A Few Words in Favor of Fiat Currency

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

[BeerParticipant 11832]

He’s saying all markets are gamed from the top down and what you call capitalism is a form of fascism, in reality. We live in a fascist nation, and not because trump wants to close the border.

Actually the labor glutting from the open border is the fascism.

Well considering fascism is very loosely defined you can pretty much claim any amount of capitalism is fascism. What’s the alternative, not allow any private ownership of property?

[QuietlyquietlyParticipant 728]

Beer wrote:

Survivor wrote:

He’s saying all markets are gamed from the top down and what you call capitalism is a form of fascism, in reality. We live in a fascist nation, and not because trump wants to close the border.

Actually the labor glutting from the open border is the fascism.

Well considering fascism is very loosely defined you can pretty much claim any amount of capitalism is fascism. What’s the alternative, not allow any private ownership of property?

All markets ARE gamed from the top down, and to think otherwise is naive.

There is no such thing as property ownership anymore – you continue to rent your property from the State in the form of rates and property taxes, even once your mortgage is paid off. If you don’t pay, your property can be confiscated and sold underneath you. That shows you don’t freely own it. Fascism is here. Wake up!

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

It doesn’t matter what type of chocolate they coat the poison in; you can call it communism, socialism, fascism, etc but in the end they are all just different names for the exact same thing: Oligarchy. Despotism.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Beer wrote:

Well considering fascism is very loosely defined you can pretty much claim any amount of capitalism is fascism. What’s the alternative, not allow any private ownership of property?

I’ve already explained this. Capitalism will always transition to Oligarchy. It doesn’t matter if you call it fascism, communism, socialism, etc. Your question about private property makes no sense, since we’ve already explained to you that private property *ALREADY* does not exist, considering you must rent property that you supposedly own else have it confiscated from you. See, they tell you what to believe, and then you do. Take out the magnifying glass and *actually* look at the legislation. You don’t even have to be a lawyer to understand that people should

A. Not have to make payments on their own property.
B. Be able to homestead on property that is uninhabited.

These A/B components are what built capitalism in the first place. It is the use of government and legislation by greedy psychopaths that always ruins it for everyone. In the beginning, shots were fired, and people raced to claim the uninhabited land. (After the genocide of native americans, of course.) In Oklahoma, we called them “Boomers”, or “Sooners”. Then, when they claimed the property, they did not have to also continue making payments on it. Do you get this very simple concept now? Along the way, legislation was passed to allow confiscation of land and property from subjects to enable the oligarchs to purchase them from “the state” (themselves) for almost nothing. Buy low, sell high. Have a look at the VERY FIRST plank of, the ten planks of communism, and think about it:

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

http://www.soonersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=208806115

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

In other words, in the end, the welfare recipients aren’t actually the problem. The *real* problem is, that they are required by law to acquire currency, in order to subsist. None of you could claim that recipients of the benefits of printed money, was a burden to you, if they weren’t FORCED to be a burden to you by law in the first place. Furthermore, I’ve already explained that nothing is actually budgeted from your taxes. The labeling of printing money as a loan, creates the justification for the financial clamp in the form of using tax to pay interest on the “loan”, which again, isn’t a loan at all but rather the printing of money. If they *could* go and live on an uninhabited land, and hunt, fish, or grow their own food without being required to pay the state in order to so, then you could tell them to go to hell, and likely they would be glad to finally have independence. Independence is against the law. These laws are what compel you into the work force to begin with. The system intentionally forces people to conform to whatever the market needs, else die. If that’s not slavery, I don’t know what is. I would like to see freedom return to the land. I would like to see voluntary participation in the economy, instead of compulsory.. and I would like to see a genuinely free market. A free market is a fairy tale though, as long as psychopaths exist. I’d like to see families actually own their land, and be capable of growing their own food. I’d like to see us once again have a right to “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

[FrankOneParticipant 1420]

Beer: Damn good question! Gold is self-regulating. In other words, if there’s more demand, it stimulates mining. As additional gold is produced, its price drops, reducing mining. Gold is very difficult to produce. Over half of production goes to jewellery and industrial uses. Production is relatively low at ~2500 metric tons. Total gold mined in history is ~185,000 metric tons so the increase from new production each year isn’t that great. This is a very interesting site to look at: http://gold-standard.procon.org/ Abandonment of the gold standard is only ONE aspect of what’s wrong with our economy; it allows for easier manipulation of the money supply. It isn’t a be-all and end-all solution to everything. And Gold isn’t necessarily the best commodity to base it upon.

