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NoMore 1 year, 8 months ago.
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This is a paper that I recently wrote on the subject of free will vs determinism based on the argument Dostovesky presents in Notes from the Underground. I included citations for those of you interested in the subject-matter.
Ontological Argument Against Conformity
In vast history, it seems that mass behavior is governed by what can be boiled down to a few socioeconomic factors. The reduction of the human experience to quite simply a few simple relationships is an example of utopian reductionism. It is this type of behavior that assumes that humanity is governed like simple machines that decide on cost-benefit analysis and pure logic. This type of thinking is explored by Chernyshevsky using his analogy of the crystal palace in the 1860s(Chernyshevsky). It is this point exactly that this paper explores the problem of freedom in a society of suppression.
What the crystal palace is to Chernyshevsky is a perfect utopian society built upon rational thought. Since it is in everyone’s interests to be rational then the crystal palace will naturally form as everyone becomes enlightened and educated. But Chernyshevsky does not realize that Society is nothing more than a construct of mass deception, fabricated from a vast history of absurdity.
Humanity’s best and worst are no more than cowards coerced into the role of figureheads, society makes martyrs out of all of us. Life is in service of death, and that desires are no more than fears. I fear death, so I eat, I fear death, so I sleep, I fear death, so I hide, I fear death, and so I am. We are born to this pervasive mechanism. It makes cowards of all of us. To live is a cowardly enterprise, and death is just a cowardly. Living as it is, is not living; it is no more than a form of death. If living is cowardly and so is the opposite, what choices are left?
It should be noted that this is not an absolute. But rather an observation of many instances of deception. Now deception is not necessarily directed externally, in the case of my claims self-deception is my greatest concern. External deception though important only portrays a simple reality, the deeper reality of chronic self-deception is the foundation for all of reality.
The crystal palace is fundamentally flawed because it is formed on the deception of true nature. What true nature is as Shakespeare puts it, “all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances.” (Shakespeare, Lines 139-141) This talks about the aspects of deeper cultural life that we delude ourselves into ignoring. We each don a mask for the sake of social acceptance, even if such a mask is contradictory to our true self. Often people act contrary to their deepest beliefs for the sake of some outside standard. This type of deception is the highest form of deception, self-deception. It is through self-deception that humanity finds its justifications for committing atrocities against one another. Of course, this is not without consequence, by living in an indeliberate manner we create dissonance. A strong cognitive dissonance, which arises from the contradiction of our conflicting beliefs and actions.
Human beings are governed by fear and the social contract.When given discomfort, “human beings strive for internal psychological consistency.”(Leon) Cognitive dissonance has four solutions; “Change the behavior or the cognition, Justify the behavior or the cognition, by changing the conflicting cognition, Justify the behavior or the cognition by adding new cognitions, Ignore or deny information that conflicts with existing beliefs.”(Leon) In all situations, self-deception plays a pivotal role in reducing the discomfort of dissonance. But such methods do not confront the truth, and the dissonance is merely pushed away. Though this type of thinking is undesirable, it is used because of fear. Quite simply the exquisite crystal palace is not being formed on top of education as is put in What is to be done but rather it is formed from intricately placed fear. This fear does not stop there it evolves further it becomes the authority!
Most people fundamentally do not enjoy cognitive dissonance, but they are coerced into situations that cultivate this dissonance. In the case of Nazi Germany for example, many people claimed that they did not want to hurt people; yet they acted in a contradictory manner(Milgram). While this comes off as scapegoating authority. It has been seen that authority can persuade people into doing terrible things. In the Milgram experiment, subjects acted in a cruel manner purely because an authority figure compelled them(Milgram). It shows that authority and fear hold an indelible mark on at least atypical situations. But I would like to challenge that assumption because there is powerful authority constantly acting on people even in a typical scenario. What is this fear now if not a terrifying type of all-pervading authority? It doesn’t end there because this fear seeps into all parts of our life as I will show.
When a human is born, they are brought to a world of expectations. One that starts with the desires of parents, and slowly expands to the desires of a whole structure of people. We are eventually subjugated by the will of a society built upon the bones of a massive collection of wills. There is this idea in the minds of people, that society is some esoteric concept that they inhabit.
Rather than inhabit society, we are society; this concept arises out of a need to distance ourselves from our role in society. “What is society but an individual? […] The ocean is not society; it is individuals.” (Dazai) We have desires that cannot be fulfilled without society, and if society is an individual then it is challengeable. Society is a breakable concept at that point, but that would contradict our desires. The crystal palace is nothing but a fantasy, a distraction from the truth of the deception. We live under a fear mechanism of unimaginable authority, and the crystal palace is a fantasy to escape to just an opiate for the masses
Without this will of domination “in a “state of nature”, human life would be “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”(Hobbes). This will is the greatest authority hanging as a blade over our heads, it is what separates us from history. Society for the sake of domination has portrayed those that live on the fringes as brutish and barbaric. But this belief is a mistaken one, one meant to deprive us of meaning.
