Looking Back On Life…

[AutoliteParticipant]

Why I am an Antinatalist

[AutoliteParticipant]

How good are our lives?

[AutoliteParticipant]

Doug Stanhope

(thread comedic interlude)

[AutoliteParticipant]

Efilism

[Gravel PitParticipant]

i think youre kidding around at this point. Good joke, you had me convinced

Antinatalism is psuedo philosophic dude

[SpiderHerderParticipant 3767]

It’s difficult to have a philosophical discussion on a very serious topic with you Gravel because you seem to be thinking with your emotions, which is why you’re so quick to dismiss antinatalism and then assign importance to trivial events like your first kiss and frogs and sunsets. You sound like a Christian to me hahahah jk. It is also why you think that people reflecting on such serious issues are suicidal. We’re not. I mean… you’re the one who tried to kill yourself…

I’m not mad at you or anything and it won’t change anything in my life if you end up understanding what WE mean or not, I just felt like saying this. Make you face the uncomfortable truth with confidence, you frightened young man lol. hahahahahahahah

[AutoliteParticipant]

SpiderHerder wrote:

It’s difficult to have a philosophical discussion on a very serious topic with you Gravel because you seem to be thinking with your emotions, which is why you’re so quick to dismiss antinatalism and then assign importance to trivial events like your first kiss and frogs and sunsets.

We can’t expect too much. Antinatalism is an extremely touchy subject. (Thanks BTW for bringing it up). It’s a philosophy solidly rooted in irrefutable logic that is in direct opposition to the basic natural instinct to procreate. I expect very, very few people will actually ‘get-it’…

[AutoliteParticipant]

Doug Stanhope: Voice of America – ABORTION IS GREEN

Stanhope takes a more of a VHEMT angle…

[Branched offParticipant 10937]

I think this debate has gone along pretty well and I am grateful to all participants. Yes Gravel pit is reacting a bit emotionally but since I am on his isde I would like to defend this.

His emotions are working right on this. So his reaction is right and understandable.

If you want to try be “more than human” you can try but it tends to cost you -in this case it will cost you a stake in the lottery for the survival of your genes. We are naked monkeys who can think straight. Its pretty cool. But we should not forget our humanity. We are programmed to procreate, to value life, to care for the young. We are supposed to feel an emotional reaction to being told our inner nature when functioning right is wrong. Gravel pit’s arguments might be stronger with less emotion in some cases but actually the emotion is a strength itself.

The antinatalist arguments revolve around “feelings” anyway it seems to be. Life feels worse to them than non existence. The feel less joy or pleasure than they feel sadness or pain. They cannot value achievement as highly as feelings it seems. So I would say the counter feelings have a place too. Gravel pit can feel the life in him rising up to counter those arguments and that vital virile spirit is what has pushed men and mankind forward. To me he seems to have what it takes and it does take some fire. Maybe he will need to learn to control his fire. It seems it may have driven him to be a bit rash from time to time but it is an essential component required to stand up to the knocks of the world and keep swinging and unless you are lucky that is the only way you will win. You can choose not to play but if you play, then play to win.

A woman is like fire -fun to play with, can warm you through and cook your food, needs constant feeding, can burn you and consume all you own

[AutoliteParticipant]

Branched off wrote:

You can choose not to play but if you play, then play to win.

Antinatalists are saying ‘let’s not force a person into having to make that choice’. Once we exist, our desire to live (our survival instinct) will compel most of us to continue to play a losing game…

[Branched offParticipant 10937]

I think my response is why not give your kids a ticket in the lottery of life? After all if the worst happens they will only end up dead and that is no worse than not having existed and could be better if they have left issue.

If you can win and want to, then play to win. If you can’t or wont play to win, play to have fun. Homosexuals have a lot more fun than heterosexuals I think (on average). They also seem to have a lot more to spend. Celibate men too can be very wealthy and have a lot of fun. Personally I play to win but I am Ok with those who don’t. They make no competition for my children after all! and a number or homosexuals are among my very best customers. However I fail to see why there can’t be joy in life in nearly all cases.

Dying takes you to a solid zero on the net pain/ pleasure score. So no matter how bad the worst thing in life can be, you will always end up evens when you die, so its no net loss. Might come out better than even though, so its worth a punt. Pain is temporary. Achievement lasts longer.

But if it is not for you then it is not for you. You can go your own way and I will respect you. At this point in history there is duty to the human race to breed. There are enough people. But I will defend any young man who wants to give the game of life a punt and I will encourage waverers to give it a second thought before they quit on themselves. What’s the worst that can happen? -You might die and that is no net loss.

This is not a Christian position. If I had to declare myself I would say I am a pagan atheist. There is no god in the sense of omniscient creator with a plan for the world and humanity, who will unmake the world and judge the living and the dead. There are however forces of nature that are bigger than us and one can call them gods if one likes, though they do not understand let alone care. Going with “the gods” not against them is easier and more satisfying -for in the end you are the creature of nature.

