The Cost of College (USA)

[FunInTheSunParticipant 8283]

Here’s an interesting debate between Peter Schiff and Diana Carew about the cost of going to college in the USA. The price of a college education keeps rising every year, and a student loan is one of the few options—if not the only option—that many high school graduates have to consider if they want to go strait to college.

I think the most affordable option would be to go to community colleges and state universities, but even these institutions have rising costs. I remember spending $100 on a textbook about 6 years ago. I’m pretty sure textbooks costs $500 to $700 per semester for a lot of full-time public college students. If a bachelor’s degree costs $40,000, I think a student loan is worth it if the degree helps that student get an occupation that pays an annual salary of $50,000 or more.

Do you think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college in the USA?

I remember Bernie Sanders wanted to make college free—just like public elementary and high schools. It sounds like a great idea to me, however, I wonder how much it would cost. If it costs as much as the Social Security and Medicare programs, we’d have to raise taxes, cut expensive government programs, or raise the debt ceiling by selling more bonds.

I heard that the citizens of Denmark and Slovenia go to college for free (via income taxes). I envy them. But then again, they don’t have a massive population (of over 300 million people) to deal with or a huge military budget.

I wish I could create an affordable university that is focused on majors that prepare students for jobs that are in demand. I wouldn’t have any fancy sports stadiums or student housing. I would spend money on buildings, classrooms, a snack bar (instead of a cafeteria), a gym, a laboratory, staff members, and not much else. Basically, most of the college classes I’ve had only required a blackboard, slide projector, desks, and a professor. It shouldn’t cost 1000 students more than $200 to take an English or World History class and pay for books and supplies. My no-frills university would have the same educational standards as the Ivy Leagues without the outrageous costs. I would try to set the tuition at $2500 per semester.

Here’s a list of some super-expensive universities. I imagine that these students spend decades paying off their loans:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-expensive-colleges-in-the-us-2017-2/#50-brown-university-1

"I saw that there comes a point, in the defeat of any man of virtue, when his own consent is needed for evil to win-and that no manner of injury done to him by others can succeed if he chooses to withhold his consent. I saw that I could put an end to your outrages by pronouncing a single word in my mind. I pronounced it. The word was ‘No.’" (Atlas Shrugged)

[MonkParticipant 16975]

Here in the UK, universities and most colleges were free. There were maintenance grants too.

The were a number of problems with that system:

Politicians used universities as a means of skewing the unemployment figures. In effect, raising the school-leaving age.

Hordes of useless idiots saw further and higher education as a taxpayer-funded party and a means of avoiding employment.

Worthless qualifications and dodgy institutions proliferated, devaluing the whole system.

Eventually, the cost to the state became unsustainable. There had to be change. Grants were abolished, tuition fees and student loans were introduced.

It’s still a mess.

In my opinion, key subjects (medicine, for example), should be free and grants made available. In return, graduates should required to serve for a certain number of years.

[AwakenedParticipant 35200]

Educating the Masses has become BIG BUSINESS !!

MANY People are being “Educated” for the sake of being “Educated” WITHOUT ANY REALISTIC SPECIFIC MARKETABLE JOB PROSPECTS for their USELESS DEGREE(S).

Yet, MORE and MORE people go every year working oh so hard in such worthwhile majors like: Gender Studies, Horticulture, Sociology, Literature, English, Fine Arts, Art, Art History, Animal science ETC. ETC., and for some reason at the end of it all the only thing they have achieved is a HUGE debt.

In a World of Justin Beibers Be a Johnny Cash

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Providing ‘free’ (taxpayer subsidized) education has little to do with a country’s size. It certainly shouldn’t be LESS costly for a smaller country; if anything, it would be slightly less costly for a larger country due to economies of scale.

IF we provide such ‘free’ higher education in the USA, we can expect costs to rise, just as spending per pupil in K-12, has greatly outpaced inflation. Instead, we should let job MARKETS decide what credentials matter. I suspect the markets will vote for more vocational education, and fewer worthless degrees. Another approach would be to give each child a fixed amount of money, they could spend it on a COMBINATION of K-12/college. The MARKETS then compete for the money which improves efficiency.

The reason the cost for higher education has risen, is BECAUSE of the government loans and subsidies. So even the system I’m describing, is not as efficient as one where parents and students pay the costs directly.

Also, if the PRIVATE sector provides loans, without ANY government intervention, you can bet, they will NOT provide loans to students going into fields with poor pay or marketability. All of this spells a more efficient economic and educational system.

As for the private schools, if you take a school like Harvard, the median family income of undergrads there is around $168,000, or three times the US average. So MANY of the students at Ivy League schools have rich daddies, though there are also many scholarships, so that the student population is more diverse than just the Rockefellers.

