Do you accept PUAs with a MGTOW spirit?

[FlamingManParticipant 9]

Hello guys,

I’m a new member here and very happy that I’ve recently discovered MGTOW.
I’m basically a PUA who was (and sometimes still is) very passionate about game. I’ve studied a lot of game courses and did also Live trainings while practicing for years in the field. Now I have to admit that there are many PUAs out there who put women on a podestal and do everything just to be accepted by them. They seek validation from women. I used to like that in some way, too. I remember how I once drove about 300 miles to meet a cute girl on a date, necletting all my other needs (just to be alone after 20 minutes because she quit the date because of bad weather and mood LOL).
During my game tranining period and my thousands and thousands of approaches something inside of me changed mentally… I became more independent and developed a lot of  self-love/ self-respect. And at the same time I lost a lot of respect for women in general. Many of the behaviours and attittudes I observed from women in the field were very dirty and unethical. For example they are very hypocratic.  Last week I was in a nightclub flirting with 2 women who seemed interested in me… I could have probably made out with one of them and take her home. During our conversations they talked proudly how they are on a  small adventurous holiday enjoying everything and how their husbands paid them everything and stayed at home. As a thank you they seemed to be ready to sleep with another man.  I have experienced a lot of their negative characteristics firsthand and a lot of the stuff I’ve read so far on this site really make sense to me. Before you develop self respect you will be literally blind and unable to see this.

Many experiences hurt me because I used to have a great amount of love for women in general. I’m still resistant to give up game altogether and somehow hope to find a quality women (because not all girls are like that). I’m open minded and don’t want to exlude positive options and outcomes. On the other hand I have to say that your movement is a masterstroke and obvious at the same time. I believe that if the MGTOW movement becomes popular enough it can crash the whole system like a card house. It will take away the power from women- which they proved they don’t really deserve and don’t know how to deal with (probably because they are not designed for it). I respect you for manning up and not being afraid to tell the truth. And you are very smart… while others support the system, wear themselves out and accelerate a downwards spirale… you lean back and enjoy life. How genuis is that?!? There can be a  lot learned from you.

So it would be good to know if it’s possible to continue gaming (and self improvement) and being open minded for quality women while at the same time adopting the MGTOW spirit. Or does this 2 philosophies conflict with each other?

 

 

[VileNordParticipant 766]

Welcome!

MGTOW is about saying NO to women when they try to control you. It is about ignoring women when they demand access to your utilities as a man, and then offer nothing in return for your sacrifice. It is important to remember that, as a man, your most sought after resource is your TIME. If a woman can get you to invest any amount of your precious time on her without her having to pay you for it (in some such manner), then she has won and you have been suckered.

So, there is nothing incompatible with the two philosophies, as long as you remember to say NO when they ask things of you and don’t intend to reward you for it. Your time is more valuable then her pussy, this is the truth a lot of PUAs should hear.

 

 

 

 

Lust for comfort suffocates the soul

[KeymasterKeymaster]

OF COURSE! A great question. I will be back later today to respond in more detail because I have to bolt – and it warrants it – but I wanted you to know your question was received. Thanks for visiting (and joining) and I will respond in more detail later. Cheers!

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[DybbukParticipant 182]

The problem is that by calling yourself a “PUA”, you are defining your identity by your pursuit of women. Therefore, in a symbolic sense you’re subjugating yourself to women, because women define you.

Maybe it’s a semantic point, because maybe all you mean when you say that is “I use some of the stuff that PUAs teach”. The bottom line is: how much of your identity is wrapped up in trying to get what you want from women? Much less important are the tactics you use to try to achieve your goal…whether that be PUA teachings, sappy mainstream relationship advice, stuff your dad or big brother taught you, or stuff you figured out on your own.

[FlamingManParticipant 9]

Hello guys,

thank you for checking out my post and giving me feedback.

