A Few Words in Favor of Fiat Currency

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Guys there is no point in attempting to educate you. You have gone on for 14 god damn pages in the last thread and will not listen to any reason from people that understand better. Now here you go trying to tell me about living on a farm, and you haven’t done it. Troll all the f~~~ you want, you just dig your hole deeper and deeper.

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Beer wrote: Oh my bad, I misread it…but at the same time globalization and companies shipping jobs over seas has been going on during the same time period you are look at as well. If a company builds and sells tvs here, its no trade deficit, but when that company moves to China, builds them in China, then sells them here…trade deficit.

I think it has more to do with a that aspect than us having a fiat currency, especially considering pretty much all our trade partners have fiat currencies and inflation just like we do.

I understand what you are saying — correlation is not causation. A better, more detailed explanation of my position of how the gold standard balances trade (at the cost of higher domestic unemployment) can be found Here or elsewhere. Since I view the current trade and budget deficits as unsustainable, this is another reason I favor it. But I’m not a zealot about it. And I concede it’s a trade-off — higher unemployment/lower money supply. It is inarguably a DIFFERENT outcome than that with fiat currency.

Well I just rebutted it above. The trade deficit is simply us buying more s~~~ from other countries than we sell, if just us, or the world was on a gold standard this wouldn’t change. Yeah maybe the number attached to it would be smaller but it would still represent the same imbalance, but its because high labor costs and taxes have been chasing manufacturing jobs away for decades…and once they leave they still continue to sell us their products…its just they are paying some chinese or mexican guy 15 dollars a day instead of 15 dollars an hour, they are paying less taxes, dealing with less regulations, and can turn around and sell there s~~~ here for the same price whether they make it here or abroad.

I respectfully disagree. The link above does a better, more detailed job of explaining it, but if you can’t print money, you have to export gold to pay for trade deficits. Physical gold, transported in ships or over land. And your country’s money supply goes down. I’m not arguing foreign labor is not at a competitive advantage; however, I am arguing trade will balance if money can’t be generated out of thin air. I realize Austrian economics and libertarian thinking are deemed extremist. And adopting a gold standard immediately, across ALL countries, would be a poor choice, you would have immediate high unemployment if we had fixed exchange rates and a gold standard with low labor cost countries like Bangladesh. So any adoption of such a scheme would necessarily have to be gradual.

I understand consumption taxes are regressive. I tend to favor tax policies that encourage saving and investment. I also like that there are fewer loopholes. Even a combined system wherein the first $5000 of [consumption] taxes was refunded, would be better than what we have now in my humble opinion. That way it wouldn’t hit the poor so hard. I think we already have consumption taxes to encourage/discourage behavior, e.g. cigarettes, alcohol, etc — but in my opinion it’s more of a money grab by government than anything. And all that tobacco settlement went into the general fund rather than cessation, anyway. But I don’t want the nanny state having a separate tax for chocolate, fatty foods, wine, etc — rather a general consumption tax across the board.

At a philosophical level, I disagree with ‘percent’ taxes, i.e. I make more, they take more, on the grounds that I’m not receiving any more *services* from the government and have no more VOTES on outlays. Doesn’t seem like an equitable trade to me, but I concede my views on that are extremist.

As for higher ed, I have a degree from an ABET-accredited institution (accredited for about 80 years). I’m going to disagree with you about this also — ABET is a PRIVATE entity. ABET is a non-profit NGO. They accredit engineering programs. I went to a public university (and concede, taxpayers paid ~2/3 of my tuition invisibly). But I see no reason why private schools cannot choose to be subjected to accreditation… Any intelligent student should know to check what a school’s accreditation is before attending. I guess I could make a similar argument that government should run all our factories to prevent fraud — but are markets or central planning most efficient?

[Jan SobieskiParticipant 28791]

* Jan argues that gold has industrial value which has nothing to do with the argument or the article (SURVIVAL value, not industrial uses, nobody is arguing that gold doesn’t have industrial uses… and good luck producing electronics in a subsistence agrarian economy).

…has nothing to do with the argument or the article… that’s me!
My statement was factually true. Whether it was relevant to the discussion is immaterial.

Love is just alimony waiting to happen. Visit mgtow.com.

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Snake wrote:

FrankOne you are a f~~~ing idiot. “Pecans are harvested by a large expensive machine”. Look at this f~~~ing egghead. Seriously? LOL, f~~~ing guy has never picked up a pecan in his life.

I have worked for one of the largest pecan companies in the world. I think I know how they are harvested, and it ain’t by a f~~~ing machine, idiot.

