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tripvan 4 years, 1 month ago.
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Hey guys, happy international mens´ day for last Thursday, glad the site held up!
I just finished a hangouts with a woman I was in a long term relationship with for a few years. We lived together, went to college together, etc. Ended the conversation saying how much better it was to have my own bed and be able to stretch out and roll over to whichever side I wanted, not have what amounts to an ¨electric blanket¨ next to me all the time, etc. At this end of a nice conversation, the claws came out and she attempted to guilt me, saying that what I had said was horrible and amounted to saying that our past relationship was no good…
I had told her in the past that I felt that our relationship changed me from being my own person to being someone completely different. She told me that she didn´t change anything about me, but that is only what she can comprehend. Looking back, there was a lot of subliminal effort that pressured me in certain directions that I was unaware of, and would have been further unaware of because she was not going to be able to tell me any of it herself. She was just tapping into her female nature subconsciously, and that in effect caught me below my radar. If she pointed these things she would change vocally, I would have said no at the beginning, but these things are not of the strictly logical world.
Instead of acknowledging my new-found happiness as an intrinsic good, she perceives it as a threat to her pining for some ideal relationship we could have continued towards at some point in the future. A threat because what she perceived as value on her end, I was not seeing at the same rate of exchange. She valued me being there next to her in the bed every night, and still thinks about it – not talking about sexual activity, which was something which could have added value but which in fact we did not engage in for months on end.
Ultimately that I was refusing to perceive having someone next to me in bed every night as something intrinsically worth more than being physically free of being pushed to the side of the bed was enough to trigger this kind of response. To me this indicates that there is a HUGE divide between what this woman says and thinks, and what she does/how she acts. Her ability was to use logic as the blanket to cover this deception, and I am very lucky to be out from under there. The question that baffles me the most is whether or not she operates in this manner consciously manipulative, or if in fact she is blind to it herself and is unconsciously manipulative.
What made me most happy about this hangout was that I genuinely did not give a f~~~ about her attempt at shaming. I did not back down from what I said. Thank you MGTOW, you gave me the strength to stand up for what I think and moreover to have been able to express to this person how I feel without caring about the cost of recrimination.
Kudos for standing your ground!
Conscious vs unconscious is, to me, a distinction without a difference. Women manipulate, full stop. It’s what they do. They act defensive and threatened if you call them on it, which in itself is manipulative.
That said, I think for most of them it’s unconscious. For others, it’s conscious but they don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Have you heard the phrase ‘unconsciously competent?’ It’s when you are so good at something, you can do it skillfully without thinking about it. Like walking. Whether you do it consciously or not, it gets you where you want to go. Same with female manipulation.
Safety rules: All guns are loaded. All knives are sharp. All stoves are hot. All women are like that.
Hello, Tripvan.
I cannot imagine anyone being “unconsciously” manipulative and I have enough imagination for a whole platoon.
Manipulation is a conscious thought process that usually has a goal or end results desired by the manipulator. Women scheme and plot together to shame, hurt, imprison and kill men out of a warped sense of justice dictated to them by a perceived enmity toward “Patriarchy”, a concept fabricated by women-haters in order to give the femgender a target for their frustration and hate.
This tendency to attribute women’s behavior to some imagined subconscious processes is not only convenient ( no evidence of the contrary can be put forth ) but also gets women off the hook as to taking responsibilities for their vile actions and terroristic thoughts.
As Men, we are not given the excuse to blame our subconscious or some other exterior factors either when we f~~~ up or not. Men are expected to answer for their actions and thought in the full light of the law.
This society refuses to see Men as Human Beings capable of error and misjudgement. That’s because for too long men have been seen as worker-drones, creatures to extract all resources from then be dumped in the gutter to die alone. I almost was that man and the only reason I’m alive today is thanks to my kids.
I was not given any excuses, nor shown any mercy or pity. They taught me well.
In return, I assign no excuses to women, not even the benefit of the doubt.
Women are cold, calculated creatures who hide behind feeeeeeeeelings to justify their inability to reason properly.
Everything they do they do on purpose!Don't let them Blame, Shame or Tame you!
Give 'em NOTHING, not even an answer!
#GenderSegragationNow!
