bonding and keeping one’s own interests as a top priority. True inner peace is acceptance of the wisdom from those who have come before us and learning to adapt as best as possible.

[BraceParticipant 467]

may I add something.
if your so hellbent to find a women and to get married do it in a country where their divorce laws aren’t so biased and the worst case scenario for you would be just emotional and not financial.

of course u’ll have to move to where she lives, as to not extract her from her culture, if you take her to a western country she’ll just be “infected” with the “feminist c~~~” virus and u won’t be gaining anything.

now if your going to get settle with a women from a western nation. u might be the most awesome and great guy alive but there are things you can’t really control that practically run your relationship in the west.

if she as much as call the police on u claiming domestic abuse your done!. you don’t even need to be married to her.

in alot of other places in the world, here included if she do such thing the police will tell her to show proof. and her reputation will be ruined for trying to defame a good standing male citizen who has no record what so ever.

it’s a rigged game over there where as a guy u lose no matter how good you play it. “the house always wins”

[OzymandiasParticipant 10]

OP is talking some real fantasy s~~~. Those billions you talk about. Yeah they are all wired exactly the same. They have physiological s~~~ that goes on that they have no control of. Signing up for this game (oh it is a game) is almost guaranteed to end badly for you.

P.S.more of those chicks you are hitting on think you are creep on a whole other level like stage five clinger status type creep. For real you need help well beyond “I will find this chick that accepts me for me” type approach. Chances are you dress like a total moron. That’s not a judgment call but something tells me I’m right. You are competing for these chicks and that approach should carry through to all manner of your life. Dress really well. Separate yourself from your competition by attributes that women notice. Become a proper gentleman. Really research that s~~~. Open doors then spark the conversation. Say please and thank you. Tip in the clubs and bars and develop a rep.
You don’t have to believe me, but cold calling these chicks the way you describe is creeping out 9 out of 10 and that last one is calling the cops. Its cool though, continue this maddening search for the elusive chick meanwhile you’re in the p~~~er and I am getting her number. Sometimes I get to talk to these chicks about guys like you while at the bar. We laugh about your douchebaggery and then I take em home and bang em.

[RockmaninoffParticipant 1641]

Anonymous wrote:

Just take this piece of advice: The honeymoon phase ALWAYS ends after a while. Eventually, you end up having to do s~~~ together like hang out with her friends, go to family events, etc. Your plans and her plans now have to work around each other. The longer you stay together, the more the romance wears off, and the more dealing with a relationship becomes like a chore.

I’ll try to have enough insight to know when a relationship has run its course.

That being said, no one is perfect. There are times when my best friends hurt me or fall below my expectations. But they provide me with so much value with their companionship, advice, warmth that it would be crazy for me to cut them out of my life for imperfections.

Women have imperfections too. My girlfriend used to snap at me and be bitchy at times. It was bad behavior, but she was generally a very lovely person, and to dump her because of that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

OldBill wrote:

Rocky’s plan will fail because it depends on the fidelity of a woman.

The only plan I have is to find women whom I can tolerate and who can tolerate me and then cherish them for as long as the relationship can last.

I don’t ever expect anyone to sacrifice his or her self-interest for my own. I’m fully aware male-female relationships are not meant to last forever, and to try to force them to last (e.g., cohabitation, marriage) is just asking for trouble.

OldBill wrote:

The thief answers “Who know what will happen in a year? I may die, the king may die, or the horse may die. And maybe the horse will learn to sing.”

Rocky is hoping the horse will learn to sing. It’s a futile hope, but also a very human one.

And even if none of that happens, the prisoner gets one more year of life. That is priceless.

As I said, many men are looking for the Disneyesque happily ever-after endings. When reality shows them that that’s impossible, due to both nature, the legal system, and society, they conclude that happiness from relationships is impossible.

So yes, if you define happiness as marrying, having kids, growing old together and living happily ever after, than to hope for that is futile. But if you set your expectations a bit more realistic, as I believe I have, it’s not impossible. In fact, I know it’s not impossible, because I’ve had an excellent relationship before, where not only did nothing life-shatteringly bad happened, but my life is permanently enriched because of it.

BrainPilot wrote:

If you are dating her, she will eventually want to move in. Then, she will eventually want to get married. Then, she will eventually want to have kids. And then, she will eventually want you out of the house…

As a relationship progresses, people change and expectations change. More often than not those differences are irreconcilable. I won’t sacrifice myself to the interests of a woman, nor do I expect any woman to sacrifice her interests to me. I already know it’s a losing deal.

It is possible to think it’s possible to have a positive relationship with a woman while simultaneously thinking thinking that marriage, cohabitation, and kids are a losing deal. These are not contradictory beliefs.

". . . elle, suivant l’usage des femmes et des chats qui ne viennent pas quand on les appelle et qui viennent quand on ne les appelle pas, s’arrêta devant moi et m’adressa la parole"—Prosper Mérimée

[Anonymous 42]

BrainPilot wrote:

Rock,
maybe a year or two ago, a married guy came here and asserted that just because he was married didn’t mean he couldn’t still be mgtow. He had a couple of kids and by his report was in a stable happy family. He maintained that even though he was married, he could be, and was a mgtow like any of the rest of us.