Most pecans are harvested mechanically. You can find that out in 30 seconds with a Google search. Link Read the first line… slowly.. ‘Today, most pecans are harvested mechanically’. And that is hardly an anomaly; 98% of Texas pecans are harvested mechanically — this is how it is done on a commercial scale. Texas

The fact that I HAVEN’T worked on a farm or in Agribusiness, and have never harvested a single pecan from an orchard, yet know more about this than you, speaks volumes about your credibility. Stop insulting people and present something called EVIDENCE for your claims.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

The fascist FrankOne wants to tax us. What a surprise, especially after he disagrees and distorts simple living. A company man to the bitter end.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Snake wrote:

Guys there is no point in attempting to educate you. You have gone on for 14 god damn pages in the last thread and will not listen to any reason from people that understand better. Now here you go trying to tell me about living on a farm, and you haven’t done it. Troll all the f~~~ you want, you just dig your hole deeper and deeper.

Lol…hey guys, listen to me, I know better, even though all I can do is call you all names!

So you get this farm…how do you get your animals to it? Are they going to come in on a trailer?

Animals get sick, you call the vet, hows he get there, drive in a car?

If you have any equipment on that farm, what’s it going to run off? Diesel? Where does that come from…a tank on your property a truck drives on public roads to come fill up for you?

If you produce extra, what are you going to do with it? Just say f~~~ it and let it rot or transport it and sell it?

You see…all those things require use of public roads, which your property taxes fund. I’d like to assume you’ve at least had a k-12 education, and your property taxes fund that for the next generation since someone else had to fund it for you. If someone was stealing or breaking your s~~~, I bet you’d call the cops…and property taxes fund local cops.

Its not that we refuse to listen to someone who “knows better,” its just that its painfully obvious you live in fantasy land. If you’ll excuse me now, the cows knocking on my door, I think its time for my daily cheese platter.

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Snake: 98% of pecans are harvested mechanically in Texas.
http://www.cipm.info/croptimelines/pdf/RSpecan.pdf
‘Most pecans are harvested mechanically’ — you can learn that with a 30 second Google search, it is how they are produced on commercial orchards. http://www.alabamapecangrowers.com/pdf/hhg.pd for Alabama — That’s the facts.

Instead of posting videos, and insulting people with endless ad hominems, I would suggest you do some *RESEARCH* before posting. And own it when you’re wrong. Instead of using argument from authority (‘I’ve worked for one of the largest pecan companies in the world’), try citations from REAL authorities. You will be more convincing. You will learn. Look at the CIVIL discussion (and disagreement) I’m engaged in with Beer as an example of positive discourse.

The fact that I am not a farmer, have never worked in Agrisbusiness, and yet know more about this than you, speaks volumes about credibility.

As for fascism, look up what it means in the dictionary, THEN decide if I meet the criteria… It’s hard to be a fascist when your views are pro-small government and isolationist… The last message I posted called for not voting for people but for voting directly for budget outlays on an individual level…. and voting for % of GDP that government should comprise… Hardly fascist policy… Think about it.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Snake wrote:

The fascist FrankOne wants to tax us. What a surprise, especially after he disagrees and distorts simple living. A company man to the bitter end.

And the leech Snake wants to benefit from the road and services other people pay taxes to provide without paying any taxes himself. We all know roads never need maintenance, as long as your town is using that new self healing tar they just came out with, right? And who the hell needs any cops or fireman, vigilantes and a few neighbors throwing buckets of water on a burning building do just fine.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

98% of pecans are harvested mechanically in Texas.

Oh s~~~, I thought that planter’s peanut guy just knocked on your door and delivered you a nut platter every day, right after the maintenance free cow delivers a cheese platter.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Jan Sobieski wrote:

My statement was factually true. Whether it was relevant to the discussion is immaterial.

The sky appears blue to us because light rays from the Sun are refracted by passage through the Earth’s atmosphere and the blue rays are refracted downward the most.

Factually accurate but totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Maybe that’s an interesting strategy for getting noticed at a c~~~tail party but wouldn’t go over very well in a serious round table discussion.

If you want to talk about the industrial and medical uses for gold, start a new thread. We’re talking about whether gold is a “commodity” that has practical survival value to the common individual and can therefore back a paper currency or has no practical survival value and is therefore a fiat currency in itself.

Did you have any thoughts about that you’d like to share with us?

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

I don’t need to look s~~~ up. I collected the pecans as they came in. People pick the pecans up and sell them to the plants. It’s a good thing I don’t live in Texas? You want to talk about more s~~~ you have not a clue about?

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Justifying property tax because roads? I will do without the roads, without the cops, and without the firemen, or whatever the f~~~ else you can come up with to try and rob me of my wealth “for the greater good”.

