Home › Forums › Philosophy › AA Promises are very similar to the promises of MGTOW
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iMickey503 1 year ago.
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AA BIG BOOK – PG. 83
“If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us—sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them.”
Galatians 5:1 (KJV) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Nice reading. Thanks.
Peace is > piece.
It is plain to see, that life filled with anger and resentment is wasted. To the extent we permit these emotions to rule us, we squander the hours worth living that could have been content.
Something like that.
Im sober as f~~~ bra! 6 years in August! If I hadn’t of been struck sober in 2013…Id be f~~~ing dead or in prison, GUARANTEED. Luckily I found MGTOW in 2013 too, a month into my sobriety. Both saved me from a life of confusion and pain.
Drinking and Women have many parallels. Both are depressants. Im high on life now. Coffee, Bicycle & AA and MGTOW = my self actualization
Women, alcohol same crap.
Is a drug after all, is about feeling “good”
I pass, im cool on my own.
To those following me, be careful, I just farted. Men those beans are killers.
There are many things in AA that I can’t get on board with and complained about for years. Now I dont worry about it because AA is a very valuable tool filled with philosophical axioms and good people if you find them. You get out what you put in.
I was very cross about the anthropromorphic god they suggest you turn your will over to. Indeed, this deity is in 6 of their 12 steps and ‘he’ is more than just a doorknob or ” G roup O f D runks). A deity that can ‘restore’ ‘remove’ ‘has a will’ ‘makes conscious contact’ and ‘hears’ your confessions is much more than a pantheist notion of “god.” It’s plain to see that AA is a conversion to religion no matter how seemingly diluted and pseudo it appears — it’s origins are Oxford which was brutally evangelistic.
The thing I found is this though. My views about Freenil are absolutely (to borrow a word from Oxford dogma) parallel with the essence of the AAs 12 Steps which revolve around powerlessness and surrender to a higher power. My objective account of causality makes no room for freewill anyhow, which is analogous to powerlessness. Isn’t that the route of insanity? Imagining control where non exists? Fighting for control ends in spiritual malady. As with many religions, the solution is surrender to the current of the cosmos. Be the water, flow around the rock.
What I have found in life is that my views about Biological Determinism, Freenil and Causality are not easily accepted by laymen folks who insist on believing they have control of their lives in every small detail. They wont accept that freewill is bunk, either because their religious views or because its just so counter intuitive. Both agnostics and Christians resist and deny these concepts I have mentioned. So in reality, I appear to them; as relying on a ‘faith’ of sorts in my own scientific convictions. After much needless resentment on my part and theirs, there is no use to squabble in disagreement. My “faith” and their faith, though different routes, arrive at the same destination in my opinion, that destination is powerlessness by any name, and surrendering to the thing that has power and directs biological traffic LOL.
As the BORG say, Resistance is Futile! Especially in terms of AA (because alcoholism is a life or death struggle) its paramount to GET OVER the petty differences of philosophy and stay sober if you have found yourself lucky enough to be sober. Its not a choice to quit drinking, as there is no defense against the first drink. Its a lifestyle of conscious habit forming and ‘trying’ to be spiritually fit. That is our only defense against the lunacy we could slip into with regards to drinking again.
These are my views only. If you cant square them with your ‘program’ … then please know that no ill will was meant. Happy Sobriety!
Happy Music for your Sunday Sobriety! (btw, I was introduced to Astrud Gilberto from someone on this site when they post Ipanema Girl one day LOL) But this other song turned out being my favorite.
Difference is, we are not a cult. We have no book to follow, we can criticize whatever we want when it comes to others giving advice, we dont have a mentor/mentee system, we dont view ourselves as having a disease that will never be cured, no court requires anyone to attend or become a mgtow, etc. We don’t exist as a group because we think we have a disease we cannot control.
Its not a great comparisn. Any group of any kind seeking to better themselves can be said to be like AA if those are the passages that verdict is based on. Socialists, feminists, whatever.