A woman is like fire -fun to play with, can warm you through and cook your food, needs constant feeding, can burn you and consume all you own

[Gravel PitParticipant]

SpiderHerder wrote:

Gravel because you seem to be thinking with your emotions

If anyone is making an emotional appeal, its people saying its better, not to have been born. Seriously? Thats supposed to be an objective argument? Thats not emotional?? LOL

SpiderHerder wrote:

you’re the one who tried to kill yourself…

Im in a unique position to speak about Antinatalism because Im not motivated by faith in an afterlife or redemption or divinely inspired didactic commandments. This is all the more reason to listen to what Im telling you.

Branched is also trying to reason with you. I am a emotions on the sleeve kind of guy but I have a keen objective double side. If you remember, Im more atheist than any of you. Yall are at best, agnostics on the fence. I have made the case for why there is not God. Its not a mystery, there IS proof against it.

No one has ever truly understood the anthropomorphic trapdoor that collapses the possible existence of god, least not on this website. Apparently it takes a massive objective slant in your thinking.

More than anyone, I accept and adore the 7 million year old evolutionary tale of our origins. No one is convinced that we are animals more than me. I do not believe in anything immeasurable. Im a HARDCORE Determinist with no respect at all for delusions of FREEWILL.

And after all that, Im telling you, antinatalism is BUNK in half a dozen ways right off the bat.

Autolite wrote:

It’s a philosophy solidly rooted in irrefutable logic

buwhawahha!!! dude, that is completely wrong. those videos are wrought with comm enters saying the exact same thing I have, that FROM SQUARE ONE, the foundations of antinatalist convictions are logical fallacies!

You can’t compared nothing to nothing. If you multiply something by zero, you always come up with ZERO… not some arbitrary negative value that you mistakingly. Youre coming up with a falsepositive here guys.

The logic supporting your view is as ‘shot full of holes’ as weak ass Christian apologetics. Ive already brought them up here. YOU HAVE NOT ADEQUATELY REBUKED THEM.

Youre using values, instincts and intuitions you derived from reality, to try and make a case against reality. Its like trying to measure the left side of a circle. Just like in timedilation, the clock is only wrong with respect to some other object. You cant make claims about your time passage without referencing another person, place or thing. YOure pulling tape from nowhere.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

You can’t compare nothing to nothing. If you multiply something by zero, you always come up with ZERO… not some arbitrary negative value.

Youre using values, instincts and intuitions you derived from reality, to try and make a case against reality. Its like trying to measure the left side of a circle. Just like in timedilation, the clock is only changed with respect to some other object’s passage of time. You cant make claims about your time passage without referencing another person, place or thing. Youre pulling tape from nowhere.

DO YOU GET THAT? No one here has grappled with this massive problem with antinatalism.

Apparently this is all OVER YOUR HEAD. Hate to call you stupid. But the arguments youre using for antimatalism are EXACTLY the logical fallacy Christians use when they describe the cosmological constant and anthropic principle.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

Physicist Victor Stenger objected to the fine-tuning, and especially to theist use of fine-tuning arguments. His numerous criticisms included what he called “the wholly unwarranted assumption that only carbon-based life is possible.”[25]

The validity of fine tuning examples is sometimes questioned on the grounds that such reasoning is subjective anthropomorphism applied to natural physical constants. Critics also suggest that the fine-tuned universe assertion and the anthropic principle are essentially a tautology.[27]

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Gravel Pit wrote:

such reasoning is subjective anthropomorphism applied to natural physical constants. Critics also suggest that the fine-tuned universe assertion and the anthropic principle are essentially a tautology.[27]

They dont understand this

[Gravel PitParticipant]

“If the absence of pleasure by not coming into existence can’t be a negative then the absence of pain by not coming into existence can’t be a positive. Davids argument is flawed.” – a commenter on one of those videos

someone keen enough to see a problem like I did.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

This chart is insane.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

the fine-tuned universe assertion and the anthropic principle are essentially a tautology.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Branched off wrote:

The antinatalist arguments revolve around “feelings” anyway it seems to be. Life feels worse to them than non existence.

Thanks Branched.

Im trying to get across why the underlying premise is false but its hard…

[Gravel PitParticipant]

dont care anyway. If these dudes are convinced life is sh!t… fine. Waste of my time. theyre Too chickensh!t to kill themselves, too TAME to get out of their depressed funk. Like a planet in orbit around a black hole, no cosmic events reach them on their island. Only what can happen will.

I was reckless by my very nature, “lucky” to be so destructive that I escaped the verdicts I foolishly placed on existence. I called life valueless. I was the nihilist. I had the nerve and was compelled, involuntarily, to commit suicide in the face of such seemingly meaningless, widespread suffering as these antinatalist observe. I actually did it. I forfeited instead of continuing in that LAMENTER’S HOLE.

And that is how I reached the emotional upheaval and critical mass required to see clearly that life is a net positive. There is value in the individuals plight. There is JOY in his pain. there is beauty in his chaos. How else could we survive as animals? I have already asked this and there was no acknowledgement that the very chemicals that produce feelings of happiness are written into the DNA code, a continuous Joyfuel-Cell to keep hominids going like the energizer bunny.

That in the face of unfathomable cosmic expanses, we are here, in our bodies, experiencing an illusion of consciousness produced by electrochemical impulses in billions of synapses. And you DARE to write that off as “not worth it” … you dont even know exactly what you are, but you stand on that biological crutch that is all you have to reason with, and curse your own being. What an absurd self contradiction.

[Author]

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