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Snake: 98% of pecans are harvested mechanically in Texas.
http://www.cipm.info/croptimelines/pdf/RSpecan.pdf

‘Most pecans are harvested mechanically’ — you can learn that with a 30 second Google search, it is how they are produced on commercial orchards. http://www.alabamapecangrowers.com/pdf/hhg.pd for Alabama — That’s the facts.

Instead of posting videos, and insulting people with endless ad hominems, I would suggest you do some *RESEARCH* before posting. And own it when you’re wrong. Instead of using argument from authority (‘I’ve worked for one of the largest pecan companies in the world’), try citations from REAL authorities. You will be more convincing. You will learn. Look at the CIVIL discussion (and disagreement) I’m engaged in with Beer as an example of positive discourse.

The fact that I am not a farmer, have never worked in Agribusiness, and yet know more about this than you, speaks volumes about credibility.

As for fascism, look up what it means in the dictionary, THEN decide if I meet the criteria… It’s hard to be a fascist when your views are pro-small government and isolationist… The last message I posted called for not voting for people but for voting directly for budget outlays on an individual level…. and voting for % of GDP that government should comprise… Hardly fascist policy… Think about it.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

It’s no use, fellas… clearly some people here have no interest in participating in a reasoned and civil discussion. It would appear we’re being trolled.

I’m prepared to accept that I’m simply not going to get a rational counter-argument to any of the assertions made in the original article I used to start this thread. I doubt anyone has even read it, whether they would agree with some or all of it or not. Oh well.

I believe that each person chooses to live in the world that matches their mental and emotional state and will defend their view of the world to the death with whatever tactics said defense requires. Given some of the sad, angry and irrational views that have been advanced here, I welcome them to it.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Pro tax = Pro slavery
Slavery = Fascism

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

You damn right I have no intention of a civil discussion. There was a discussion going on in another f~~~ing thread, f~~~~~. You wanted to divide and conquer and make another topic. GET F~~~ED.

[Jan SobieskiParticipant 28791]

Whether it was relevant to the discussion is immaterial.

If you find it irrelevant, NP. Just wanted include some facts into your economics discussion. I don’t know enough about money to make comment on that.

PS…technically it is called rayleigh scattering. Some people erroneously call it the Tyndall effect, but that is wrong for the obvious reason.

Love is just alimony waiting to happen. Visit mgtow.com.

[Anonymous 24]

Notice he started a new thread because he was beaten so thoroughly in the other one. This n~~~~ is runnin on fumes.

I haven’t even looked at his stuff in other threads. Also, I love how he dodges my real bullets. This guy is Neo. I will restate a few things and I am out for good on any topic started by Doc on this matter. I also wonder who Doc works for at this point.

1) Fiat money enables wars to happen and be endless.
2) The “Federal” reserve is not run by our government, it is a private bank, never audited a single time in 102 years of its existence. How can one owe ones self money??? And how can something be part of the government without a single audit?? Especially the BANKING SYSTEM!
3) Nationalizing our banking system as did Iceland would be awesome.
4) Gold backed currency would also be a great idea.
5) Interest on money borrowed from a nationalized banking system would go to the government, there would be no such thing as the government running a deficit and owing a central bank money, this is absurd.
6) We can do what I said above or we could go to a gold backed free market banking system where entities with money would compete with one another. All that would be needed is policing of monopolies and collusion.

Finally I would like to say that FIAT money gives out of control governments cart blanche to run amok. It is literally the single most important thing to do away with on this planet. For the sake of all mankind it must stop. It is a fantasy world, literally numbers on computers and paper. Numbers which in 102 years have never been known to the public. Not a single audit. No idea where money goes. Every day your money becomes worth less and less because of this system. It is a system that is designed for control and growth. All of the growth goes to the top, and you are all controlled.

I am out Doc. Have fun with whatever you are trying to do here for whoever you are trying to do it for.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Snake wrote:

Justifying property tax because roads? I will do without the roads, without the cops, and without the firemen, or whatever the f~~~ else you can come up with to try and rob me of my wealth “for the greater good”.

Lol, as you are wearing clothes that were delivered via roads, eating food transported via roads, etc. You can’t live without this s~~~, its too entrenched in society…if you really want to strip down naked and go run off and live in the woods.

As soon as you get some kind of little hut set up out there for shelter send a post card to the cow so he can deliver you a cheese platter every day. Oh wait…mail gets delivered over the road too, scratch that idea.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Exactly – scratch all your ideas, and if I decide I want any of that I will VOLUNTARILY pay the fees to have a road installed. See the difference, between choice and no choice? No, you wouldn’t because you are a happy slave or slave-owner.

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