The thing with the time is a real dilemma. I’m studying game (therefore the reference to the term PUA, the game techniques come mainly from PUAs) and it’s alot about learning more effective communication strategies. It’s also about self development and character growth.  You can use game to expand your personality, as a value delivery machine to form the character you like, or you can also use game to sell your current personality in the most appealing way. It doesn’t mean you have to form into a person you don’t like, just to get women. For example if you WANT to become more playfull (which is also attractive to women), than you get yourself a bunch of playfull routines and try them on few hundred women and you eventually become a more humuorus person (the playfull attitude becomes internalized through repitition). The fact that we try our techniques on strangers allows us to sharpen our skills even more, because you get raw uncut feedback.  Right now I’m collecting different concepts / techniques of PUA Gurus (which are meant to attract women) and I use the concepts I feel personaly congruent with (techniques which I would enjoy doing)  and practice them in field. This way I ensure that I stay true to myself while also heading to the direction of being more attractive to women. So if I see a technique which is meant to build high attraction but is also conflicting with my core beliefs I won’t use it. You helped me to understand that’s it not worth it to sacrify your core beliefs just to get women.

Game is multilayered and there are different aspects to it. Anyway it’s very time consuming, because changing behaviours and habits require constant reputation…. there lies the problem. I would say I spent A LOT of time studying and developing my game… if you just do it half- assed it’s not going to work. Even though I use game more to expand my character and develop more effective communication strategies (I’m very outcome independent and don’t care if I get a girl, rather enjoying the process) I can’t deny that I’m in some way ego feeding women. That’s why I feel guilty about it and I wanted to know your opinion. The character I form for example is basically meant to be more appealing to women and women are also the evaluators of our game (At least in the early stages, later we qualify them and decide if we will take things further if she’s worth it).

I have a feel that a  fully trained PUA (or someone who has mastered the concept of game) can be a true MGTOW. He is able to attract women he likes EFFORTLESSLY (=without much  time) and has choice because he has mastered the communication and character development. He doesn’t have to pursue women and he won’t take her s~~~ , women rather want to be a part of his life. He has personal boundaries and a lot of self-respect. This is the goal and vision I have in mind when I train Game. But the reality is that it’s requires a lot of effort on the road and you have to deal with tons of roadblocks on the way. Finding your site was like finding a oasis in the desert.

Kind regards!

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Hi… very delayed in getting back to you. I wanted to reply properly in detail when I had the time.

It’s SO interesting this came up.
Sit down before you fall down.

You know after I left you my original reply on Sunday, I went out for a lunch and to do some writing. Sitting next to me at the bar, was this guy I struck up a conversation with. We exchanged chit chat, what I do, what he does….. and within about 30 minutes I found out he was very active in the game community. A true (and natural) “PUA”. He even looked the part. It was quite uncanny. He’s not a famous PUA but he definitely rolled with the legends many years ago… and then we talked about how I manage a men’s interest site – MGTOW.com – which I introduced him to.

I showed him the trailers and the article on “Hypergamy” a concept which was inspired by Rollo Tomassi. As he was watching the trailer he said “wow that really hits you below the belt and guts you! you didn’t hold back at all!”. In 2 minutes , he got it. So he started to read the article and said he was experiencing it first hand. He never heard the word “hypergamy” before. We spent a couple of hours going back and forth. Both our minds were blown by running into each other like that.

I told him I have seen PUA Tyler Durden in person walking down the street. He knows him well. And I am very aware of David DeAngelo and I mentioned a few things that I learned from him which I still carry with me today. He knew them too. We laughed. I wasn’t a “fan” but I certainly learned some valuable lessons.

•••••

You are no-doubt aware of the website “Return of Kings”. Well that’s red-pill / men’s interest site which qualifies as a Manosphere site with a PUA and MGTOW spirit. Just as many MGTOW participate there as well, PUA is very commonly a brief stop on the way to MGTOW. It’s virtually unavoidable. The more experience you have with women, the more red pill lessons you learn, and it’s common for a guy to say “f~~~ this s~~~” and eventually make his way here — or at least, find it in his travels — even though he may not be ready to embrace it fully.

Personally, I still interact with (and may even occasionally flirt with) women if the energy is good, fun and positive. If she bounces back and we get a little natural rally going, then it can be fun. But most women today have LOST ALL ABILITY to flirt and interact with men in a fun or meaningful way. They are complete s~~~ at it. Talk about this at Return of Kings, I found A LOT of men agreed with me over there.

GAME HAS VALUE. There is no doubt about it.
But I also agree with DYBBUK (above) completely.

Barbarossa’s video on “deconstructing game” is an excellent video and we actually quote directly from it on our glossary page. He has an excellent understanding of game and what it means in the social matrix as we know it. And he articulates it perfectly.