I personally cannot stand AA because the premises are fundamentally flawed, namely that alcoholism is a disease. It is not a disease, it’s a behavior. Calling it a disease is how alcoholics remove personal responsibility from themselves for the choices they made that got them where they are. The alcohol didnt pour itself down their throats. And most people who drink do not turn into alcoholics. Their behavioral choices did it. And thats not a disease. Cancer is a disease, mrsa and the flu are diseases, aids and hepatitis are diseases. Alcoholism is not a disease.
And men are not making bad behavioral decisions and becoming mgtow men in the process.
Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.
Congratulations on your sobriety.
Do enjoy. Most people only lie about their victories.
The thing is, you do have a choice. YOu do have free will. But weather you go in god’s path is up to you.
I will leave it at that.
Truly, I am grateful you are with us today.
You are all alone. If you have been falsely accused of RAPE, DV, PLEASE let all men know about the people who did this. http://register-her.net/web/guest/home
Secret Agent.
Bill W. specifically stated many times (in the literature too) that “allergy” and “disease” references were metaphorical. (!) Of course alcoholism is not analogous to an allergic reaction like a bee sting, nor is it a disease like cancer. This is plain to see and has been stated many times and even published 50 years ago.
Your argument about taking responsibility for your choices seems logical but it isn’t. Here’s why.
1. Responsibility and accountability are two entirely different animals. A brown-bag boozer under a bridge is a scumbag because he refuses to take accountability for his alcoholism, but to say he is responsible for his circumstances implies blame and that is ignorant. He no more chose to be an alcoholic than you chose to be a contrarian.
2. Freewill doesn’t exist. If not drinking like a pig was a choice, why has substance abuse been a massive ongoing tragedy since before recorded history? You see a man continuously jailed, loses jobs, loses relationships, pays fines, is classified insane and hospitalized but he “chooses” to keeping getting wasted everyday? lol. Why didnt he just “choose” to stop after a DWI or hangover? But he went on to ruin 25 years of his life or even die? I think you may be downplaying the powerlessness of alcoholism.
…just saying. I dont agree with calling alcoholism a disease either but alcoholics are sick people, just as sick as anyone in the hospital. This is not an opinion. The DSM-IV describes it as a “disorder” so there ya go… Would you blame someone for having bi-polar disorder and tell them to ‘choose’ to stop being stupid?
Sorry to jump on your ass but let’s be real about substance abuse…
Spleefer wasn’t trying to say AA and MGTOW are twin sisters. He just made a point that the end goals for recovering from alcoholism are similar to the fruits of going monk. Liberty, peace, being unafraid, fiscal security, spiritual relief. He has a great point.
MGTOW has a s~~~load of faults too we could drag out of the closet too. If you choose to focus on negative things, thats all you see. Nothing is black and white. Its all grey.
The thing is, you do have a choice. YOu do have free will.
Like I said above: people refuse to understand objective facts and will not accept Determinism.
We have demonstrated inarguably for decades that freewill is a delusion, scientifically, philosophically etc… It’s not an opinion, it’s as FACT as natural selection. Doesnt matter at all because people base their world view on how they feel, not facts.
Just wondering, did everyone just one day start taking Brain Fuel or B vitamins or something? Holy s~~~, it just seems like everyone is using their noodle more then not today.
I have one question. What did you to to Gravel Pit, and where is he? OKay that’s two, but still.
Feels like I’m swimming in an ocean where the water is so clear, you can see all the sand on the bottom. But I’m only looking up. Nice day today.
You are all alone. If you have been falsely accused of RAPE, DV, PLEASE let all men know about the people who did this. http://register-her.net/web/guest/home
The thing is, you do have a choice. YOu do have free will.
Like I said above: people refuse to understand objective facts and will not accept Determinism.
We have demonstrated inarguably for decades that freewill is a delusion, scientifically, philosophically etc… It’s not an opinion, it’s as FACT as natural selection. Doesnt matter at all because people base their world view on how they feel, not facts.This makes me feel so much better. I now understand what I must do. THank you.
