Race Realism vs. the Wakanda Principle

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

I’m in the process of trying to frame an argument and would appreciate your input, brothers.

I’m not taking a position here, merely trying to define the boundaries for a future discussion so there’s no need to tribe up and start throwing bombs. I say that because this is going to be obviously incendiary stuff.

To the best of my understanding, there are two end-zones to the current debate on race. Please confirm, correct or offer additional perspectives as you see fit.

The Extreme Right – Race Realism

This perspective is based on the concept of Scientific Racism which is defined as the belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism, racial inferiority, or racial superiority based on observable genetic or evolutionary traits.

Adherents to this theory believe that an individual’s potentials are defined by their biology and that some races of people (white, asian) are simply better than others (latino, black, aboriginal) due to biological advantages conferred by the greater degree of evolution from a common ancestor that these races have experienced.

The “so what” of it is that the “inferior” races are genetically predisposed to violence, stupidity, poverty and disregard for the rule of law and that their intermingling with the “superior” races is the root cause of most societal problems we face today.

The proposed remedy is to either physically remove them from western societies and geographically isolate them in regions where they can do as little damage as possible, to discontinue support for them in western societies in order to make western societies unappealing to them so that they will leave on their own or, ultimately, to simply exterminate them.

The Extreme Left – The Wakanda Principle

On the other side of the spectrum is the notion that people of color are equally capable and have the same potential to achieve that whites and asians do but have been historically and systematically oppressed by white people acting from a position of privilege.

I call this the Wakanda Principle because it suggests that if this systematic oppression had never existed, people of color would never have been enslaved, exploited, deprived of opportunities and otherwise prevented from reaching their full potential. It furthermore implies that in order to make up for the centuries of oppression they have endured at the hands of white people, people of color are due compensation in the form of recognition of intrinsic value, cultural deference, affirmative action and grants of aid or direct repayment in order that they may achieve the success that they were denied.

Adherents to this point of view believe that white western societies have unjustly waged war on them for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and that recapturing their rightful place in the world is a cause worthy of reciprocal violence… cultural, economic and physical, if need be.

The remedy for systematic racism is to dismantle white western culture using a process of “decolonialization” which includes elevating people of color over white people, intermarrying with and outbreeding white people, dispensing with white western political, cultural and intellectual values and confiscating or destroying the economic value and technological infrastructure produced in cultures dominated by white people.

Once again, I am not taking a side… I am just trying to fairly define the end points of the spectrum as I see it. Please offer me your thoughts and considerations. I look forward to reading them and thank you.

[Secret Agent MGTOWParticipant 22515]

Premise is wrong. It’s just wrong.

Not better. Some races tend to have higher iq’s than others. The flaw is equating the two.

Women want everything, but want responsibility and accountability for nothing.

[HermitParticipant 1121]

Not superior or inferior . Just different. Yes, science has shown us that when taken as a whole, there are some differences between the races, but all presumptions break down on the individual level.

I don't hate women. I just feel better when they're not around.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Secret Agent MGTOW wrote:

Premise is wrong. It’s just wrong. Not better. Some races tend to have higher iq’s than others. The flaw is equating the two.

Do us a favor… go back and re-read what I wrote and then explain to me what my premise was. I say my premise was “Here are the two most extreme positions on a the topic of race in this country, do you believe I am correct that these are the extremes and that I am accurately describing their positions?”

How can that be wrong?

If I were to say “Sandwich purists believe that a sandwich must be some type of savory food items between two slices of bread and sandwich anarchists believe that a Pop-Tart can be a sandwich… would you agree that these are the two most extreme positions in the sandwich debate?” and you replied “Your premise is wrong, lunch meat is bad for you!” I’d say you were either not paying attention, an incurable ideologue or mentally deranged.

Hermit wrote:

Not superior or inferior . Just different. Yes, science has shown us that when taken as a whole, there are some differences between the races, but all presumptions break down on the individual level.

Christ, people… do you not understand the difference between framing a debate and making an argument for one side of that debate?