I also wanted to note, we didn’t have ANY significant trade deficit under the gold standard. This is another VERY important point to make — gold reduces balance of payment deficits.

<iframe src=’http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=ustbtot&v=201512101703m&d1=19150101&d2=20151231&h=300&w=600′ height=’300′ width=’600′ frameborder=’0′ scrolling=’no’></iframe><br />source: tradingeconomics.com

Veriversum: I agree with you, you don’t have true property rights in the USA due to property taxes.

As for the welfare recipients, the workhouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse used to be the solution. And the idea that most welfare recipients would hunt, fish, and support themselves if only allowed to settle on uninhabited land? Yes, many would become self-supporting if we cut them off. But no changes in tax policy are needed; they can get a job in the market economy, just like saps like me do! I’ve known men who pitched a tent along the river in a rural area, and subsisted doing odd jobs and foraging for ginseng. Let’s just say that guy was in the EXTREME minority…

I’m not sure I’m being ‘forced’ to participate in the economy, but I’m certainly paying a heavy PRICE of taxation to participate. As for families raising their own food, I think that is a very inefficient means of production. I’m much better off in terms of labor hours, doing my Engineering job and going to the supermarket for fruits & vegetables than I am with a small garden raising my own, planting, tilling, weeding, watering, picking, fencing, canning, etc.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

Beer: Damn good question! Gold is self-regulating. In other words, if there’s more demand, it stimulates mining. As additional gold is produced, its price drops, reducing mining. Gold is very difficult to produce.

So in other words, you are backing up what doc has been saying. We would still have inflation with gold, just more controlled inflation…which is no different then a fiat currency with good fiscal policy that balances the budget and doesn’t excessively expand the money supply. Is it the fiat currency that is bad, or the people elected/appointed to run things that are the problem?

FrankOne wrote:

I also wanted to note, we didn’t have ANY significant trade deficit under the gold standard. This is another VERY important point to make — gold reduces balance of payment deficits.

Actually, this is not true.

The first chart represents spending as a % of GDP. The second represents federal debt as a % of GDP. Notice how they relate. For most of our history federal spending was less than 10% of our GDP and we really only had significant debt during times of war as spending spiked. Is the problem with our national debt due to getting off the gold standard, or that our current federal spending as a % of GDP has steadily been for decades at the same level it was while we were in the middle of WWI?

FrankOne wrote:

you don’t have true property rights in the USA due to property taxes.

Its the price you pay for not living in anarchy. Yeah nobody likes to pay taxes but I bet you want road leading to your property, schools to send your kids to, a fire department in case you have a fire, police so people can’t just come and vandalize and steal your property with no repercussion, etc.

I think our government is way bigger than it needs to be, but at the same time I recognize we all have to throw a little something in the pot to keep things running, and unless you want to live in a war torn or lawless area with no government you aren’t going to get away from this.

FrankOne wrote:

I’m not sure I’m being ‘forced’ to participate in the economy, but I’m certainly paying a heavy PRICE of taxation to participate. As for families raising their own food, I think that is a very inefficient means of production. I’m much better off in terms of labor hours, doing my Engineering job and going to the supermarket for fruits & vegetables than I am with a small garden raising my own, planting, tilling, weeding, watering, picking, fencing, canning, etc.

I definitely agree with you here. Society is essentially a giant assembly line these days because its more efficient. If you weren’t “forced” to participate in the economy what’s the alternative…go work 10 times as hard being 100% self sufficient? People who did this hundreds of years ago when the country was being settled worked a hell of a lot harder and worked more hours than people do today…not mentioning their concept of retiring was dieing. No thanks, I’d rather go work my scheduled shifts, if I work extra its overtime, and I can actually accumulate wealth when I have a good year, rather then a good year being an extra sack of flour in my pantry.