I have been fighting what I have been needing to do. And I should just do it. I should stop feeling guilty, and remember that it was not me, but what I was meant to do in the first place. Ah.. I can finally breathe a sigh of relief. I don’t have to feel guilty, or feel I am doing anything wrong.
The evidence is clear. I was Born to do this. I should just follow that path. If it is not so, then it was made to be that way.
Thank you brother.
So Carnage, are you ready for you wish?
You are all alone. If you have been falsely accused of RAPE, DV, PLEASE let all men know about the people who did this. http://register-her.net/web/guest/home
Secret Agent.
Bill W. specifically stated many times (in the literature too) that “allergy” and “disease” references were metaphorical. (!) Of course alcoholism is not analogous to an allergic reaction like a bee sting, nor is it a disease like cancer. This is plain to see and has been stated many times and even published 50 years ago.
Your argument about taking responsibility for your choices seems logical but it isn’t. Here’s why.
1. Responsibility and accountability are two entirely different animals. A brown-bag boozer under a bridge is a scumbag because he refuses to take accountability for his alcoholism, but to say he is responsible for his circumstances implies blame and that is ignorant. He no more chose to be an alcoholic than you chose to be a contrarian.
2. Freewill doesn’t exist. If not drinking like a pig was a choice, why has substance abuse been a massive ongoing tragedy since before recorded history? You see a man continuously jailed, loses jobs, loses relationships, pays fines, is classified insane and hospitalized but he “chooses” to keeping getting wasted everyday? lol. Why didnt he just “choose” to stop after a DWI or hangover? But he went on to ruin 25 years of his life or even die? I think you may be downplaying the powerlessness of alcoholism.
…just saying. I dont agree with calling alcoholism a disease either but alcoholics are sick people, just as sick as anyone in the hospital. This is not an opinion. The DSM-IV describes it as a “disorder” so there ya go… Would you blame someone for having bi-polar disorder and tell them to ‘choose’ to stop being stupid?
Sorry to jump on your ass but let’s be real about substance abuse…
Spleefer wasn’t trying to say AA and MGTOW are twin sisters. He just made a point that the end goals for recovering from alcoholism are similar to the fruits of going monk. Liberty, peace, being unafraid, fiscal security, spiritual relief. He has a great point.
MGTOW has a s~~~load of faults too we could drag out of the closet too. If you choose to focus on negative things, thats all you see. Nothing is black and white. Its all grey.
<iframe width=”500″ height=”281″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/6wBZUg7rVI8?start=12&feature=oembed” frameborder=”0″ allow=”accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture” allowfullscreen=””></iframe>And my point was stating its a bad analogy and I laid out my reasons why.
I know people in AA, it doesnt matter if Bill W meant it metaphorically, that is NOT WHAT AA FOLKS believe or are told. They believe its a disease in reality. They are told they are powerless to fix it, they will be alcoholics the rest of their lives, and if they leave AA, they will die.
Bill W never set this program up from a medical perspective and its based on 1930s pseudoscience and Bill’s opinions, like dianetics-type crap from the 50s. There is no standard training or accredidation of anyone in charge of local chapters or making sure everyone gets the same info and level of training. Since its inception the program only boasts a 5-7% success rate. AA does what cults do and says the failures are the fault of the people, not their program or its premises. But for 80 years through all these people the program blames people for failure and never their methods or teachings. After all this time with such poor success one would logically want to lookmat the program and see if maybe the fault for such a s~~~ty success rate is due to problems within the program itself. But one cannot question AA or The Book. Because thats an attack on saint Bill W.
Plus AA has members that take advantage of others because of seniority. Plus courts sentence people who are NOT alcoholics, but are violent or sex offenders, to AA as part of plea bargain sentencing agreements. And no one in those groups are made aware that such folks are even among them.
So yeah, I have a problem with a poor ass analogy of mgtow to AA.
Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.
The thing is, you do have a choice. YOu do have free will.
Like I said above: people refuse to understand objective facts and will not accept Determinism.