This is why we can’t have rational discussions in the current year.

[Anonymous 12]

Races that had to develop in colder climates or as with the Europeans, the Ice Age progressed a lot more quickly than Races that lived in warmer climates, eg the Australian Aboriginals or African Zulu’s and Bushmen.

The less developed races also stuck to a hunter and gatherer role which meant that all their human resources were tied up finding and hunting for food.

Europeans and some Asian races built static societies in cities and villages rather than roaming about and basically just eating up all the food in one area before moving onto the next.

When the Europeans landed in these less developed areas they were easily able to dominate because the tribes were dispersed and not united.

If no one had ever landed in places like Australia the Australian Aboriginals would still be walking about hunting and moving on. Although their hunting practices of set fire to large tracts of forest to make the animals run out is also said to be why so much of Australia is desert.

In short Europeans and Asians are still the most developed races and the smartest. If that makes me racist than whatever.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

Okay, look. I’m not asking what you believe about race. I’m asking if you agree with my framing and that my understanding of the arguments are accurate.

I don’t give a f~~~ what you actually believe. If you believed one of these extreme positions was correct and had half a f~~~ing clue you’d keep that s~~~ to yourself.

… still waiting for someone who can f~~~ing READ. Maybe I should go to /pol/ with this. At least some of those f~~~wits can comprehend a simple question.

[FrankOneParticipant 1417]

What are you really measuring with IQ? Literacy? The ability to take tests? Intelligence is NOT just genetic. I’m an engineer; but do you think if I were raised by a crackhead I would have the same IQ score as I do, raised as I was with two caring parents in an upper-middle class household? They bought a computer for me in 1980 when it cost $1,000. When I was 10 years old.

Your original post doesn’t consider the most important cause of IQ differences: CULTURE and UPBRINGING.

Now, the minorities in my school in the ‘burbs in the 1980’s, generally turned out quite well — successful, self-supporting. They had two educated, loving parents, more often than not.

I see no issues with mixing of the races, but I also don’t view it as some social ‘goal’. I actually LIKE having different racial, ethnic, and religious groups — from food, to festivals, to hobbies — it makes life more interesting.

In many cases, affirmative action schemes have just alienated white men. A co-worker told me yesterday how he got out of the military due to ‘politics’, because a black woman, less qualified than himself, was promoted faster than him. We need to get back to meritocracy.

Cries of ‘Racism’ are used by ‘race hustlers’ on both sides to make money and gain power — whether it be Stormfront, Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton. All cut from the same cloth. Pit people against each other for your own gain. We are one race, the human race.

Sure, there are racial differences — skin pigmentation, height, etc. But having met some very intelligent AND stupid people of all races, let’s judge people as INDIVIDUALS, instead of aligning into tribes pitted against each other for some third party’s gain.

So I disagree with the basic premise of there being these two ways — I favor the third view of judging people as INDIVIDUALS based on their actions. And the premise of meritocracy instead of this binary thinking idea of EITHER White Supremacy OR all evils are caused by White Men — really two extremes of racism itself in my mind.

[StargazerParticipant 12505]

F~~~ing forget it. Thanks for nothing, dips~~~s. I retract the question. How the f~~~ are we supposed to get anywhere as a society if the mere MENTION of a point of view evokes nothing but tribalist screeching from even the most intelligent people?

I’m out. F~~~ you morons.

Hey, look over there… there’s a woman with a vagina! There’s something you know how to talk about. Have fun.

[Anonymous 12]

Stargazer wrote:

F~~~ing forget it. Thanks for nothing, dips~~~s. I retract the question. How the f~~~ are we supposed to get anywhere as a society if the mere MENTION of a point of view evokes nothing but tribalist screeching from even the most intelligent people?

I’m out. F~~~ you morons.

Hey, look over there… there’s a woman with a vagina! There’s something you know how to talk about. Have fun.

What tribalist screeching? In your own post you write:

The Extreme Left – The Wakanda Principle

On the other side of the spectrum is the notion that people of color are equally capable and have the same potential to achieve that whites and asians do but have been historically and systematically oppressed by white people acting from a position of privilege.