These days women have lost their luster. They are like playing tennis with a wall, and a man learns very quickly they are simply NOT WORTH IT – not on any level. This makes PUA a common stop on the way to MGTOW. I haven’t ruled out women entirely, but there isn’t one shred of blue pill, white knight in me anymore. That man is dead. And so is the man who used to cross the room to talk to a girl just because she’s good looking. Now I just don’t give a s~~~. The PUA who still maintains getting laid is the number one pursuit in life is totally lost on me (and on most of our members from what I can tell).

I don’t “pursue” them, or “approach”.
But I might call one over. Theres a big difference in attitude right there.

I also use playful humor (exactly as you mention above!).
There is a big difference between “playing games” and playing THE game.
THE game…….. is FUN.

But if a chick is not receptive to it and can’t bounce it back, I leave her there and go my own way.

Please feel free to start a game-related thread or conversation any time you are inspired. I may even start one myself from time to time. But, you should be prepared for few to reply or be willing to engage. The idea of “manning up” and working to make a bang happen is both infuriating and pointless to many MGTOW. For example, we have had a few guys step forward and ask for the best way to approach online dating, but just as many will tell him it’s a complete waste of time and women don’t deserve male attention or pursuits anymore.

As a matter of fact, if you have something to say about “s~~~ tests” we are preparing a big piece on this. Self improvement is very important. And education of any kind is never a waste.

A BIG and sincere welcome to you.
Hope to read more from you.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[FlamingManParticipant 9]

Thank you….
This is really a crazy story how you met the guy in the bar. I’m sure you had lots of information to share…. if he’s an active PUA this means he has a lot of real worl experience. I also
can imagine that you shocked him. This will happen probably to everyone whi visits this site for the first time.

You have a reasonable attitude towards ‘approaching’ and flirting. It’s inspiring for me!

I found myself asking the question “Is it Worth it?” pretty often.

[Gone SurfingParticipant 216]

Whenever a PUA thread comes up  the name David Deangelo always comes up. I’m not interested in actively picking up women (if it happens then cool but not by intention) but i do  internet marketing and i know that David Deangelo is not a real person. He is a pen name of internet marketer Eban Pagen who has made millions selling dating and pick up advice. Just thought i would let you know.

http://www.wikiwarrior.com/wiki/David_DeAngelo,_Double_Your_Dating

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Eben-Pagan/135028473246104

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Aware. Perhaps I left out the most important part.

Even more importantly, he’s a fraud. The reason you keep hearing his name is because is one of the first who made a living out of men competing for access to females – shortly after the cultural shift. Yeah, millions of dollars and the BEST he could do was a mannish bitch with a honking nose who proposed to HIM.

Some teacher of “game” huh?

One day he sent out a mass email saying he was getting married – in California no less. (Why doesn’t he just kill himself?). He publicly withdrew EVERYTHING he was teaching – yes really – and announced that he would now be offering relationship and marriage advice. I virtually threw my head back and LOL’ed. It was so f~~~ing epic.

In an email addressed to him, I called him out as a fraud and a poser, and was glad he never got a f~~~ing dime of my money. He’s a zero integrity piece of s~~~, but I hope he and his transexual wife will be very happy together.

••••••••••

I actually saw a video of David D and this guy below (PUA “Tyler Durden”) was a guest speaker in one of his videos. Yes this is a PUA – pick up artist – who claims to be an authority on women:

Catfish are “experts” at “picking up” what’s on the floor of the lake too.

In a video by David D (and back when he was fat) this zero-charisma Tyler Durden was lecturing an all male audience about body language and stance. Not only was my first thought he sounds like a chipmunk when he talks, but he was doing exactly what he was telling others NOT to do. On display in front of everyone, he was talking about how talking with your arms up by your chest (and folded at the elbow) are a sign of “weakness and insecurity”. And then he went and did it himself. If I had been a paying subscriber, I would have walked out laughing.

I saw this guy by accident when exiting Runyon Canyon Park one day. He had lost a lot of weight. He was coming out of one of the apartment buildings and was talking on his mobile. I recognized his voice immediately, and we were going in the same direction, so I walked behind him for a few blocks. He was dressed in flat “van” type sneakers, cargo shorts and a striped navy jumper. No way in hell is this dude picking any woman up.

