Refine my argumentation

[MenckenParticipant 693]

When I argue with people, I try to use logic and reason behind my arguments. What I want is a solid refutation so that I can intellectually hone myself, improve. Find holes in my beliefs so that I can fix them. What I am finding is that people either will not or cannot do so. Instead of presenting counter arguments, I am usually left with the typical insults or logical fallacies. Though halfway respectful, my family tends to be no different.

In a recent conversation with a family member, I was being asked why my best friend was held in such contempt after his divorce to a crazy lady. He sacrificed all the usual for her and it meant nothing. You all know the story. In summation, he was equally blamed for the nasty divorce because “It takes two to tengo.” (Terrible clique, never use it.)

Understand my family is very Christian, Catholic in this case, though I am of the protestant half. I asked if a wife cheats, its the mans fault too? I am told yes. If a wife trades up, divorce rapes you, and leaves him destitute, it is still his fault? I am told yes because he chose to marry her and if a marriage fails, then they were never truly married. I said that is retarded. If I rob you, is it your fault too? I am told no.

Perhaps I can halfway understand the reasoning under the biblical pretense that a marriage joins two people into one. Like you all discuss daily, she is an angel at first, the perfect partner. Once marriage or often times a pregnancy, that can all change INSTANTLY. I just cannot see how that can be the other persons fault too. Just about everyone with a divorce behind them can attest to this. I could not get an answer to this.

When I mentioned that most women are trashy like that, I was told that just about every friend of his is somehow happily married to the 1%. Fair response, and if that is true, then they should cherish their rare partners. The women in my family are phenomenal examples, I highly admire them. They earned my respect. I wonder how many of your married friends are truly happy and simply not living a life of servitude. What problems do they have that you do not see? I mentioned that realtors claim that 80% of home decisions are made by HER. So then I quoted scripture that a man should love his wife and she should submit to his authority. He had no response and decided that he didn’t want to fight and hung up.

I was under the impression that I am held in contempt for being MGTOW, which I can usually ignore. It is considered virtuous for priests to take vows of celibacy so that they can be more devoted to god. When I do it though, I feel it is considered to be pitiful and misguided, even though I can quote scripture saying this is preferable to God unless you cannot control yourself.

Later I thought of the perfect response. What if a man mercilessly beats his wife over pettiness, is it her fault too? For the sake of consistency he should have said yes, but then I would have likely just received “I disagree and hang up.”

Misogynist - A man who hates women as much as women hate one another.

[wyrParticipant 591]

Unfortunately, logic and reason are rarely effective on people that have an emotional attachment to an idea or ideology.

Self-improvement is my religion. Sovereignty is my god.

[SESQUI ano estParticipant 2534]

Mencken wrote:

I wonder how many of your married friends are truly happy and simply not living a life of servitude.

Even within your own family if you open your eyes and look through a red pill lens you will see many of these “happy marriages” are so much less than they should be. I have known many married people and there are very few happy marriages after a couple years.

Mencken wrote:

I asked if a wife cheats, its the mans fault too? I am told yes. If a wife trades up, divorce rapes you, and leaves him destitute, it is still his fault? I am told yes because he chose to marry her and if a marriage fails, then they were never truly married. I said that is retarded. If I rob you, is it your fault too? I am told no.

Yes, that is the zeitgeist. It is always somehow the man’s fault.

Mencken wrote:

Instead of presenting counter arguments, I am usually left with the typical insults or logical fallacies.

The key is to maintain your view in a polite way. Don’t try to convince them because you can’t. State your position as fact in such a case when they say it takes two to tango…
“Quite true that that is often the case but in this case she is clearly the party at fault and he got rooked” and move along in the conversation.

You don’t have to argue or justify going MGTOW. If you live a good life on your own people will simply be jealous of you. Living a good life as a sovereign man will be justification enough.

Everyday above ground is a good one. Everyday above ground while single...better still.

[Anonymous 5]

Character assassination is a prime weapon in women’s arsenal of talents. It always has been. Your best friend is lucky he isn’t being blamed for everything, which is the usual. In this case her behavior must have been so overtly obnoxious that her and her hive couldn’t possibly hope to blame him for everything.
When people say “it takes two to tango”, it’s not an argument, it’s a palm off. They don’t want to get involved or talk about it. They’re right in taking that view because any attempt to rationally argue with logic will leave them with the same stigma you’re now experiencing. In their case it’s probably worse because they’re probably in a “relationship” with a woman, and it’ll be another excuse for the woman they live with to nag and dislike them.