We have demonstrated inarguably for decades that freewill is a delusion, scientifically, philosophically etc… It’s not an opinion, it’s as FACT as natural selection. Doesnt matter at all because people base their world view on how they feel, not facts.The thing is, you do have a choice. YOu do have free will.
Like I said above: people refuse to understand objective facts and will not accept Determinism.
We have demonstrated inarguably for decades that freewill is a delusion, scientifically, philosophically etc… It’s not an opinion, it’s as FACT as natural selection. Doesnt matter at all because people base their world view on how they feel, not facts.The only way your worldview works is if there is no God. Because determinism wipes out the validity of morals. Yet morality is real and absolutes are real. And I don’t believe that for a number of reasons. Not because I don’t have a choice to or not because of my unique arrangement of matter and hormones.
Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.
This is why I don’t want to live in this century. Because of stuff like this about ignorance surrounding freewill. It’s like living in 1300 and telling someone that the Earth is not the center of the universe and they call you an apostate and throw you in a dungeon.
The ongoing defense of, and the belief in ‘freewill’ are directly responsible for monotheism, gynocracy, substance abuse, many suicides so much more… It’s all correlated.
The problem is that MORALITY in general, as a human discourse that we can achieve progress in, was left in the bronze age. Where stuff like medicine, engineering, technology and agriculture all developed onward into the 21st century, poor little MORALITY as a discoverable and guiding science, has been guarded and beguiled by monotheistic delusionaries for 5000 years plus. Any intellectual can see that we have achieved some semblance of a moral civilization in spite of religion, not because of it.
The issues we face today as a species are all linked to moral ignorance. In fact, MGTOW itself is due to moral failings in society. Mgtow is a reaction to the clashing of technology with biological imperatives; the clashing of women’s contraception/abortion technology with sexual dimorphism (hypergamy ‘biology’) Feminism is just politics/memes that are also a form of technology. Women are animals whose biological tuning is being thrown out of whack by modernity and we all suffer for it. This is due to MORALITY as a discoverable Objective Science being held hostage in a state of infancy by religitards.
In the early 20th century when industry began to take off, and the first feminists started ranting in the American 1920s… that was when Objective Morality should have been studied and we should have abandoned the Church’s toxic form of morality. The sexual repression in Christianity led to women rebelling in the first place. It empowered gashes to get stuff like the 19th Amendment passed. Whereas we could have proved scientifically and with biological facts, that women shouldn’t be given those types of powers (for their own good and for ours) but noooo, the Church HAS TO HAVE ITS BRONZE AGE WOO WOO ETHICS… So what happened? Church attendance fell like coat sales in May… and with it, went all adherence to ethics on any level and we got anarchy and the 1970s. The Church’s Puritan moral crap was always going downhill in popularity. When it was abandoned, there was no logical alternative.
And the hypocrite Christians, what is their response to the 70s. 80s, 90s and more..? They have the audacity to say that we need to return to Christian Ethics and Christian living. BUAHAHAHHA! Your moral lunacy is the reason we have a failing birthrate! We could have prevented all this by allowing a SCIENCE OF OBJECTIVE MORALITY to take root a century ago!
Morality is a discourse as navigable as say, Medicine. What is the solution to the common cold? Well it’s not bleeding them out. You give Tylenol since Science tells us this helps a lot better. What is the solution to the well being of animals like humans? You govern them according to the parameters of their biology to ensure their best possible well-being. This is all that morality is, not some didactic sky-oppressor’s 10 Commandments. Even though Sam Harris is a big cuck, he wrote The Moral Landscape. Its the most underappreciated book to have come out this century.
That’s all I have to say for today lol.
After all this time with such poor success one would logically want to lookmat the program and see if maybe the fault for such a s~~~ty success rate is due to problems within the program itself.