[Cipher HighwindParticipant 1144]

I do not trust paper money, therefore I will not save in any instruments denominated in paper money, including stocks, bonds, certificates of deposit, &c, nor will I save in paper money itself by putting it under a mattress. The only thing that I trust are the properties of matter, namely that it will not spontaneously degenerate. Based purely upon said properties, paper money is not a store of wealth as the Federal Reserve regional banks pay people to dispose of shredded money. Best for one to keep one’s money in silver (65%), gold (31%), and platinum (4%); my allocations are in parenthesis.

Beer, whose eponymous beverage is as foul as his arguments, presents a false dichotomy between anarchy and what amounts to forcible integration in to the economy. The latter is achieved not only through land taxes but building codes, sanitation codes that criminalize doing one’s business in the woods, and hunting and fishing regulations that prevent one from feeding one’s self. The “services” that are allegedly funded through property taxes run the gamut from shoddy (government roads) to the services whores receive from pimps (cops) and the services captives receive from kidnappers (schools).

His are the words of what Survivor would call a “mentally bankrupted neocon” from the other fiat currency thread, but personally, I would wager they come from drinking too much fluoride.

As for myself, if I am to remain integrated in to “society”, I will make it as costly as possible for the powers that be by gorging myself at the public trough yet staying lean by converting the bulk of it in to gold. This way, they cannot use access to said trough as a bargaining chip, thus I remain a free man.

There are many things that may cost a man his freedom. One is a woman, either through guile or spawning. Another is avarice whereby he makes decisions without regard for long-term strategy. Finally, there is greed whereby he pursues affluence and in turn becomes trapped and domesticated as he sees no other life outside of the plantation. I grew up on the plantation but became feral having seen it for what it really is.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

I can tell you have never worked a f~~~ing day in your life on a farm, Beer. You have never hunted, either. Work hard? Yeah, it’s real hard work picking up some pecans on the ground and cracking them and eating them. Dumbass.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

So hard walking out there and grabbing some eggs. Chickens s~~~ them out every god damn day. Please…just shut the f~~~ up.

[FrankOneParticipant 1420]

Beer: N.B.: Please re-read my post. I stated we had no TRADE deficit under the gold standard rather than no BUDGET deficit — the trade deficit shot through the ROOF after ’71 as the Austrian economists predicted would happen, and I stand by that conclusion.

As you are aware, budget and trade deficits, are completely different animals. I am well aware we have had [Federal] budget deficits during wartime & debts can take decades to pay down. The budget deficit is going down now, since we’ve had somewhat of a recovery. The gold standard will NOT prevent budget deficits, but will make them more visible, because bonds would have to be sold to the public rather than generating fiat currency.

Also, I posted the correct URL to the trade deficit plot in my last post (i.e. you can copy & paste it into a browser), but I didn’t make a clickable link, here is the same URL as a clickable link: Balance of Trade since 1950

I’m saying you’d still have modest (1-2%) inflation with the gold standard — the ‘inflation since 1775’ plot I posted is certainly strong evidence of this opinion, as I see it — that’s what we had. The gold standard is a stabilizing force that limits mischief/manipulation by our apparatchik Dear Leaders. It is not some panacea that cures all economic problems & I’m not trying to make it out to be such. I’m also not wed to gold, a basket of commodities, even including land, is workable and will reduce the mischief. I also believe there is a strong case to be made that the gold standard limits TRADE deficits, a point that I haven’t yet seen rebutted.

As for the self-sufficiency of the yeoman farmers advocated by Thomas Jefferson & Veniversum, the inefficiency would be so great, that the current world population would simply be un-sustainable without economies of scale. We’d certainly be eating less meat and it would be subsistence existence.

I’m not an anarchist, but I’d like to see privatization of a lot of services, such as schools and roads. Indeed, rather than a ballot for ‘asshole A’ or ‘asshole b’, I’d rather fill out a survey each year stating what % of GDP I want government spending to comprise, and then fill in percentages for each of several hundred items, e.g. I click ‘roads 10%’ and specify ‘50% of that to roads within these two locations’, etc, my totals adding up to 100%, and my tax rape could only go into those funds. An interesting alternative to modern politics. I could still leave a certain percent, say ‘1% discretionary’ that the Elected Asshole could allocate at his discretion, contingent upon how many bribes/briefcases of cash and prostitutes were sent up to his or her office.

Personally, I’m dead-set against property taxes and favor consumption taxes, on the grounds that there is no true property ownership with these taxes. Further, they primarily fund the public brainwashing institutions (schools), a sector I believe we desperately need market forces/competition in.