Rather than attempt to argue, it’s probably better to learn from this first hand experience. You should know full well from your friends experience that no matter how disgusting the woman’s behavior, the man will always be blamed as well. In the vast majority of cases the woman and the hive will spin it so it’s all the man’s fault.
No matter what woman you meet in future, she’ll always have the same story as to why her previous relationships have failed. It’ll always be men’s fault. You’ll be totally convinced she’s an abused/neglected angel. This is how it is, this is how it’s always been.

[sidecarParticipant 35837]

Here’s how you refine your argument: walk the f~~~ away.

Deal with your family on your terms or not at all.

Mencken wrote:

Perhaps I can halfway understand the reasoning under the biblical pretense that a marriage joins two people into one.

The bible has f~~~ all to do with the legal scam that is marriage today.

[MenckenParticipant 693]

Anonymous wrote:

Character assassination is a prime weapon in women’s arsenal of talents. It always has been. Your best friend is lucky he isn’t being blamed for everything, which is the usual. In this case her behavior must have been so overtly obnoxious that her and her hive couldn’t possibly hope to blame him for everything.
When people say “it takes two to tango”, it’s not an argument, it’s a palm off. They don’t want to get involved or talk about it. They’re right in taking that view because any attempt to rationally argue with logic will leave them with the same stigma you’re now experiencing. In their case it’s probably worse because they’re probably in a “relationship” with a woman, and it’ll be another excuse for the woman they live with to nag and dislike them.

Rather than attempt to argue, it’s probably better to learn from this first hand experience. You should know full well from your friends experience that no matter how disgusting the woman’s behavior, the man will always be blamed as well. In the vast majority of cases the woman and the hive will spin it so it’s all the man’s fault.
No matter what woman you meet in future, she’ll always have the same story as to why her previous relationships have failed. It’ll always be men’s fault. You’ll be totally convinced she’s an abused/neglected angel. This is how it is, this is how it’s always been.

A palm off is exactly what that is though he is a priest and forbidden from having a relationship. Its acceptable for him to not have a relationship, but not for me even if I am taking biblical vows. Double standards.

And yes, this women was so incredibly toxic, her credibility has been destroyed by most anyone she has met. This is mostly because she has tried to take advantage of most anyone she has met including my own family. I learned from her. Though I will not walk away from my family over petty disagreements, I can continue to not care and live my life in solitude. I can see them when I feel like it and leave likewise.

I have mentioned MGTOW to my now happily free friend but I do not know if he looked it up. Its mostly a non-issue to him, since he ignores all the women passively trying to gain his attention. He is one of those guys that can build anything and keeps even more working. He built a business, keeps fit, and loves the outdoors. Prime candidate to qualify for any trophy wife, and he ignores them.

Misogynist - A man who hates women as much as women hate one another.

[Anonymous 1]

wyr wrote:

Unfortunately, logic and reason are rarely effective on people that have an emotional attachment to an idea or ideology.

I totally agree. I have had many such arguments with people over the years, and I have never had the slightest success in convincing them of the “rightness” of my opinion. This is especially true when arguing religion or against “true believers” of any ideology.

In my opinion all such arguments are a waste of time.
If you have honestly looked at your situation, and you are still convinced that you are correct, then just let it go and build a new life, regardless of what anyone else says.

I respectfully suggest that it is your life, not theirs. We can not live according to how others want us to live. Be true to your beliefs.

In all of my experience with women, the one thing I have never heard from any woman is, “I’m sorry. You are right. I was wrong”

[Secret Agent MGTOWParticipant 22503]

Anonymous wrote:

wyr wrote:

Unfortunately, logic and reason are rarely effective on people that have an emotional attachment to an idea or ideology.

I totally agree. I have had many such arguments with people over the years, and I have never had the slightest success in convincing them of the “rightness” of my opinion. This is especially true when arguing religion or against “true believers” of any ideology.

In my opinion all such arguments are a waste of time.
If you have honestly looked at your situation, and you are still convinced that you are correct, then just let it go and build a new life, regardless of what anyone else says.

I respectfully suggest that it is your life, not theirs. We can not live according to how others want us to live. Be true to your beliefs.