As I pointed out in my post but without explaining every step of the way. These tribes/people of colour whatever you would like to call them were living in the Stone Age long before Whites/Asians ever got to them.

So the notion that these people suffered or were kept back by advanced races? No, sorry. They would still be living in the Stone Age now.

[Anonymous 14]

Firstly, trying to link Right Wing ideology to race is a little suspect. A country like the U.S. that is pretty mixed up has many of the same races on both the Left and the Right, the difference is Patriotism vs. Globalism. Do you want a country with walls and regulated immigration? Or do you just want to see it dissolve as it has been into a free for all of unchecked immigration on it’s southern border? (in fact not having a wall in a way is racist, as it is predominantly one race that has easy access to the country, while others overseas have to wait forever while doing it legally). I, for example, am Far Right Wing, but am the furthest thing from a racist that you will ever find.

Now, if you were to go to Israel the story is completely different. A group of people who identify as the same “tribe” have been ensuring they have control via force for quite some time now. Racism? Well, they do all identify as the same thing that is often confused for being a race, but isn’t. Because if being Jewish is a race, then yes, they are insanely racist, but if it is not a race the cries of racism don’t work so well when they are criticized now does it? Either way, it is a group of people who identify as the same thing and want to keep their country that way via force. That is true Right Wing in the sense you try to describe here. The average Right Winger in the U.S. is nowhere near this type of thinking.

The interesting thing to take from all this is that the only country in the West that is allowed to behave Ultra Right Wing like this with little criticism is Israel, yet Jewish influence throughout the West pushes Leftist Ideology much along the lines of your “Left” description at every turn (all the while remaining relatively quiet about Israel). These two end zones you laid out, one is in practice, and the other is being pushed by the same group of people. To me this is the most interesting thing to examine in the whole mess as they are the only ones at the “Extreme Right” of your example.

Do some races excel at some things? Yes they do. Is it genetics or is it upbringing? Depends, I have studied athletes for a decade, precise body measurements for athletes at the top of their field for example. Guess what? Certain body characteristics are extremely similar in athletes of the same event/sport who are near the top. Female sprinters? Narrow hips, like men, as each stride a wider hip has further to move back and forth thus being less efficient as it has to get out of it’s own way each step a runner takes. All races possess different characteristics in general to a degree, therefore if you know what a race more often displays, you can predict that it will/can produce more of a type of athlete that other races cannot. If you know what measurements help what action you can predict an athlete’s potential based solely by a measuring tape, nothing more. Pitchers are tall because longer arms help produce more hand speed out at the end of the arm and their long stride makes their release point closer to the plate… It goes on and on…

As far as intellect goes? I think all humans are capable of great things, most of us are operating nowhere near our intellectual capacity. I would say humans are like puppies, how you raise them and what their environment is like will determine most of their mental make up in adult life. Socioeconomic status, parenting, and individual drive are the biggest deciding factors.

[PistolPeteParticipant 27143]

The right is not racist; the left is. Ask Clarence Thomas if he is racist.

[KimmurielParticipant 480]

As races go, it would be more accurate to say, that like armies, their strategies and execution of said tactics can be superior or inferior, and thus begetting success and or failure.

But nothing lasts, thus requiring constant adjustment.

"You meet a few exceedingly forsaken, Sit around the cooler refusing domestication" Aesop Rock

[GrumpyParticipant]

I must be retarded.
IMHO, yes, you are correct in your interpretation/understanding of both sides of the debate/argument.
How it is presented by both sides will always lead to an emotional response which “colours” the topic of discourse.
The issue that is often ignored is the impact that segments of humanity face due to their OWN “societal” pressures of each era and geography in question.
Add into that, the insistence of applying the morals/ethics/standards of TODAY, to an era where human history was not even recorded, only assumed that “it was like this” by “modern” intelligentsia.

There was a time in my life when I gave a fuck. Now you have to pay ME for it

[Author]

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