I did, though. A cute Russian girl passed him and didn’t give him a second look, but she looked at ME. I thought this was funny. She was wearing a T-shirt that said “love me anyway”. So as she was passing, I said “Love you anyway? OK, If you say so…”. She laughed and we talked for a bit.

So it looks like A MGTOW could teach a PUA a few things.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[FlamingManParticipant 9]

Thank you for bringing this up.

Now imagine this guy charges a few thousand dollars for a weekend, teaching men how to pick up women. A few thousand dollars!

The PUA community is full of fraudalant people who aren’t able to pick up women for themselves but yet ‘teach’ this stuff to guys who are in a desperate situation. They sell a bunch of courses which are mostly mental masturbation. Or only designed to make money. They rarely deliver results and aren’t able to demonstrate/ confirm the effectiveness of their teachings. There is a ‘guru’ out there who sells a video course (costs about thousand bucks!) which also includes infield footage. In the infield footage he rarely uses the techniques he teaches in the corresponding course. Most of the guys who join the PUA community ultimately fail, it’s a dangerous maelstrom. There is definitively valuable information within the community but you gotta be carefull and wisely to use this information in a helpful way and not to get sucked in too much. I’m really dissapointed about the current status of the PUA Community.

[DybbukParticipant 182]

The whole topic of PUA and its legitimacy (or lack thereof) is near and dear to my heart.

My thoughts can be condensed and summarized as follows:

1. The popular PUA “gurus” are first and foremost marketers. That is their main skill…NOT teaching. I have heard that at least some of the gurus are in reality losers with women themselves, and that all their bragging to the contrary are lies. I don’t know if that is true or not…I suspect it is. But even if it isn’t…if a guru does well with women, it’s not because he is applying some style of “game” that he can teach you…it’s probably because the same skills that make him a good marketer and business owner also help him with women (leadership, slickness, the status that goes with being quasi-famous, etc.)

2. The material that PUA’s teach can sometimes be helpful and effective. PUA’s are frauds not so much because what they teach is wrong, but because it is overrated. PUA advice is right more often than it is wrong. PUA’s aren’t trying to intentionally sabotage their students. Their advice can help. But the sticky question is how much it helps. All of their best advice might only move a typical guy’s attractiveness needle from, say, a 5.4 to 5.7–barely enough to produce noticeable results, much less to be worth the time, effort, and money that it cost. The fact is that there aren’t any killer secrets out there that a guru can sell you. Any killer secret that did exist would leak out and quickly become common knowledge–like, for instance, “take a shower” was probably cutting edge advice a century ago. Meanwhile, PUA advertising claims that their products can turn a hopeless geek into a rock-star-like stud–obvious exaggeration.

3. PUA “success stories”, to the extent that they do exist, occur mostly because of placebo effects or coincidence. There are a fair number of guys who are innately attractive to women, but just haven’t hit their groove yet. Maybe they’ve always interacted with women in a deflated, head-hung-low manner, and sabotaged themselves. If they invest in PUA material and this gives them a burst of confidence and optimism and the energy to try harder, maybe things turn around for them. They will probably credit the material itself for their success, when in reality they had the capability for success before they ever looked at it. These guys become the fanboys who swear by the guru’s materials to their friends and in online forums. Meanwhile, the larger cohort of guys who had no success are mostly invisible, because they simply walked away when it became clear the material didn’t produce results.

4. PUA’s and their fanboys have learned something that self-help gurus of all stripes have always known: they have an effective, built-in rebuttal to naysayers. The guys who spend time examining and trying PUA material are, by definition, guys who have failed in this area of their life and are looking for help. This therefore deprives them of ammunition should they attempt to argue with the guru about what works and what doesn’t. Most self-help material will include some warmed-over variation of the classic Big Lie of Self-Help: “Believe in yourself and you can accomplish anything!“. If anyone argues with the guru and claims the material doesn’t work, the guru simply has to respond with something like “See how negative you are? If it wasn’t for your negative attitude, you would have success!”.

And BTW, David DeAngelo has not withdrawn his original material.  Go to doubleyourdating.com and you can see for yourself that he’s still selling all of it. He’s not producing anything new, but with low overhead, the trickle of new suckers customers buying his old products is still profitable. (For God sakes, he’s even still selling that old Meeting Women Online program, where he tells you to chat with women on AOL Instant Messenger).