AA was never meant as a cure for alcoholism nor is it intended as treatment. It never advertised. It never charged admission. YOUR SOCIETY says those things, but IT doesn’t declare any of that. AA’s success rate is irrelevant because it’s not a treatment for alcoholism, its a soft religion loosely affiliated with Protestantism…
If AA was meant to treat alcoholism, then the 1st Step would be, quit drinking. The 2nd step would be don’t buy alcohol. The 3rd step would be don’t go to bars…etc…
You’re burning down a decent social institution, a free resource for people who are going through s~~~ty times. But do you blame the faux Mountain Health Retreat that charges $1,200 a day to ride horses and get massages? Is that supposed to cure alcoholism? Give me a break dude.
I never denied that AA is a religion. Many courts have already decided that rightfully. AA never solicited a court to have them send a bunch of drunks to the doorstep with probation papers to sign. Yet, we humbly allow them to take up space in our rooms even though we DO have a requirement for membership that is being violated, a desire to stop drinking. (its a low bar but still a threshold) Those people, many of which have zero intention of quitting, are not chased out. Nor are they charged for being there. Its a program of attraction not promotion.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. If you understand this properly, it’s basically saying — if you drink, don’t come in here, we can’t help you. AA is for people who have already stopped drinking, not for people who are still guzzling c~~~tails. Notice how in my first comment, I said I was struck sober? I didn’t choose to stop drinking. Sobriety happened to me. I was lucky. Most others are NOT lucky.
Whatever man. You want to bash a good thing, go ahead.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. If you understand this properly, it’s basically saying — if you drink, don’t come in here, we can’t help you. AA is for people who have already stopped drinking, not for people who are still guzzling c~~~tails. Notice how in my first comment, I said I was struck sober? I didn’t choose to stop drinking. Sobriety happened to me. I was lucky. Most others are NOT lucky.
Sorry to repost but this is a valid comment against MANY people who are confused about Alcoholics Anonymous, even many of the members themselves LOL
This is why I don’t want to live in this century. Because of stuff like this about ignorance surrounding freewill. It’s like living in 1300 and telling someone that the Earth is not the center of the universe and they call you an apostate and throw you in a dungeon.
The ongoing defense of, and the belief in ‘freewill’ are directly responsible for monotheism, gynocracy, substance abuse, many suicides so much more… It’s all correlated.
The problem is that MORALITY in general, as a human discourse that we can achieve progress in, was left in the bronze age. Where stuff like medicine, engineering, technology and agriculture all developed onward into the 21st century, poor little MORALITY as a discoverable and guiding science, has been guarded and beguiled by monotheistic delusionaries for 5000 years plus. Any intellectual can see that we have achieved some semblance of a moral civilization in spite of religion, not because of it.
The issues we face today as a species are all linked to moral ignorance. In fact, MGTOW itself is due to moral failings in society. Mgtow is a reaction to the clashing of technology with biological imperatives; the clashing of women’s contraception/abortion technology with sexual dimorphism (hypergamy ‘biology’) Feminism is just politics/memes that are also a form of technology. Women are animals whose biological tuning is being thrown out of whack by modernity and we all suffer for it. This is due to MORALITY as a discoverable Objective Science being held hostage in a state of infancy by religitards.
In the early 20th century when industry began to take off, and the first feminists started ranting in the American 1920s… that was when Objective Morality should have been studied and we should have abandoned the Church’s toxic form of morality. The sexual repression in Christianity led to women rebelling in the first place. It empowered gashes to get stuff like the 19th Amendment passed. Whereas we could have proved scientifically and with biological facts, that women shouldn’t be given those types of powers (for their own good and for ours) but noooo, the Church HAS TO HAVE ITS BRONZE AGE WOO WOO ETHICS… So what happened? Church attendance fell like like coat sales in May… and with it, went all adherence to ethics on any level and we got anarchy and the 1970s. The Church’s Puritan moral crap was always going downhill in popularity. When it was abandoned, there was no logical alternative.
And the hypocrite Christians, what is their response to the 70s. 80s, 90s and more..? They have the audacity to say that we need to return to Christian Ethics and Christian living. BUAHAHAHHA! Your moral lunacy is the reason we have a failing birthrate! We could have prevented all this by allowing a SCIENCE OF OBJECTIVE MORALITY to take root a century ago!
