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High Roller 3 years, 1 month ago.
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Anonymous3How did we get to the state of society we have today?
In my opinion the fault lies in the progressive mindset.
A definition of progressivism is: “a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition.”
Let us start by an idea we take for granted, that “the present is an improvement of the past, and the future will be an improvement of the present.”
This notion only exists after the renascence, where a new humanist vision replaced old notions that had lasted for centuries. Before such time, the normal concept was “the present is a decline from a great past, and the future will be a decline from the present.”This might not appear important, but it is. This simple idea was the origin of the “progressive mindset”. You see, if we are better than past generations then our ideas are better and should replace past ideas. In contrast, when we thought present was a decline from a glorious past, we would cherish past concepts and philosophies.
When the past lost its relevance, people started discarding old wisdom. New thinkers would create a new philosophy for the new times. The concept was that young people, armed with these new ideas, would create a better future than old people, trapped in archaic and spent ideas.
But since books where the only agent of change, and people had to be raised by a family, the “old ideas” still had a grip on mankind. Change happened, but it was slow.
However something new happened with the appearance of cinema, radio and television. Children were able to receive the new ideas when growing up. This single handedly created the “conflicts of generations”, where young kids had ideas in conflict with their parent’s mindset.
The educational systems further attacked traditional values and ideas. Change was happening at a faster and faster rate.
The internet accelerated these changes, and now parents do not even live in the same world as their children.
Therefore we can redefine what it is to be “progressive”, it is: “to think that purely intellectual concepts translated into reality will be better than whatever practical concept was working before.”Ideas are only as good as their results when translated to reality. The trouble is that people take property of ideas, identify with them, and refuse to accept when they do not work. If an idea “looks” good, if it “sounds” good, and if it “feels” good, then we risk seeing them being implemented time and time again, regardless of the fact that they don’t work!
And from a simple “progressive” stance, we entered a new level, where change MUST happen! We are all suffering from neophilia, the constant need for something new. Many times things have to change only for the sake of change.
We are constantly being pushed into this neophilia state. The consumerist society will say that we need new stuff, even if we are replacing perfectly good and still useful things.As a consequence, old people are now obsolete. The society appears to care only for the young and progressively caters younger people. There was once a time where old people were valued, because they had experience of the world and could PREDICT THE FUTURE based on similar experiences of the past. Now, the whole society is changing at such fast pace that parents require their kids to interpret the world for them. That is a total inversion of values.
The fact that we can get away with so many non-functional concepts is the result of the energy replacement of human work. It takes only a small percentage of people doing useful work to provide for everybody else. In this scenario we can be playing with unworkable ideas, but we are shielded from the consequences.
However, it is the very human being that is being destroyed in the process. Mental capacity is not improving, but regressing. People are no longer have some of the basic mental skills our ancestors possessed, less alone the capacity to work or endure difficulties.
Knowledge is at an all-time low. The fact that people can articulate one or two sentences about a subject is taken as true knowledge, good enough for someone to express an opinion with confidence.
The value of knowledge is also very low. When everything exists for free in the internet, then we tend to forget the effort required to attain such knowledge, and we tend to operate on the “what we need to use” instead of full understanding. Complexity demands it, we are becoming specialized.However there are limits.
As they used to say at “theoildrum”: if you think it’s possible to have infinite growth in a finite world, you are either crazy or an economist.
Growth is stopping.
Population growth has stopped, and the social welfare that is dependent of it is becoming unsustainable. So, governments are importing population from the third world, forgetting that these people lack the training to be of any use in our society. Trained and skilled labor where always received by legal emigration, but these recent illegal emigrants are just more weight on the welfare.
Economic growth has stopped. This is a consequence of energy becoming expensive, but doesn’t mean it’s coming to an end. There will always be oil underground, because at some point it will be too expensive to extract it. The economy is based in energy, so all things get more expensive. To offset this loss of purchasing power we are using debt, but it only goes so far as people believe it will ever be payed.