Anonymous18To me this indicates that there is a HUGE divide between what this woman says and thinks, and what she does/how she acts.
In a relationship or interaction of more than a cordial formality, both men and women say and think one thing but do things differently with/towards each other. But men do not have to be right all the time. She does. That is the real difference in why a man often finds himself at short end of the stick in any relationship. She acts in accordance of what she thinks regardless of the circumstances or logical conclusions that show what she thinks is not founded in reality.
The question that baffles me the most is whether or not she operates in this manner consciously manipulative, or if in fact she is blind to it herself and is unconsciously manipulative.
She operates on inherent internal conflict. It doesn’t take a man to realize it as it manifests as an external force, especially when living with a woman. She manipulates the situation to be in agreement with her feelings and emotions that are her logical and rationale tools. A man happens to be in her path of irrational and selfish existence.
And women are never wrong. That’s what she thinks,
Instead of acknowledging my new-found happiness as an intrinsic good, she perceives it as a threat to her pining for some ideal relationship we could have continued towards at some point in the future. A threat because what she perceived as value on her end, I was not seeing at the same rate of exchange.
Single gals who ‘sling mud’ at guys for following their own way seem to have forgotten that if they truly cared for a man (and were worthy of his affection in return) … they would voluntarily let him go.
Ironic, isn’t it? Despondent single women with few prospects sitting in a group around a table and crying in their drinks as they tell contemporary guys to ‘Man Up’ and assume their traditional roles – these woman are demonstrating a selfish desire for control in a fantasy world that revolves around themselves at the expense of the man’s very life .. exactly the opposite of the attributes of maturity and caring that one would desire and find attractive. These gals have AWALT written all over them … they may as well have it permanently tattooed as they will never change. They apparently don’t know any other way .. and their juvenile attempts to place guilt upon men for their current relationship woes .. overwhelmingly created by the women themselves … simply won’t work.
Holding onto the belief that a NAWALT (if a Unicorn could exist) would do everything in her power to encourage a man to discover his path and overtly encourage him to do so’ … she would do this even if his chosen route never included a relationship with her.
Rather than tear him down with selfish words and actions .. she would encourage him to follow his own bliss above her own desires … and ask absolutely nothing in return.They know EXACTLY what they’re doing.
Maybe they’ve done it for ssooooo long …. it’s second nature (proxy unconscious ?)
But they know alright …. no question.
‘If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. If they don’t, they never were.’
The corollary: If they cling and run guilt-based con games, then they were always predators; and you are their prey.
Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?
Thanks for such great replies!
I understand that it´s reasonable for us guys to talk about women having full understanding of their capacities, maybe this is the issue that NAWALT fails to take in to account. That it is a part of their nature, hence the AWALT view, and some women are consciously competent of the fact, but there remains a large proportion of them who remain unconsciously competent. The reason why I failed to bring this up before was because it seems that these terms are more apt to describe the learning process, and this may be either an ingrained behavior OR something that is taught by mothers´ inter-generational womanhood and society at large.
Have you heard the phrase ‘unconsciously competent?’ It’s when you are so good at something, you can do it skillfully without thinking about it.
At this point I believe this girl is unconsciously competent of her nature, whilst she is consciously competent of the attributes in her life that correlate with herself with being NAWALT. For example, she understands that she can do what she wants so long as her partner agrees to her behavior, yet she does not understand that on an unconscious level she actively manipulates that behavior in her favor before it has a chance to be brought up as a concern just as someone consciously competent of this fact.
Hence the danger for men to fall into a NAWALT trap because of our own logic used to justify a girl as being NAWALT self serves as a cloak over all the things that she manages to change in your life. And those subconsciously competent of this fact are most dangerous perhaps because they do not give you a hint that they are changing things about you – they make you think you´re doing it all yourself, to yourself, of your own self volition. Which of course one does, but subconsciously directing a man to behave in a certain way is not something one of these subconsciously competent women will take the blame of. Probably because that´s just ¨Love¨ after all.
Everything they do they do on purpose!
I would like to believe this too, and I love to give credit where credit is due. It´s just that I think some of these nice NAWALT-type girls don´t even realize what they´re capable of doing with their eyes closed.