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Props for the Zapruder-style breakdown.

Have to start at the bottom, though.

Yes he did. I was subscribed to his email newsletter years ago and it happened exactly as I described. That he still attempts to make money online by outdated webpages that still exist, is not a reliable indicator. But the following email is – straight from the source. There is plenty online from Red Pill men laughing at him about it. In fact this entire PUA topic is blowing my hair back, because (just yesterday!) I got an email forwarded from a friend still on David D’s list. Here it is dated OCT 16th 2014. Notice the words “I didn’t think it would happen for me.”. David D is a guy who doesn’t even believe his own S~~~ but is holding seminars about it and wants you to pay to attend. The level of fraud is off the charts on this one.

From: David DeAngelo
Sent: ‎10/‎16/‎2014 8:39 AM
To: **********@gmail.com
Subject: NEW David D. Live Seminar (in December)

Hey Paul,

I’m doing an all-new live 4-day seminar in December on how to play the big game in life: THE GAME OF LOVE. As you may have heard, I’ve been exploring a new aspect of life over the past five years, and that is part of life called “Love & Relationships.” Five years ago, I met the most amazing woman – and we got married (as you might know).

I didn’t think it would happen for me, but I guess that’s how life works – the big things come when you don’t expect them. Last year, we had a daughter, and this year I’ve decided to take everything that I’ve learned over the past five years about how to make an intimate relationship work – and teach it in an all-new 4-day live seminar.

To give you a preview: I can tell you that all of the stuff I learned about dating was just the “preparation” for what happens when you decide to have a long-term relationship with an amazing woman. And this past five years, I’ve been studying how to make a relationship work even more than I studied the dating game (and my wife is a love coach, so we’ve really taken this on together).

::: How To Attract & Keep An Amazing Woman :::

If you want to attract the most amazing woman in the world (and I believe that you can find the most amazing woman in the world – for you), then you need to know four things:
1) You need to understand the dating, mating and attraction game
2) You need high self-esteem
3) You need to achieve social status
4) You need to know how to have a deep, intimate relationship with a woman
If you don’t know all four of these things, and have them “down cold” then it’s likely that the woman of your dreams either won’t even NOTICE you… or your relationship won’t work out in the long-run (as most don’t).

::: What Do Women Want? :::

It’s really the ultimate question, isn’t it?
Well, it’s taken me about 15 years to come up with an answer that I’m happy with – and figuring it out has made my relationship work so well that I can hardly believe it.
Instead of explaining what women want here, I want you to watch this new video that I made that explains the four things you need to know to attract and keep a woman – PLUS gives you the answer to this important question.
You can see the video here…

…and learn about my live 4-day seminar in December.
The last live Double Your Dating seminars that I have done have filled up very quickly, and I expect this one to sell out. I’m bringing in a roster of amazing guest speakers that you probably know – many of whom have now found their partners in life – and who have also discovered tactics and methods for really making a relationship work. If you want to be in the room for this monumental event, then I recommend that you watch this new video immediately, and get your registration in as soon as you can.

and I hope to see you in December for my new live seminar!
-David D.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Crazy CanuckMember 4215]

Some guy should bang his wife to prove him wrong. lol

"If pussy was a stock it would be plummeting right now because you've flooded the market with it. You're giving it away too easy." - Dave Chapelle

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Not without a sense of humor either I see. LOLZ Canuck. Good one.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[DybbukParticipant 182]

KeyMaster, you’re right that there was a public shift in DeAngelo’s focus. I was just arguing semantics, really…I assumed that “withdrew” implied “stopped selling”.

It’s funny…there was a forum of DeAngelo fanboys (that has since withered away), and their explanation of his marriage to Annie was that DD was so advanced that he had transcended to a higher level where he doesn’t care about women’s looks as much anymore.

I think his new products are being sold mostly to his base of customers who bought the old pickup products, and will dry up in a few years once he’s squeezed the last bit of blood from that turnip. After all, the market for relationship/marriage advice is pretty crowded. David DeAngelo won’t get much attention in that market except from the already-converted.

 

 

[dominator_xParticipant 2]

hi everyone!