I’m not going to make fun of Beer’s moniker, I think it’s a great screen name, though I’m not a drinker.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Snake wrote:

I can tell you have never worked a f~~~ing day in your life on a farm, Beer. You have never hunted, either. Work hard? Yeah, it’s real hard work picking up some pecans on the ground and cracking them and eating them. Dumbass.

Snake wrote:

So hard walking out there and grabbing some eggs. Chickens s~~~ them out every god damn day. Please…just shut the f~~~ up.

Lolz, my dad’s family owned a dairy farm, I still have some family that actively farms, and I’ve become good friends with a 70 something year old local guy over the years that still farms.

You have to be around twice a day to milk the cows, which unless you just have 1 cow turns into quite the chore. You are talking several hours a day, twice a day for an actual farm that produces a surplus, and its not something you can just say f~~~ it, I’m taking the weekend off, I’ll milk them on Monday. That’s just to milk them…it also requires time and effort to feed them, keep them clean, keep them sheltered, keep their shelter clean, and keep them in good health.

The older fellow I know that farms grows corn. Its nonstop labor to plow the fields and plant, and then pick corn throughout the year. No way in hell is it a one man job even with modern technology and tractors.

Even chickens…one of my uncles keeps a dozen chickens. Again…its daily work…feed them, keep them sheltered, clean up their s~~~, etc. Obviously you’ve never cleaned out a chicken coop, its pretty f~~~ing disgusting.

If you wanted to not participate in the economy you’d have to do all that by hand. Plus you’d have to process and store whatever you are producing so when winter rolls around or you have a bad year you and your animals don’t just starve to death. Its not like you have a cow in your back yard…he’s going to come ring your doorbell every morning and hand you a cheese platter, a stick of butter, and a gallon of pasteurized milk.

Yeah farming lol…its just…go outside and pick up an egg and a pecan and call it a day. Its just about as easy as grocery shopping, right?

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

I’ve slaughtered cows, and hogs, for months. You are full of s~~~. Cows graze on grass. You don’t have to do s~~~. You don’t have to keep them clean, or sheltered, or feed them anything other than a f~~~ing salt block that lasts a long time. I don’t need to shoot holes in the rest of your s~~~, like I said, I *KNOW* you haven’t worked a god damn day on a farm. Pose all you want f~~~~~, I know better.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

Please re-read my post. I stated we had no TRADE deficit under the gold standard rather than no BUDGET deficit — the trade deficit shot through the ROOF after ’71 as the Austrian economists predicted would happen, and I stand by that conclusion.

Oh my bad, I misread it…but at the same time globalization and companies shipping jobs over seas has been going on during the same time period you are look at as well. If a company builds and sells tvs here, its no trade deficit, but when that company moves to China, builds them in China, then sells them here…trade deficit.

I think it has more to do with a that aspect than us having a fiat currency, especially considering pretty much all our trade partners have fiat currencies and inflation just like we do.

FrankOne wrote:

I also believe there is a strong case to be made that the gold standard limits TRADE deficits, a point that I haven’t yet seen rebutted.

Well I just rebutted it above. The trade deficit is simply us buying more s~~~ from other countries than we sell, if just us, or the world was on a gold standard this wouldn’t change. Yeah maybe the number attached to it would be smaller but it would still represent the same imbalance, but its because high labor costs and taxes have been chasing manufacturing jobs away for decades…and once they leave they still continue to sell us their products…its just they are paying some chinese or mexican guy 15 dollars a day instead of 15 dollars an hour, they are paying less taxes, dealing with less regulations, and can turn around and sell there s~~~ here for the same price whether they make it here or abroad.

FrankOne wrote:

Personally, I’m dead-set against property taxes and favor consumption taxes, on the grounds that there is no true property ownership with these taxes.

You are going to pay one way or the other, and consumption taxes are going to place a much heavier burden on the working poor than the well off. I could make 100k next year, live cheap because its what I do, and pay almost no taxes. Let’s just say I live off 20k a year and horde the rest…its like I only pay taxes on 20% of my income. Meanwhile some guy who only makes 20k and needs it all to survive gets the same tax burden I do? That’s pretty messed up.