Morality is a discourse as navigable as say, Medicine. What is the solution to the common cold? Well it’s not bleeding them out. You give Tylenol since Science tells us this helps a lot better. What is the solution to the well being of animals like humans? You govern them according to the parameters of their biology to ensure their best possible well-being. This is all that morality is, not some didactic sky-oppressor’s 10 Commandments. Even though Sam Harris is a big cuck, he wrote The Moral Landscape. Its the most underappreciated book to have come out this century.
That’s all I have to say for today lol.i agree mgtow is in response to lack of morality and/or warped secular morality.
but if you knew christianity you would see mgtow is in the bible. the bible has at least 15 places where it discusses negative traits of women, and tells men not to get involved with women who have these traits.
The fact is christianity doesnt just blindly say men have to suck itmup and deal with s~~~ty women, it tells men to avoid contact with these women. There’s a lot of practical info in the bible that supports mgtow, and not worshipping pussy above all else, maybe you just never realized it. The apostle Paul has some sobering things to say about remaining single. It is there.
Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.
I agree to a point Agent,
There is plenty good and bad in the Bible. And there is plenty Good and Bad in AA too…
You took a big dump on AA dude so I got a little defensive about it.
There are perverts and sex predators in all social institutions. That’s like saying BSA is f~~~ed up because a few gay scout leaders. Does that diminish the value of scouting? I get it, you may not want to send your boy there for that reason… but if there may be a pedo-mo-fo at band camp or space camp too.
There are so many bunk attacks in this thread aimed at AA, Ive heard them all before. They were made popular by a s~~~lord name Orange Papers. https://12stepcultreligionexposed.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/orange-papers-archive-here/ Looks like the original Mr. Orange went AWOL so some other s~~~christ reposted all his s~~~christ attacks at AA lol… bulls~~~ about why its a CULT and whatever. I f~~~ing read it all before.
Ive been an atheist alcoholic a long time. And Ive been a sober one a long time so Ive dealt with both up close and personal. So why would a devout ATHEIST like me even screw around with an obvious “CULT” protestant religion like AA? Because its a useful social group where spiritual cleanliness is promoted. I may not be a big fan of Christianity’s moral monopoly but its far and away better than moral deficit celebrated by feminists and secular society, like San Francisco style…
I even helped start an AA group for Atheists. There are MANY of them out there. https://aaagnostica.org/ is a site that directs you to MANY non-believer AA groups and literature.
So I helped start one in my city. Guess why I dont go to it… Instead I go to one of the most staunchly religious ones. Because when you start an Agnostic AA group, guess who shows up to it. A bunch of god damn liberal lesbians and cucky Hipsters Democrats. They aren’t agnostics at all really, they just hate Christians or Republican or both…. They give real atheism a bad name. Im a conservative. I have arguments and reasons for my stances. I go to Christian AA because they have a level-headed grasp of reality and virtuous living (atleast one that is more reasonable than the psychotic leftwingers).
Anyway. You may know a few people in AA. You also can parrot a few attacks on it, but you lack the benefit of having read ALL of it’s literature top to bottom like the Traditions and all the back story and more… also you haven’t attended different meetings in different cities for many years.
Each group is VERY different. Some are just like you say, a cess-pit of criminals, perverts and mentally deranged (but a trip to the grocery store is also ripe with people like that, theyre everywhere)… But other groups are VERY USEFUL for people.
Anyway. AA on the whole, from a critical view, is as good a force in the world as any religious body. If you bash it, you may as well just be a misanthrope against everything, like full on Carnage style
AA is a Cult, its true. So is Christianity and MGTOW and the Alt Right and everything else with two or more people agreeing on something… LOL.
Anyway, no ill will. I like the spirited argument today. I drank a s~~~ load of coffee this morning and let you have it. SORRY BROTHER. lol have a good night!
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