My response to him at the time was to point out to him that his children were not his, and that if he didn’t believe me, he could challenge his wife to ownership determination of them, and she and the courts would show him very quickly who actually had ownership of those children. I also pointed out that this was also true of his home, most of his property and assets as well as a substantial amount of his future earnings, depending on his state of residency. Last, I pointed out that he could not take off to Tibet for 3 or 4 months because even if he had money and time off from work, because there were now other people (wife, kids, courts) who had veto power over his decisions about what he could do with that time that he thought was ‘his’.

I reminded him that his rights of free speech, gun ownership, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, presumption of innocence until proven guilty… were all just transient privileges that the new owner of his time, children and property could rescind with a phone call at any time she chose, for any reason she chose, or for no reason at all.

So I finished that post by asking him this question: If he wanted to identify himself as a man going his own way, what was it exactly that he thought he had left that was still his own? His home, children, assets, future earnings, time, and legal rights were all under the ownership control of another person who had the full weight of the American court system to enforce that ownership. In fact, in another post somewhere on this site, it was pointed out that in some places, a married man intent on having a vasectomy cannot do so without the consent of his wife. His b~~~~ are literally no longer his own to do with as he chose. Is there really anything left that CAN be taken from married man that he has not already lost by signing that contract?

I don’t write all this here to criticize what you’ve written are your goals. Before I completely understood the price, they were my goals too. Being on a team is better than being alone. I agree. And it would be great if it were possible to have the emotional connection you seem to have described with a team mate I could trust. But realistically, I understand that the harder I pursue that, the more it will cost me. And the hardest that I can possibly pursue that goal is to get married.

If you understand the costs, you probably aren’t interested in getting married. More likely, you are just interested in getting what interaction you can at whatever you believe to be a more reasonable exchange. just understand that if she doesn’t have you in the position of husband, then she knows that there is still something left on the table to be had from the relationship with you. She will have friends and female relatives in the hive who have husbands from whom they’ve taken everything noted above. And neither she, or those other hive members, will ever stop comparing you to them, and encouraging her to demand or take more…until what she has taken from you is on par with what other members of her hive have taken from their men.

If you are dating her, she will eventually want to move in. Then, she will eventually want to get married. Then, she will eventually want to have kids. And then, she will eventually want you out of the house…

If you are determined to proceed, then my advice is to get what you can. But keep a close eye and a tight grip on what’s yours. Because not everyone agrees that those things are yours…

[SamsquanchParticipant 4226]

It is possible to think it’s possible to have a positive relationship with a woman while simultaneously thinking thinking that marriage, cohabitation, and kids are a losing deal. These are not contradictory beliefs.

Of course it’s not contradictory, however you’re dealing with women who have a different logical base than men do. If you can find a woman who is willing to spend time with you, just out of the goodness of hear heart, and she doesn’t want your money, kids, or a house, car, etc. then you brother will have found a unicorn.

Personally, in over 17 years of chasing, I haven’t found one that would spend time with me without at least having some kind of verbal commitment. Not a single one would willingly spend time with me, just to enjoy each other’s company. Yea, for the first couple of months everything was ok, and it seemed like they just wanted to enjoy my company, but it usually only takes a few months (sometimes sooner) before they start analyzing the relationship and thinking “What’s in this for me?”

“What’s in it for me?” Will happen with every romantic relationship you become involved in. So at that point, you either dump her, or continue the relationship. But since you don’t want to marry or cohabitate, what is the point in starting a relationship with a woman in the first place? Seems to me like the time chasing after them could be better spent at the gym, or studying something.

Either way just be careful, very careful. You don’t want to get trapped, you don’t want an 18 year sentence.

[BrainPilotParticipant 7640]

Rock,
Let’s imagine that relationships with women are a deep pit with a steeply slanted slope. At the bottom of that pit are those poor bastards who have slid/fallen so far down into it that they literally do not own their own b~~~~ anymore. At the top, and several steps back from the edge, are the hardcore mgtow. They aren’t really at risk of slipping and falling in at all. They know exactly where to stand.

Then, there are an enormous number of guys like you who peer in from the edge and decide that they want to go in, but only part way. They, like you, have a line that they have decided within themselves that they will not descend beyond. They know that as they descend further into that pit, the liabilities increase, and the benefits shrink. And like you, they believe that there is a line above which relationships with women have either a positive, or a break even benefit/liability ratio. So, they make a decision about this line that they will not cross. And like you, they believe that this decision is theirs to make.

They believe this because they believe that their lives are their own to live and so then that their life decisions are their own to make. If reality accurately reflected this, all men would be happily surfing along this slope along some line that they had chosen for themselves, and mgtow probably wouldn’t even exist. But this is not the end of the story, because not everyone shares that belief about your life and your decisions being yours.