I’m not seeing huge strides in personal responsibility, personal finance, understanding of history, government, etc despite all this higher education. Indeed, I would argue it is producing lemmings and Statists — NOT individualists. Part of this is due to the progressive agenda promoted at most schools.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FunInTheSun wrote:

I think the most affordable option would be to go to community colleges and state universities, but even these institutions have rising costs.

Its really not that bad if you commute. This was the option I took, and worked full time while doing it and paid my way through without taking a dime in loans. I missed out on spring break trips and lots of parties on the weekend, but, I also missed out on the many years of paying student loans back so its all a trade off.

I just googled my community college I went to and for next semester its 2104 for a full time(12+ credit) semester. Even if after fees and books your talking maybe 3k a semester, but then you get to write it all off and claim some tax credits so you may very well get more back in your tax return than you paid in to begin with.

Anybody who has the option to live at home with mom/dad for at least 2 years after graduating high school really has no reason why they can’t at least get an associates degree without taking a loan, in most states community colleges are in the same system as state colleges so you won’t get f~~~ed while transferring to a 4 year school. A lot of people just don’t want to miss the “college experience” and miss out on all the fun though…if they want to pay for it later in life I don’t see what the problem is…I just wish they’d stfu about it when its time to pay their dues.

FunInTheSun wrote:

Do you think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college in the USA?

If they can pay for it sure, but realistically some people are just stupid and/or lazy and any sort of higher education or training is a complete waste on them. I don’t see how maybe 90% of the country having college degrees is any better than 60% of the country having college degrees if only 20% of jobs actually require higher education.

FunInTheSun wrote:

I remember Bernie Sanders wanted to make college free—just like public elementary and high schools. It sounds like a great idea to me, however, I wonder how much it would cost.

See above…its going to have massively diminishing returns. What benefit to society is it for a landscaper to have a sociology degree, a waitress to have a history degree, or a cashier to have a theater degree? “Free” college in this country is going to amount to subsidized partying for a lot of people.

If you are serious about a career though and you get an actual degree, its typically not an engineer, nurse, or accountant bitching about their student loans.

FunInTheSun wrote:

I wish I could create an affordable university that is focused on majors that prepare students for jobs that are in demand.

Those other options already exist…they just aren’t universities.
1. Military. Navy and Air Force offer a lot of training that can place you into various mechanic, electrical, and utility jobs in the civilian world with no college required. Additionally, serving any branch gets you money for college.
2. Community colleges offer a lot of great certificate and associate programs that lead to more lucrative employment than a lot of people are qualified for with the 4 year degrees they pick.
3. F~~~ college altogether and get into a trade. I’m pretty sure your average tradesman makes more than your average college grad these days anyhow. Hell I think can take like a 2 week course for a CDL and make more money driving a truck than a lot of college educated people make.

Monk wrote:

In my opinion, key subjects (medicine, for example), should be free and grants made available. In return, graduates should required to serve for a certain number of years.

This is the catch though…if you go to a reasonable college and get an in demand degree you’ll be making money afterwards and your student loans won’t be that huge of a burden. My cousin had 250k in student loans for example…but works as a dentist so given the high income the degree earns that debt load isn’t bad. Same for someone who walks away with maybe 20k in debt but gets into a field where they can expect to make 60k+ a year. The person who runs up 80k+ in debt though where a job in their field might pay 40k if they’re are lucky made a pretty bad move.

Plus we already have the reverse of that program…you “serve” by joining the military and afterwards they’ll pay for college. I know a lot of people it has worked well for…its just a lot of people don’t want to “serve,” they just want the benefits for nothing.

FrankOne wrote:

The reason the cost for higher education has risen, is BECAUSE of the government loans and subsidies.

Right…but most people are too clueless to realize the government is f~~~ing them. The colleges are f~~~ing them and the government is here to help. Its the same with our healthcare industry…insurance companies are f~~~ing us but the government is here to help. A lot of people just can’t grasp the concept that there must be some underlying policies that make the actual cost of certain things outpace inflation year after year after year, and the government just throwing more and more money at the problem to try to hide it doesn’t actually fix the problem, and eventually will become unsustainable.

FrankOne wrote:

Also, if the PRIVATE sector provides loans, without ANY government intervention, you can bet, they will NOT provide loans to students going into fields with poor pay or marketability. All of this spells a more efficient economic and educational system.

I agree. They’d probably also hold people to a higher academic standard to even qualify, which is something that isn’t done now. Almost nobody gets denied acceptance to colleges unless applying to a top tier elite school or a very specific program with limited capacity. If you just want to show up for a dime a dozen bulls~~~ useless degree its in the colleges best interest to let everyone have a seat because they make money for filling seats. If you can’t even read, write, or do math an an 8th grade level, you don’t really have any business going to college…but the colleges solution is just to offer courses equivalent to 8th grade courses and keep the money flowing. It matters not if you fail out after a semester because to the college they made more money off your 1 semester than had you never taken any courses.