She operates on inherent internal conflict. It doesn’t take a man to realize it as it manifests as an external force, especially when living with a woman…
…And women are never wrong. That’s what she thinks,
Amen.
Single gals who ‘sling mud’ at guys for following their own way seem to have forgotten that if they truly cared for a man (and were worthy of his affection in return) … they would voluntarily let him go.
Ironic, isn’t it?…
…Rather than tear him down with selfish words and actions .. she would encourage him to follow his own bliss above her own desires … and ask absolutely nothing in return.
It´s funny, but ever since we broke up, she´s been waiting for me like this open-ended offer to re-establish things. Like our relationship ended just because of the circumstances. Except for one thing – I am not going back. She knows I did not enjoy many aspects of the relationship, but it doesn´t enter her head that I will never go back. She has her ex-boyfriends who still chase after her – and she is just going to have to accept that I am not one of them.
But they know alright …. no question.
They realize that they wield this power, but it is another thing all together to have an understanding of it and using it consciously. Hence why some women can act purposefully maliciously, whereas someone else can do the same act and be so blind to pulling the trigger as not be counted as malicious. No need to give too much credit to the female intellect here. In my eyes, if anyone acts maliciously, they need to pay the price – even if they can prove that their own internal logic did not dictate this act with malicious intent.
The corollary: If they cling and run guilt-based con games, then they were always predators; and you are their prey.
Oh man, ain´t that the truth…
Thanks for such great replies!
I understand that it´s reasonable for us guys to talk about women having full understanding of their capacities, maybe this is the issue that NAWALT fails to take in to account. That it is a part of their nature, hence the AWALT view, and some women are consciously competent of the fact, but there remains a large proportion of them who remain unconsciously competent. The reason why I failed to bring this up before was because it seems that these terms are more apt to describe the learning process, and this may be either an ingrained behavior OR something that is taught by mothers´ inter-generational womanhood and society at large.
Everything they do they do on purpose!
I would like to believe this too, and I love to give credit where credit is due. It´s just that I think some of these nice NAWALT-type girls don´t even realize what they´re capable of doing with their eyes closed.
ALL NAWALTs are AWALTs and saying that a NAWALT might be a “nice” person who doesn’t realize what she’s capable of is tantamount to giving a free pass to all women since all women are AWALTs and sets you up for more manipulation or worse. The weemins want you to think that while their intentions are innocent they cannot help but be manipulative. That’s their standard excuse for a slew of other behaviors for which Men are condemned and destroyed.
Women have ridden the “OH poor me” gravy train for far too long!
You can delude yourself in thinking that there are “nice” women out there who are not aware of their power over men or cannot help being hateful bitches but as for me I refuse to believe that.
There are no “nice” women, only bitches and c~~~s and I will never ever find any excuse for the f~~~ed up things a woman does to bring a man down. Ever.Don't let them Blame, Shame or Tame you!
Give 'em NOTHING, not even an answer!
#GenderSegragationNow!If you’re being manipulated, it doesn’t make a lot of difference whether it’s deliberate or not. I’m honestly not sure which is even worse: someone who deliberately chooses to manipulate, or someone who is so twisted that they manipulate without thinking about it.
My general sense is that most of the women I’ve known instinctively manipulated; some I’m certain deliberately did so. The effects of both were quite destructive to me, and intent was not relevant to outcome. At one point, I spent fifteen years of my life pursuing a woman who was interested in me for the first month of our acquaintainceship. I generally think she was instinctively manipulative, but on occasion it was quite deliberate. My soul is quite scarred, and I am still healing from this rather a long time later. Of course, realizing what was going on, which has only happened post-Red Pill, was key to getting the healing to start. If one is not aware of an illness, psychological or physical, one cannot begin to treat it.
Not All Grenades Are Like That, either. Some give off flowers and jelly beans when you pull the pin. Here’s a box – figure out which ones are the good ones for me, ok?
"You can either love women, or understand women. You can't do both. Because once you understand women, you realize that there is really nothing to love."
Consciously. Make no mistake about it. Plausible deniability is key for her M.O…… to make like she doesn’t know … but don’t make the mistake of thinking she doesn’t know EXACTLY what she’s doing.