In all of my experience with women, the one thing I have never heard from any woman is, “I’m sorry. You are right. I was wrong”

You have highlighted why arguing with women, and many men of today, is a total waste of time. Emotions trump logic and facts and they hate you for being factual and logical.

Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.

[CarnageParticipant 22113]

you female family members are not better they just good at hiding.
Do not be fooled.
I bet you there is a high degree of infidelity hiding in your family.
I learned this the hard way.
All women are slut if the day is right and the amount is enough.

To those following me, be careful, I just farted. Men those beans are killers.

[MGTOW_MikeParticipant 6253]

Is it a man’s fault for getting screwed over. Yes and no. Yes in the sense that his situational awareness was poor, to miss all the red flags. No in the sense that his intention was sincere.

A man can have a sincere intention, but that by no means guarantees a stable marriage.

A good Christian man, who enjoys watching some Hollywood romance movies, may try to emulate this in real life, only to realize that this is just a fantasy. Think about a typical Hollywood romance movie, where: the nice guy is rejected at the beginning by cupcake, cupcake runs to the bad boy, towards the end of the movie cupcake runs back to the nice guy and they live happily ever after.

In reality, cupcake rejects the nice guy, cupcake runs to the bad boy, cupcake runs back to the nice guy and marries him, cupcake divorces nice guy and runs back to the bad boy. It happens all too often, but this is just one of the many possible behaviors of women. I am not angry at women nor society, but I observe this behavior.

A tranquil mind is neither happy nor sad, it is uninfluenced by external conditions.

[Anonymous 3]

Mencken wrote:

When I argue with people, I try to use logic and reason behind my arguments. What I want is a solid refutation so that I can intellectually hone myself, improve. Find holes in my beliefs so that I can fix them. What I am finding is that people either will not or cannot do so. Instead of presenting counter arguments, I am usually left with the typical insults or logical fallacies. Though halfway respectful, my family tends to be no different.

What you are talking is very rare. To start with, how many people know what are fallacies?

We dont have training to learn to argue. I know, because I tried to get it.

I had 2 coursera online courses, one for argumentation and another for public speaking.
The only one usefull was the public speaking. The argumentation dwelt into building and analyzing arguments, while most people do not even consider them.

You might invest a lot of time building a logical, persuasive, and properly constructed reasoning. Yet it can be blown up with the high level reasoning:”you are an idiot”.

Why?

Because people do not operate under reason. The operate under emotions and self-interest. When they have no emotion or interest invested in the subject, then they MIGHT consider the logic.

If you think about it, logical argumentation only has a place in a book. People only read a book when they are receptive, they cannot cut off the reasoning with emotional outbursts.

The public speaking area is a totally different subject. You win by perception and by impressing your idea on the mind of the public.

Donald Trump is the perfect example of this. The man could not have a consistent line of reasoning before jumping to another subject, sometimes even out if context. Why?
Some people call him an idiot, but he was doing it on purpose, he was repeatedly dropping his points at regular intervals. He was impressing those points in the minds of the crowd. He did not care about sounding coherent or structuring the argument.

Public speaking is a game without rules. Its like war, and the most effective wins.
If we tie our hands with reason, truth and respect, them we lose.

Hence the empty chair. It is a MGTOW concept that responds to this lack of rules in our society regarding discussions over red/blue pill subjects.
The standard tactics are insults, shamming and poorly constructed fallacies. You cannot win.
The only way to address it is not playing. The empty chair represents YOU leaving the audience when blue pill speech begins.

Is it cowardice? Let me think, would I fight alone, using the rules of boxing, against a mob armed with clubs and knives? Being called a coward is only one more blue pill manipulative argument to get you to walk into a beating.

I would address the more important issue: why would you want to argue with blue pill people anyway?

Do you want to convince men to divorce their wives? Do you want women to apologize for their nature?

I would say: focus on yourself, on being happy. Nothing more matters.

As for discussions, we have this site for red pill discussions. Are you not having your reasoning stimulated by this thread?

And yet we already have enough blue pill s~~~storms as it is.

You just have to look at Sparky’s attention calling threads. The multiple “I am leaving” and “poor me” threads. Do you see any logic and reason penetrating those arguments?

No, this site is the oasis in the barren rational wasteland of this world. Dont argue with cactus, they are dry, never listen, and are full or thorns.

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