The planet’s resources are getting exhausted. Something like 23% of the planet biomass is allocated to humans.
Human progress has stopped a long time ago, what we have now is only technological progress. But that is supported by human mind and will, and these are threatened. It will come a time where our level of technology will become unsustainable. When we fail technologically, how far will we fall?
So, the time for playing games with unfeasible ideas is coming to an end.
Reality will deliver us a wakeup call. Most people are not prepared for it, and they have little to no real life skills. Primary amongst these are women, which have taken advantage of this progressive mindset to impose a gynocentric society that panders to every single one of their hedonistic ideas.
I write this as an alert for each one of us to start analyzing our own “progressive” ideas. How contaminated are we with unrealistic notions that would not be of any use when the SHTF?
I see the progressive mindset as a form of cultural marxism. A philosophy already covered in previous posts on this site I believe so no need to go into details. I agree that society is geared towards the young as they are the future ecconomic units and are also easy to fool by polititians and corporate consumer aspiration interests.
When I was young in the 80’s I would seek out the knowledge of the old guys I worked with for advice. A common piece of advice was “don’t get married, and if you do get married, don’t have kids” Another common statement by the older guys was that “Politians are all the same”. I didn’t realise how true that was until years later.
As regards the future, well, with energy running low we can’t always rely on stripping the earth’s resouces and burning them for profit. There needs to be a revolution in terms of supply and demand as the current system is redundant and wasteful. Eventually we are going to have to leave this planet and search the universe for new resouces and a new place to settle.
I think things will get worse before they get better. It will take a societal collapse to bring about any meaningful change. I hope the pioneers of the new society will learn from our mistakes and take humanity forward.
That’s what I would call a real Progessive Mindset.
It's Time to get Wise
Excellent analysis of the “Bentham” effect. Things started to go wrong when the Enlightenment lost ground to Jeremy Bentham and his acolytes the latter day Fabians. The one word missing from you text that would be the icing on the cake is “hubris”.
People arrogantly believe that their little techno/gadgets will compensate for all things…wrong. Kids today do not even know how to write in cursive.
I have a friend who is into everything new when it comes to technology and I tried to make the point simple for him. I asked him what do you do with the old gadget when the new gadget takes its place? Off into the trash heap—with a full turnover of “stuff” about every three years. I told him I had just finished restoring a 1911 Mauser C96 broom-handle and you know what? Its just as deadly today as it was in 1911, and it will still be deadly in 2111, after thousands of your gizmos have bitten the dust.
Modern reliance on constant technological improvement and the belief it will solve all problems forever is a modern day tower of Babel. God has special contempt for arrogance and hubris. His judgement will not be an easy thing for these fools to swallow.
The tragic poetry of the “progressive mindset” is the progressives mistakenly believe they are part of the “workers revolution” (the communists) that Karl Marx talked about in his teaching.
This could not be further from the truth. The progressives are the ones that Karl Marx railed against, as the few that took everything from the many workers. Whether they stole the wealth of the workers through crony capitalism, government taxation, or religion, it did not matter. They stolen from the working class.
The true, original communists are those of the working class. The people that Karl Marx considered to be communists were those of the working class. The farmers, miners, factory workers. Those who produced and maintained society were in Karl Marx’s view as communists.
Karl Marx did not consider the intellectuals, the actors, the politicians, to be communists. Far from it. These were the rich classes that Karl Marx was against.
The original communists are those that are for tradition (outside of religion), sovereignty, culture. Karl Marx railed against the rich stealing and destroying the working classes. The working culture. The working people that make nations great.
It is possible to be a communist and support capitalism in a limited degree. The problem Karl Marx had with capitalism was that capitalism lead to monopolism that was controlled by a few individuals.
Though, almost no one on either side will admit it. The true communists of the U.S.A. are the Trump supporters.
The Workers of America have united behind Trump. They have overcome the propaganda of the the rich. And they overcame the voter fraud to win the election and elect Trump.