It’s only “female nature” to a certain degree, but they are all there ……and even TEACH each other.
http://www.wikihow.com/Manipulate-Men
http://www.lovepanky.com/women/understanding-men/women-manipulating-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/gentlemen/women-men/How to manipulate men in 10 sneaky ways
http://www.lovepanky.com/women/understanding-men/how-to-manipulate-menMessenger Rising did a great video clarifying this available here in his channel.
/channel/messenger-rising/?v=qHKf4z01l5M
He has seen the gates of hell open at the hands of a female.
It’s not just “woman-ipulation”. It’s plain evil and it’s playing with your LIFE.
/audio/women-lie-to-get-pregnant/They KNOW that it’s wrong. And that’s when “manipulative” changes to “evil”.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.[…]
Ended the conversation saying how much better it was to have my own bed and be able to stretch out
[…]
she attempted to guilt me, saying that what I had said was horrible and amounted to saying that our past relationship was no good…
[…]
Instead of acknowledging my new-found happiness as an intrinsic good, she perceives it as a threat to her pining for some ideal relationship we could have continued towards at some point in the future. A threat because what she perceived as value on her end, I was not seeing at the same rate of exchange.
[…]
What made me most happy about this hangout was that I genuinely did not give a f~~~ about her attempt at shaming. I did not back down from what I said. Thank you MGTOW, you gave me the strength to stand up for what I think and moreover to have been able to express to this person how I feel without caring about the cost of recrimination.If your happiness is a problem for someone, that is a great sign, showing you that you do NOT need that person in your life.
Get rid of people who are unhappy or displeased or downright nasty about things which make you happy. Take advice, be reasonable, but if someone has a problem with your happiness, do exactly what you did, tripvan: Don’t give a f~~~ about them and stand your ground, keep up the good work! 🙂Indeed, it’s training, that manipulation. Manipulation is used by women to train and/or change men to whatever idea of a man they see fit and in their mind it’s justified, validated. F~~~ her opinion and manipulation, ignore.
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. --Einstein
Messenger Rising did a great video clarifying this available here in his channel.
/channel/messenger-rising/?v=qHKf4z01l5M
He has seen the gates of hell open at the hands of a female.
Thank you for the video, and the links to the fem-content.
I also followed up by listening to this:
In the past week I have also been struggling to wrap my mind around a different concept, by listening to non-MGTOW videos regarding determinism and free will.Essentially since scientists have discovered they can predict human action before the conscious mind thinks about it, this is used as a basis for claims that we do not have free will. That since the mind is a physiological unit in a physical world, that it´s not only absorbent of the inputs and outputs in it´s environment, but entirely dependent upon these inputs and outputs in making choices and decisions. They claim that the mind already has made up it´s mind to take a particular course of action before the conscious will has either decided or made a rationalization of it. That free will is an illusion that the brain is really good at convincing itself of.
I also stumbled across people quoting a particular study where people who were suggested that free will doesn´t exist are more likely to be forgiving of another´s action and less likely to pursue vengeance. Those of the camp that were suggested free will is real and we all have full control over our actions were more likely want to see that vengeance were to be had, such as sending someone who committed a crime to jail.
Just to clarify, those convinced against free will decided that people, because they were more affected by their environment and surroundings, and deserved a path to recovery as opposed to punishment. Those convinced of free will decided that punishment was necessary.
And then today something clicked in my mind, and I started to spot some convergent lines between this and the MGTOW community.
Lately there has been greater animosity amongst many publishers of MGTOW video content on Youtube. One of these fights I have been watching is this one where Messenger Rising has been accused of bullying other content producers:
I have not been watching the whole fight play out, as it seems to be happening mainly in the comment streams and behind the scenes, but I have noticed Messenger Rising does like to tell people off for being too soft.It would seem by my opinion that this primarily is a battle between those in the MGTOW community who believe women operate and make decisions completely in a scientifically predictable manner and those who believe in free will. It is just that they might not understand it as disagreements on the nature of free will.
Perhaps those that think women make evil choices also believe in free will – that because of the choices these women make, they are ¨Evil¨, and since all women act like this, then all women are ¨Evil¨. And because of this, they need to pay their dues and vengeance must be had (Messenger Rising).