I know quite a few PUA’s personally that are very, very good at picking up girls..sure there are some frauds out there who are just all talk BUT I assure you there are the real deal. Funnily enough, what makes them successful is that they very much have a mgtow frame of mind/mentality – they call women out on their bulls~~~ as soon as they smell it and it a ‘for every action there is an equal and opposite’ kind of way the women find that attractive… so much so that they thrive of being ‘put in their place’.

Modern PUA is now disguised life coaching.. a lot of women are becoming wise to ‘game’…. that being said.. a lot are still not. On a holiday recently I was sitting next to a pretty attractive girl on a bus and to amuse myself I ran a textbook deep rapport script on her. When I say textbook.. I mean TEXTBOOK… and it worked like a charm 😉

[KeymasterKeymaster]

Oh yeah there’s no doubt about it. Without trying MGTOW is an indirect (and not intentionally applied ) “aloof” game. The more you tell her to walk, the more she comes running afar you. Except a PUA knows this to MAKE her come closer…

…. and the MGTOW is being genuine:
“No really. F~~~ off. I really meant it.”

This is unfathomable to most women. They can’t handle it.

Even if you repeat it, she thinks she can “change” you. After you bang her and she wants to have brunch the following day, you tell her “no bitch, I was serious. No f~~~ing relationship. Get out.”

It’s the perfect out.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[dominator_xParticipant 2]

hahaha f~~~ yes. keymaster knows the go!

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

I used to know a guy who paid $6000 for one of those LA Weekend PUA fieldwork things… you know, the kind where the mark gets waltzed around to bars full of confederates who “fall” for all the con-man’s moves as “proof” that PUA techniques actually work. Then he went to Tokyo… a town where a half-decent looking white man literally has to swat pussy away to get from his hotel to the train station… and he still couldn’t get laid.

So if this is a guy’s idea of PUA Game… spending tons of time and money, learning neurolinguistic programming, cold reading, table magic and other con artist trickery and spending his nights and weekends and cash chasing tail… then counting score with his buddies to see who has bamboozled more women into drunken one night stands… well that doesn’t sound very MGTOW to me.

I read “The Game” a few years back… by the time I got to the end it was pretty clear that these men weren’t even into game for the pussy. They all seemed to have serious self-esteem issues and were just trying to one-up each other… more like fighter pilots jostling for the title of top gun than men going their own way.

So yeah, If you’re going through your game stage to take back some power from the women in your life, I get that. But I think most MGTOW are past the game stage and aren’t particularly interested in expending any more time, energy and money dealing with females than they absolutely have to… because really, how can you say you’re going your own way when most of what you’re doing on a daily basis is a calculated effort to trick females into holding your dick for a few minutes?

Disclaimer here: I’ve had a LOT of casual sex with a LOT of different women already at this point in my life so it’s probably a lot easier for me to say this now than it would have been for my 22-28 year old self.

[tsParticipant 109]

PUA is very commonly a brief stop on the way to MGTOW. It’s virtually unavoidable. The more experience you have with women, the more red pill lessons you learn, and it’s common for a guy to say “f~~~ this s~~~” and eventually make his way here

That’s exactly what happened to me. I found out about PUA back in 2003, when it still was a “secret society” on the Internet and not the common mainstream phenomenon it is today. I tried some of the concepts and unexpectedly dealing with girls wasn’t a total mystery anymore. The results looked quite promising. In 2006 I bought a book “Lob des Sexismus” which was filled with red pill truths (without having this term in it).

Suddenly the “challenge” was gone. Now dating was nothing more than going through a lot of time and effort to get access to more and better pussy. The puzzle was solved, now just take these 10000 presorted pieces and put them together on the other table again, every time!

This was the point where I began to lost interest in dating. But this book wasn’t about dating only, but it also tried to be a LTR guidebook: How to deal with constant drama and s~~~-testing when living together with a woman, how to avoid a “dead bedroom” with your wife and so on.

That was an eye-opener. All this effort to just get THAT? No thanks, I’m out! And I didn’t even know about MGTOW back then.

Well, this was before “social networks” and female validation devices (smartphones) became mainstream. These completely changed the socio-dynamics of the western world and made PUA mostly obsolete in my opinion. In the current environment it doesn’t work anymore. So without anticipating this drastic change in society I made the right decision instead of wasting a lot of money for mastering a now ineffective method.

[Author]

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