And should the “progressives” achieve stealing the election through this recount mess, the “progressives” may create the “workers revolution” they have desired. Only the “progressives” will learn too late that they are the ones on the outside with the true communists of the revolution coming for them.
WOOF…
LILITH IS THE HEAD SUCCUBUS AND SHE LIVES ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
Anonymous3I had just finished restoring a 1911 Mauser C96 broom-handle and you know what? Its just as deadly today as it was in 1911, and it will still be deadly in 2111, after thousands of your gizmos have bitten the dust.
Yes, because it was made to last. Today things are made with planned obsolescence, and their life is getting shorter by the day.
If we suddenly lose the ability to replace stuff, we will end up with nothing in a short amount of time.Modern reliance on constant technological improvement and the belief it will solve all problems forever is a modern day tower of Babel. God has special contempt for arrogance and hubris. His judgement will not be an easy thing for these fools to swallow.
Amen!
You catched the sense of what I was saying. We lack humility towards the past, the world, God and life.
We became indeed enamored with our ideas and technology (and I am a tech guy myself). We fail to see their limits… Our limits…The future will be biblical, either Babel or Sodom and Gomorrah.
The one word missing from you text that would be the icing on the cake is “hubris”.
I would never use the word… I had to look it out.
It goes to show how much I dont know.Yes, I do admire the old scholars that would embarrass us all.
And I respect and admire people like you and others in this site, that rise above the present day lowest denominator culture.
Anonymous3The true, original communists are those of the working class. The people that Karl Marx considered to be communists were those of the working class. The farmers, miners, factory workers. Those who produced and maintained society were in Karl Marx’s view as communists.
I had never taught about this, but you are right. It was the “oligarchs” that seized the communists ideals.
Lenin established a “dictatorship of the party” because he concluded that the workers where not politically evolved.
This is what is happening today, the intelectual “elite” believes that it knows better, and anything else is populism.
What these intelectual yet idiots fail to see is that they are acting in self-interest, just like the workers are acting in self-interest.This where is many political systems fail, they forget that people act in self-interest. Always have and always will.
To the progressive mindset, this is a serious sin. They cannot conceive anything other than people sacrificing themselves for a greater good, like all these poor migrants from Africa that should be taken care in Europe and the US.
When in reality, all that was necessary was to stop plundering economically other countries, so that everybody might live decently in their own birthland. And if their culture is such that they hurt themselves, then they should live with the consequences of their actions.
A man should be independent and self-reliant. A nation also.
But we have big brothers and sisters, and we are treated like little children. And indeed our people has become infantile.
eh. I don’t have a big problem with progressive ideas in themselves, just in how blindly they are pursued without really thinking about the actual consequences. Really, it seems that people lack critical thinking skills and lack of perspective in generally, and it’s conservatives as well as progressive.
Seriously, how can people look at all the changes we’ve had over women’s rights, sexual identify, and sexual freedom, and not tie it directly to the downfall of family. People are so enamored with their freedoms and the ‘feel good’ about not being judgmental that they fail to see the cost. They want the rich to pay for their entitlements without considering that if you ask too much, they just might go away. We are so concerned about our red team or blue team that we never stop to think about the high possibility they our team doesn’t have it all right….or that some things really are a matter of opinion, not fact.
Ok. Then do it.
This where is many political systems fail, they forget that people act in self-interest. Always have and always will.
And that is why the situation is so dangerous right now.
Though, some good news Philadelphia finished their voluntary recount this afternoon: http://billypenn.com/2016/12/05/the-philly-recount-is-done-and-it-didnt-help-hillary-much-at-all/
Not vote changes for Trump, Stein, nor Johnson. And they only found five more votes for Hillary. That means that it is likely no automatic recount, which requires a vote margin of less than 0.5% which Trump has tens of thousands more votes than that.
Also, people are finding out the machines did a better job at ballot counting that humans. Because most of the voting issues in the Wisconsin recount are by human error.