On the flip side, those looking at female behavior as strictly as a behavioral trait look at the vengeance and ¨Evil¨ interpretation as a bygone anachronism. Perhaps these are likely people who believe less, or not at all, in free will. The free will believers seem strange to them primarily because one of the biggest MGTOW discussion points is how these women act in such an animalistic and predictable way. This would suggest that free will is out of their domain (and ours too, but that is another matter).
These two camps, unknowing of this hidden implication of logic, lock heads when those who believe in free will happen to be offended that vengeance is not sought by those who do not believe.
How strange that one of the implications of unspoken viewpoints on the matter of freedom of will could possibly have resulted in such strong antagonistic feelings between MGTOW content producers. Should I create a separate topic about this? Or maybe I have made a mountain out of a mole hill, either way what are your thoughts everyone?
If your happiness is a problem for someone, that is a great sign, showing you that you do NOT need that person in your life.
Don’t give a f~~~ about them and stand your ground, keep up the good work!So true, thank you!
Here’s the thing about free will and determinism; if we have no free will, we still have the illusion of choice… so it makes no difference what you believe. Weather you believe your choices are pre-determined or not- you still wake up in the morning and choose weather or not to get up, or eat breakfast, or wash, or go to work, or stay with your abusive girlfriend/wife/etc or leave her. It makes no difference because we still make choices and to believe that you have choice and to give everyone, including yourself, responsibility for their choices, is vastly liberating for you and deeply revealing about other people’s allegiances and true nature.
You can still believe in free will without resorting to punishment, the desire for vengeance and punishment come from being treated that way as a child by your parents and developing the underlying paradigm that if people don’t treat you well or obey you or agree with you etc etc you have the right to punish them, which is ridiculous and straight up wrong.
People treating you badly by their own volition is a very useful insight, once you get closure that someone is really an arsehole, regardless of free will or not, you can simply say “No” and walk away. No need for punishment, simply remove them from your life. In fact, believing that someone does have choice, gets arseholes out of your life quicker because you don’t forgive them or give them a “get out of jail free” card. Forgiveness for deliberate choices was invented by arseholes to get away with being evil.…you have choice and to give everyone, including yourself, responsibility for their choices, is vastly liberating for you and deeply revealing about other people’s allegiances and true nature.
You can still believe in free will without resorting to punishment, the desire for vengeance and punishment come from being treated that way as a child by your parents and developing the underlying paradigm that if people don’t treat you well or obey you or agree with you etc etc you have the right to punish them, which is ridiculous and straight up wrong…
…Forgiveness for deliberate choices was invented by arseholes to get away with being evil.
Here are my definitions, and they are probably different for other people so just take it all with a grain of salt. Freedom of choice is for example to choose what to do today, and is restricted based on what you had for breakfast, what interactions you limit yourself to in the outside world, etc. Freedom of will is for example being intrinsically free of the past, environmental and genetic factors to be able to freely make the right choices without need to be triggered to make a choice.
In a world devoid of free will, a woman who bitches, cheats, steals and divorces her husband might not have been free to make her choices because of the social environment and genetics she grew up in and lives her life within. In a world with free will, you would expect to find a percentage of NAWALT who remain right and just long after marriage. No doubt a woman devoid of free will has choices to make and be responsible for, but is an avoidable disaster as her actions are both predictable and understandable. She is triggered and elicit responses that go against what men believe is the right and logical because it is in her genetic nature and environment to act in a certain way.
I agree that we are capable of making choices, but these choices are still going to be influenced on environmental factors such as communicating with friends, absorbing MGTOW information, etc. The choice is still yours, and is something that is decided upon freely (non-coerced) is due to the factor of your freedom, individual and social such as being financially secure/being in locked jail/being in a police state. If this factor is indeed free, then your choice can by all means be considered a free choice. But is it free will? Is your brain´s decision to make a choice based on your rationalization of the situation, or did the situation trigger a choice to be made before your mind was able to rationalize it´s intent to make a decision? Is this intent we afford ourselves a chemical delusion – the cart coming before the train?