[MutineerParticipant 1467]

Abolish all state funding and allow students to default on student loans, penalty-free, if they hand back their degree within 3 years of graduation. The result would be that costs come down and students would no longer be able to get loans for useless degrees.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage." - Thucydides

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

Beer writes:
I agree. They’d probably also hold people to a higher academic standard to even qualify, which is something that isn’t done now. Almost nobody gets denied acceptance to colleges unless applying to a top tier elite school or a very specific program with limited capacity. If you just want to show up for a dime a dozen bulls~~~ useless degree its in the colleges best interest to let everyone have a seat because they make money for filling seats. If you can’t even read, write, or do math an an 8th grade level, you don’t really have any business going to college…but the colleges solution is just to offer courses equivalent to 8th grade courses and keep the money flowing. It matters not if you fail out after a semester because to the college they made more money off your 1 semester than had you never taken any courses.

Absolutely! They (colleges) make more money teaching so-called ‘remedial’ courses, typically in math, but also English.

And yes, private lending institutions would likely rescind the loan if GPA fell below its criteria. And the lenders wouldn’t even sign off on loans if high school GPA and SAT scores were below their cutoff points.

I went to a Big 10 State school and earned an Undergrad engineering degree in four years. In the early 1990’s when I graduated, tuition was extremely low. Since I commuted from my parents house, I had no dorm fees. The party scene wasn’t particularly attractive to me, many of the boozers took 5 or 6 years to graduate in easy majors or flunked out. I never really saw the fascination with getting stoned all the time and waking up with a hangover.

Instead of so much focus on college degrees, there should be more focus on teaching USEFUL skills in primary school. Examples: Budgeting/personal finance (I regard this as more important than Algebra, biology, Chemistry, etc), Civics (not the bulls~~~ that passes for it that I was taught in a public high school), diet/health/cooking, and vocational skills. It would make MUCH more sense to teach vocational skills to 70-80% instead of this bulls~~~ ‘everyone must go to college’ mentality.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

I went to a Big 10 State school and earned an Undergrad engineering degree in four years. In the early 1990’s when I graduated, tuition was extremely low. Since I commuted from my parents house, I had no dorm fees. The party scene wasn’t particularly attractive to me, many of the boozers took 5 or 6 years to graduate in easy majors or flunked out. I never really saw the fascination with getting stoned all the time and waking up with a hangover.

The thing I couldn’t figure out while going to a state school was why so many people felt the need to live in a dorm when most of them could have lived at home for free. I live in a pretty small state and there are multiple state colleges…I think its literally impossible for any in state resident to live more than an hour drive from a state college here. It also seemed like a pretty popular thing to do to try to load all your courses into 2-3 days…so for most people spending stupid amounts of money to live in a dorm when they could commute saves them about 2-3 hours a week of driving for what…a 15 week semester twice a year?

At the school I went to its about 13k a year to live on campus…literally more than tuition, fees, and books combined lol. So 13k spread out over 30 weeks you’d live there at 3 hours per week worth of driving for a typical commuter…its like people paid 145 dollars an hour to avoid a little driving. A lot of people also went home once a week or so to do laundry and stuff too…so if you factor out one back and forth a week it was even less worth it.

I’ve had a lot of people tell me over the years bulls~~~ about the “college experience.” They were misguided and thought the college experience was living in a s~~~ty dorm(or an even more expensive off campus apartment), partying a lot, and going on spring break trips. I thought the college experience was the first time I got a job that actually made use of one of my degrees and I thought “f~~~ yeah…all that s~~~ was worth it.”

FrankOne wrote:

Instead of so much focus on college degrees, there should be more focus on teaching USEFUL skills in primary school. Examples: Budgeting/personal finance (I regard this as more important than Algebra, biology, Chemistry, etc), Civics (not the bulls~~~ that passes for it that I was taught in a public high school), diet/health/cooking, and vocational skills. It would make MUCH more sense to teach vocational skills to 70-80% instead of this bulls~~~ ‘everyone must go to college’ mentality.

Oh yeah…it amazes me how many people have no clue how loan amortization or compound interest works, don’t know the basics about investing or the stock market, have no clue how tax brackets work, can’t even file a simple tax return for themselves, or a whole ton of other useful things that aren’t all that complicated to understand but will help them greatly in life…but they’re all brainwashed “must go to college.” A basic economics and finance course should be mandatory in high school. For some reason they view things as art and music as important enough to require some mandatory credits in, but personal finance? Nah.

Our high schools can brainwash everyone that they must go to college…but they can’t even run like a 2 hour seminar for seniors that give them a crash course on student loans, how they work, and what they’ll be looking at for payments after that graduate…maybe show them the price differences of commuting vs living on campus, and community college vs private college. I’d like to say you would think schools would have a little more common sense…but when education has been hijacked by liberals we all know common sense and education don’t go hand in hand these days.

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