Women populate this pit, and they believe they own it. For all intents and purposes, they do. Women all along the slope of this pit have a different belief system from yours. In her mind, once you step even a short way in, and get the benefit of her time, affection, attention, or anything else for that matter, then you OWE her something. In her mind, she has provided you with something of value and now you OWE her for it. Never mind that you may have provided her withe the same amount of time, attention and affection. Coming from a man, that’s not worth much. The only payment that will satisfy this perceived debt to her is for you to take another step further down into the pit… where you will get some (diminishing) benefit, and acquire an (expanded) debt.

This is what I meant when I wrote that a girlfriend will want to move in, and then will want to get married, and then will want a house, kids etc. You can theoretically say ‘no’ to any of that. So, I probably should have explained better: A girlfriend believes that she has provided you with the benefit of a girlfriend, and so now you OWE her the wedding. When you marry her, she will perceive that you OWE her children, a house etc. These perceived debts can only be satisfied by another step further… It ends at the bottom when you have nothing left to take, but set that aside for now.

For now, lets get back to our strategy of stopping somewhere along the descent into this pit. If you stop, you will have an unpaid debt to her for benefits already received. You may not perceive this debt, but nobody much gives a s~~~ what you perceive here. She perceives the debt, and she has the full agreement of her family, female friends, the media, the court, legislative and police branches of government. Hell, she even has the agreement from all those other men further along down the slope from you.

In the mass perception of all of this, you will have ‘wasted’ her time, ‘stolen’ her affection, ‘cheated’ her out of something…

Now, she has a decision to make re: COLLECTIONS. Collection strategies available to women include

Camouflage, deception, manipulation, shaming, coercion, larceny, slander, threats, misrepresentation, physical assault, verbal and emotional abuse, and ultimately kidnapping.

Our society encourages, excuses, protects, and ultimately rewards every one of these collection strategies. Your belief that these decisions are yours to make, and that this assumption will be respected, is shared by a scarce few outside the pit, and virtually NO ONE within it. If you expect to take small step into this pit, derive a small benefit from it and then stop, you will need to be prepared resist every one of these strategies when they have the full weight of the government behind them.

That’s not to say it can’t be done. I did it with more success than most. But ultimately, the time and energy and effort it takes to successfully resist all these collection strategies has a cost of its own. And that cost eventually outweighs whatever small benefit was derived, regardless of wether you get dragged any further down the slope. At least, that was my experience. Your experience might be different, but mine was/is the intended experience.

I don’t deny that the bait is there. We see it as well as you do. We just wonder if you see all the different hooks in and around it as well as we do?

But if you are determined to step in and try to ‘just nibble’ on it, I’ll sincerely wish you luck. But I won’t be joining you…

Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you

[GargamelSpectator 29101]

In July of 2018, this honey pot forum was sold out to an unidentified NPC sock puppet and troll organization. Most independent thinkers and writers migrated to other MGTOW forums as a result of the never-ending infighting and deliberate trouble starting caused by members who were given "carte blanche" by the admin to do whatever they want. Before my departure, I only left a few thousand cat pics here to comfort and ridicule the feminist owners who now run this place. Their background agenda is to make MGTOW look like a club of losers the public eye. And during the course of 2019, they actually managed to destroy almost all other MGTOW venues as well. Here is the truth about "theindependentman.org" aka "TIM" which was created as an extended workbench to further divide the community. When you register, they install a spyware Zombie cookie on your browser that does all kinds of things the user does not know of: http://www.filedropper.com/essay-on-the-removal-of-malware-cookies-used-by-tim

[DanceMyOwnWayParticipant 2096]

Good luck brother. I’ve known about three decent women in 20 years of relationships, dating, screwing etc. Your post sounded more like a pseudo positive PUA mind set to me. It’s naive thinking and you WILL get burnt. However that seems to be the only way some of us learn. NAWALTS DO NOT EXIST. Women can be fun, keep you warm at night, make you feel a million bucks and burn you with scars that never truly heal. Those scars however will be wisdom. Take good care, have fun out there and we will see you again, eventually…

If you fall down 7 times, get up 8

[GnosticParticipant 2491]

Rockmaninoff wrote:

That being said, no one is perfect. There are times when my best friends hurt me or fall below my expectations. But they provide me with so much value with their companionship, advice, warmth that it would be crazy for me to cut them out of my life for imperfections.

Women have imperfections too. My girlfriend used to snap at me and be bitchy at times. It was bad behavior, but she was generally a very lovely person, and to dump her because of that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It has nothing to do with who is perfect or not.

Your friends imperfection cannot hurt you.

Your girlfriend imperfection can hurt you with the backing of the government.

You don’t need to dump her yet. Just be prepare when the inevitable “I am not getting younger, lets get married” stage begin. It will happen, if you have little saving, much debts and the government give you power to trap walking wallet, you will do it too.

There is no magic in MGTOW, just recognition of the truth and logical decision how to avoid dangers. The red pill is but the truth, it is no magical potion. Do not think in this modern world men have no longer have natural enemies, men are prey to women and government.

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