And Jill Stein is trying to get the federal court to force Pennsylvania taxpayers to pay the 7 million for the recount, over a week after the recount deadline. If that happens, the ruling will be appealed and it will not make the Pennsylvania state government happy with Jill, or her handler, Hillary.
. I don’t have a big problem with progressive ideas in themselves,
You are right on! People accept new “ideas” without thinking. They accept them only because they are new without ever considering any other value. All it ever has to be in “new” so it must be progress…so goes the inking of the masses. I realize this is true every time I hear some ignorant self righteous SJW slam the men who drafted the Constitution. We aren’t hardly fit to scrape the mud off the boots of those men. I can’t think of a single living person in recent memory that is their equal.
Yes, the farther away that we get from our food the worse it becomes.
The farther from independence the worse it becomes.
All societies in the end break down from a reliance of plenty.
Beware of the entitled masses with pitch forks. They will progress until they have destroyed everything and taken it all.
I have seen the progressives…I have what they want. I have to willingly give my life to them because I am a racist, evil, old white filthy deplorable sexist pig. I don’t deserve to live because I am less than a human in their eyes. Their cold red fire burning eyes of the devil must destroy all and plunder in order to survive.
Peace brothers
Progressivism can only ever work long term if the whole world lives in the same illusion. This is all it is, in the minds of the left, while the right see a very different reality. This is why the illusion is now falling apart, and why the left can’t see or understand why. They have become irrational and closed minded to the real world.
Ever since the human race began there have been pockets of illusion created by man. So called progress for some, is absurd to others. Just as well or the whole planet would become a rather large echo chamber.Women are so bad, if they changed the law so I kept the house, I still wouldn't marry one. I'd rather be homeless.
Yes, the farther away that we get from our food the worse it becomes.
This explains why farmers tend to be the most personally responsible, level headed, and patient people there are.
The big things that turn me off of the progressive mindset are…
1. They have no concept that nothing is free. They think the government can give everyone “free” healthcare and college, yet they never stop to think what has changed in the last 10, 50, 100 years with healthcare and college costs that is making them so unaffordable for the average person…instead they just want the government to dumbly throw money at systems the government is responsible for breaking and wonder why they continue to spiral down the s~~~ter.
2. No concept of personal responsibility. Everyone wants to point a finger somewhere for their f~~~ ups. If you are black its because of racism, if your are women its because of sexism, if you are gay its because of all the haters, if your young its because of old people, if your old its because of young people, if your fat its because of healthy people…it just goes on and on with them.
3. Almost all the “progressives” I know in real life just want to see policies that will benefit them financially and they are lazy, greedy people. I know a few who are very well off who I honestly think just want to help people…but for the most part progressives of my generation are just morons buried in student debt who think debt forgiveness will be good for society somehow. However…none of these people can explain how them getting tens of thousands of dollars of student debt forgiven while I get nothing just because I busted ass and paid for my college already is somehow good for me. If we both found 10,000 dollars and spent it, it would stimulate the economy every bit as much as them getting 20,000 and me getting nothing…yet they seem to think only select people should benefit from such policies while the rest of us just get to pay. They are typically the type that will bitch about their student loans crippling them but have plenty of money for at least 1 fancy vacation a year always have the newest fancy smart phone when it hits the market.
4. They love to reward bad choices. Again…student loan forgiveness here…not my fault you got a woman’s study degree from a private school in an expensive city. If you start wiping debts you just encourage people to run up all the debt they can in college knowing it will get wiped…that type of “progress” just makes things worse. Its the same for a welfare nanny state in general. We subsidize divorce and single moms, and what are we seeing more of than ever? We subsidize drug users so they can survive and support their habits without working, and what do we get more of? Jesus f~~~ morons…figure it out.