Now it is interesting you bring up vengeance and punishment coming from someone´s upbringing. If that is the case, I assume we can imply that because this person did not have much control over their own circumstances during this time in their life that they did not make the choice to inflict such a viewpoint upon them-self. So because this hypothetical person did not have the free will to change the way their identity was structured during this formative period of their life. Sure, they could have had the choice to run away at any point, but I posit that this would only have been resorted to after a moment so extreme as to trigger this kind of choice, at which point the brain would rationalize it to be a free will decision.
Equally if this person developed in the opposite direction in spite of their environment, one would certainly look for a moment in their life where they decided to make a conscious choice. For example, a baker who grew up in a prestigious family of bakers, who after a freak baking incident in his childhood vowed to himself to take on another profession. He might rationalize that it was of their own free will, but if there were no incident in their childhood it would be incredibly probable that he would have just stuck through it all and also became a baker. Or maybe he saw his dad miserable in this profession, or something else. It´s a decision to be made only after a circumstance in life brings them to make a choice. But ultimately he is not going to go off and join the marines just to earn his living unless he is purposefully looking for something else in life/bored/wanting to make a drastic change/etc. These might be rationalizations for our choices created after the decision has already been made in our minds.
And this is the same with MGTOW and maybe red pill too – the moment in our life where we made a conscious choice. But if we had free will what stopped us from making this obvious choice up until the moment we had? We might have been exposed to red pill knowledge while we were already blue pill, but there was always a rationalization there in our heads like NAWALT keeping us tied in our ways. What was necessary was a trigger for free choice to move in the right direction, and MGTOW lights this pathway in black and white.
Do you blame your blue-pill friends in marriages for their own unhappiness because they have not taken the red pill or even heard of MGTOW? I am sure if they had free will they would also align with our viewpoints, but they, like us, have to be kicked in the b~~~~ X-amount of times before they start to question whether it´s worth the squeeze.
We can blame female seductiveness, but ultimately for most of us we had to wait for a time in our lives where the circumstances got so bad that this choice had to be made. It does not matter how much experience each of us had, some of us had to go further down the rabbit hole before we cracked because we are all unique individuals.
One can acknowledge separation from an idealistic sense of free will, whilst still accepting responsibility lies within the choices people make. BUT, these choices come after the human realizes they have to make a choice, and that it is only theirs to make. I say that we each have to reach a decision individually, before it is rationalized by the brain as a conscious action (the decision rationalized as a response to a specific circumstance as a free choice, making it seem to observation as free will). Like the allegory of the cave, one has to be suggested to that they should stop taking the shadows as reality before they can make a choice to move outside the cave onto greater things. Some of us just have to look at the open door of the cave, and some others have to wander around outside and climb down a rabbit hole before making a choice to live above ground in the open air.
To forgive someone who is an asshole requires a conscious choice on behalf of the forgiver, and there are varying levels of assholery which would indeed warrant varying levels of forgiveness. But for the sake of the asshole, does the path to responsible adulthood lie in the path of punishment for their deeds, or in getting them to realize that they have to make a choice to walk down a new path that will be more difficult, but ultimately more rewarding.
Not believing in freedom of will does not open the flood gates of forgiving every asshole for their evil choices. This is often a tactic used to exonerate unnecessary punishment and further confuse freedom of will with freedom of choice. There still needs to be both carrots and sticks to coerce people to choose against evil.
It is just that in western civilization at this point there are less sticks to prevent the female mind from pursuing the wrong choices than ever before in history, and less carrots for them to treat men with respect. And there in turn there are less carrots and more sticks for men to be the draft horse. It is no wonder every day more men are making the choice to follow this path.
Just as freedom of choice does not make women behave any better, more or less manipulative, etc. freedom of will should be perceived as merely a post-decision making rationalization and unable to direct one´s actions. Triggers are unpredictable and can force a choice in anyone at any time. We should work to understand undesirable people and let them be who they have chosen to be. We do not have to call them evil, but we should realize a lot of their choices are hard-wired genetically and inflated by rationalizations based on their environment and history. Likewise, everyone has the power to make their own choices at any point in their lives. Women will respond to these triggers more than others and make choices like the wind changes direction. But for changing anyone´s direction in life, it just comes down to whether or not there is a trigger powerful enough to force a choice, for better or for worse.
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