I’ve never been a fan of consumption taxes, especially considering how they can be used as a tool for controlling your behavior. What happens when you get some asshole in charge who doesn’t like donuts, so he places a 900% tax on donuts? No more donuts for you.

FrankOne wrote:

Further, they primarily fund the public brainwashing institutions (schools), a sector I believe we desperately need market forces/competition in.

That didn’t work out so well with out college system. We just ended up with people getting non-accredited degrees that were worthless when they went into the working world, and in some cases colleges closing down and people stuck with 3 years worth of credits they couldn’t transfer anywhere. I take more issue with the curriculum schools push these days than the actual way the schools themselves are ran and funded. Even if we went to a private system its still going to be regulated by the government to ensure they are teaching a certain curriculum, teaching up to a certain standard, and everyone is going to end up getting vouchers to cover the cost so we don’t end up with half the country too broke to send their kids in for a basic education.

Its a sticky situation though…yeah I dislike some of what the government imposes upon schools but at the same time some regulation is need to ensure diplomas and degrees represent a certain level of education regardless of where they come from.

[FrankOneParticipant 1420]

Snake: I own a grain farm, albeit, no livestock is raised there. And it’s passive income, so that makes me an inherently evil Oligarch 🙂 I’ve never operated a large tractor, combine, or other equipment, funny how I know more about farming than you do…

Cows graze on grass most of their life; the vast majority are then sent to industrial feedlots where they gain the last ~400 lbs fed roughage, grain, supplement, and premix. And most are slaughtered at slaughterhouses. Cows must be sheltered in the wintertime in colder climates. You must pay rent for grazing OR own the land. You must account for yardage costs. You have to pay the feedlot…

It costs money for land and fencing, and you must water the cattle.

‘Chickens’ don’t ‘s~~~’ eggs out, HENS do.

Picking up pecans? Pecans are HARVESTED by a large, expensive machine that shake the tree, and another machine sweeps them off the ground. The trees require a great deal of water in drier climates or whenever there is a drought.

Since all this came from somebody who doesn’t even farm (I’m an engineer), your credibility just went in the s~~~ter. Stop engaging in name-calling and try contributing to the discussion civilly.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Snake wrote:

I’ve slaughtered cows, and hogs, for months. You are full of s~~~. Cows graze on grass. You don’t have to do s~~~. You don’t have to keep them clean, or sheltered, or feed them anything other than a f~~~ing salt block that lasts a long time. I don’t need to shoot holes in the rest of your s~~~, like I said, I *KNOW* you haven’t worked a god damn day on a farm. Pose all you want f~~~~~, I know better.

Lol…yeah…that cow just knocks on your door every morning with a cheese platter, stick of butter, and gallon of pasteurized milk. They don’t require a barn or a fence for shelter, protection, and keeping them contained. I guess since you have no need for a barn you wouldn’t have to clean the s~~~ out of it though. Guess you wouldn’t need a fence either…its not like cows would ever roam off or get dropped by wolves. Just wondering…what do they eat in the winter, just lot’s of salt blocks, or are you going to say haying is no work required as well?

The day you slaughtered that cow, was it before or after it delivered you its daily dairy platter? Did one of the other cows butcher it up nicely for you, or did the pig butcher it up and clean up the mess for you before you turned around and slaughtered the pig? Oh s~~~…who butchered and cleaned up after the pig? Did he pre-butcher himself to make it easy for you? I bet you were just roaming around picking pecans the whole time all this was going on lol.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

Dude the argument that we have been going on about is getting f~~~ing LAND and to not have to pay property tax on the f~~~ing land we own. Assuming you own the f~~~ing land, it is *nothing* to put cows hogs and chickens on it. I know. You aren’t telling me s~~~ – I’m telling you. Real f~~~ing clever guy, “I’ve never done any of this s~~~ but I know more than you after you have slaughtered and fed cows, hogs, chickens, and horses, for months to years. This is the god damn problem – morons like you that never done a f~~~ing thing telling wiser men how s~~~ is.

[SnakeSpectator 2080]

FrankOne you are a f~~~ing idiot. “Pecans are harvested by a large expensive machine”. Look at this f~~~ing egghead. Seriously? LOL, f~~~ing guy has never picked up a pecan in his life.

I have worked for one of the largest pecan companies in the world. I think I know how they are harvested, and it ain’t by a f~~~ing machine, moron.

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