I’ve always been of the mind set that I don’t give a f~~~ what you do, and you don’t worry about what I do, and we can all get along. If we aren’t hurting each other or f~~~ing with each others property, f~~~ off and mind your own business and I’ll gladly do the same. Of course we should all display a certain level of respect in common decency while in public, but I’m just tired of progressives all too often thinking I should be paying for all kinds of s~~~ that doesn’t benefit me at all, the government shouldn’t even be involved in to begin with, in many cases is just s~~~ I’d straight up rather see not even happening, and whatever abnormal s~~~ people want to do in public has to be accepted by everyone.
We are so concerned about our red team or blue team that we never stop to think about the high possibility they our team doesn’t have it all right….or that some things really are a matter of opinion, not fact.
Nobody will have it all right in my mind unless I’m in charge lol. Realistically though I understand no party will represent me 100%…but if I pick out the 3 or 4 biggest issues I’m concerned about, its generally not hard to figure out which candidates I prefer.
Sadly though I think this is why our country is also so f~~~ed up. How many morons get into the mind set that something like gay marriage should be a primary voting issue for them…when what like 1% of the population is gays that even want married? It seems like the average person these days spends more time focused on gay marriage than something like the economy…that effects ALL of us. It just blows my mind so many people can “debate” about gay marriage but have no clue how amortization or compound interest works. Hopefully with this last election though, this is something that is starting to change, and more people will focus on the big issues that effect us all rather than focus on everything that doesn’t involve straight males with full time jobs because somehow all us hard working average Joes are the problem.
I agree totally with what Beer says.
It's Time to get Wise
Sorry, I don’t have much to add, just want to say this is an amazing thread.
A man shouldn't make his life's objective to be on the side of the majority, but to avoid finding himself in the ranks of the insane. (Marcus Aurelius)
I see the core of this ideology is ditching long term benefits for short term ones.
Take feminism as an example.
Women had their cake with traditionalism and would eat it with the mailman too but that was not enough.
Then MGTOW happened.
I see the core of this ideology is ditching long term benefits for short term ones.
Which is why any society that adopts it is doomed to fail (eventually). There is no such thing as a free lunch.
One of the reasons I love Switzerland is that whenever a socialist measure that would help some impoverished part of the population is proposed, most Swiss say: Who’s going to pay for that? The people, through more taxes? F**k off… A few stupid laws slip through from time to time, but the bulk of the idiocy is rejected.
A man shouldn't make his life's objective to be on the side of the majority, but to avoid finding himself in the ranks of the insane. (Marcus Aurelius)
I see the progressive mindset as a form of cultural marxism.
Agreed. And “progressive” is just another great word that has been co-opted in this ideology.
“Progressive” is inherently a positive word. You wouldn’t want to be “regressive”, would you?
“Liberal” is another great word. Open, plenty, etc., so at odds to those who identify as “liberal” today.
“Gay” – what a happy, beautiful word. Chosen as a definer for homosexuality. OK…
“Affordable Care Act” – good words here, affordable, care. But nothing of the sort.
No accident. Co-opt positive words, use them as universal labels, and get on with the social engineering.
Comes from here: Frankfurt and I believe specifically from this aspect of it:Linguistic Intersubjectivity
None of this has happened by accident. Note the headquartering and seeding of the leaders in academia, particularly the most liberal examples like Columbia University. An effort that could take generation to bear fruit, but I think we are there now. Take a look at who runs the California University system…
btw, I have no political science background, this is just a hobby for me, trying to understand the political forces at play in this nutty world.
Great thread, but we shouldn’t think of them as “progressives”, more like “regressives”. The fact they stole and abused a word with positive connotations should be noted. I think the turning point against this lunacy began with the advent of #GamerGate (though I was never involved, or even knew what was going on at the time). Now we’re seeing the pendulum swinging in the other direction, and no wonder the “regressives” are in full panic-mode with their “safe spaces”, “trigger warnings”, hot chocolate and blankets at college!! I hope the pendulum swings so hard it’ll get stuck on the side of realism.
"Expecting to find a decent woman on a dating site is like dumpster diving and expecting to come out with a gourmet meal." Won'tGetFooledAgain
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