Society is a contract of lies that bind individuals to an artificial life, a deceptive life that removes all meaning from existence. Life is only found at the fringes, away from convention and fear. To live according to conventions is to live a hollow life of being subjugated. Society is a product of self-deception, a massive industry of history. One where we sign away our individuality to history and become extensions of the past. Humanity has only acted in such a manner because of the will of domination and the fear of domination. This does not mean that we must depart entirely from the mechanism. Leaving for fantasies of nomadic freedom would feed into this system. The only true way to escape the system is to embrace the history. To acknowledge in the simplest manner that there is a will exerted on us. It is ultimately our choice to act as we please, in acknowledging this fact. We have reclaimed the only meaning worth having, choice.
Sources Cited:
Festinger, Leon. Theorie der kognitiven Dissonanz. Huber, 2012.
Dazai, Osamu, and Donald Keene. No longer human. Tuttle, 1990.
Smirke, Robert, et al. Shakspeare. As you like it. Act II. Scene VII. Shakspeare-Gallery, 1801.
Hobbes, Thomas, et al. Leviathan. Thoemmes Continuum, 2003.
McLeod, Saul. “Saul McLeod.” Milgram Experiment | Simply Psychology, 1 Jan. 1970, http://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html.
Chernyshevsky, Nikolai, et al. What Is to Be Done? Cornell University Press, 2014.
F~~~ off Tuna
Afinogyny.. from the Greek Afino {to abandon/ to set down/ to leave /to allow/ to let } + Gyny {Women} MGHOW’s philosophy to not engage women without “hating them”. Narcorca =Narcissistic Orca typically spouting to a bathroom mirror taking an arms length selfie ; Wallinate describes post wall females whose SMV is terminally negligible New Years resolution "To not make women happy" . Instadestitue: yet another Neologism for Men that cohabit with women that decide to pull the handle of intervention orders.
Anonymous12Conformity in itself isn’t the issue. Given most of us here have a conservative/old world type outlook I doubt we would have an issue if people conformed to a basic standard of intelligence and wanting to at the very least be people who just minded their own business.
The problem we have now is that the bar is so low a champion limbo dancer would not be able to get under it. The people conforming to Left wing insanity don’t understand that once their usefulness has run it’s course they will be carted off somewhere remote…
Conformity in itself isn’t the issue. Given most of us here have a conservative/old world type outlook I doubt we would have an issue if people conformed to a basic standard of intelligence and wanting to at the very least be people who just minded their own business.
The problem we have now is that the bar is so low a champion limbo dancer would not be able to get under it. The people conforming to Left wing insanity don’t understand that once their usefulness has run it’s course they will be carted off somewhere remote…
Conformity goes far beyond just ideology, participation in any human system is conformist. There is always an element of conformity in any social interaction. I want to articulate that it is this presence that is the dominant authority, and that authority is founded purely on the wills of people in the past. That will is not some omniscient cultural construction, but a sea of individuals with their own agendas. Such a system is therefore subject to individual scrutiny. By constantly judging the divide between the individual and the society we can further reinforce the divide versus allowing it to slowly creep in and take over.
F~~~ off Tuna
Very good rebuttal, I wonder what is it that I did?
F~~~ off Tuna
Very good rebuttal, I wonder what is it that I did?
Probably used words that are loftier than the average reading level here. While men come from all walks of life, MGTOW is still very grassroots in many ways, and responses to college-level essays can be hit & miss.
"Once you’ve taken care of the basics, there’s very little in this world for which your life is worth deferring." -David Hansson. "It’s not when women are mean or nasty that anything is out of the ordinary. It’s when they are NICE to you that you have to be on high alert..." -Jackinov.
F~~~ off Tuna
Very good rebuttal, I wonder what is it that I did?
Probably used words that are loftier than the average reading level here. While men come from all walks of life, MGTOW is still very grassroots in many ways, and responses to college-level essays are hit & miss.
I expect that much but ill will over the presentation of my thoughts? That seems rather childish, I expect above board and direct discussion among men. I appreciate the explanation.
Your opinion leans towards the goofball feminist ideology claiming anything that doesn’t idolize women, gays, trannies, et al., are “social constructs”.
We have no use for creating imaginary realities for the purpose of disempowering men or dismantling factual history.
If this is where you’re going, your troll points are beginning to skyrocket.
If you’re not a troll, this would be a good time to settle down and back off on the theses, papers and theories you might have.
Picking fights, causing division, introducing your own concepts about society is bound to cross lines among our membership.
I’m not labeling you tuna or anything, but you may be pressing things a bit here for a new guy.
Why not (for now) just spectate and PM with members who you have affinity with, rather than challenging our realities.
Your opinion leans towards the goofball feminist ideology claiming anything women, gays, trannies, et al., are “social constructs”.
We have no use for creating imaginary realities for the purpose of disempowering men or dismantling factual history.
If this is where you’re going, your troll points are beginning to skyrocket.
I think you’re misunderstanding me, my discourse has not political elements. I am explaining conformity and society, that can be applied whatever way you want but I have made no applications of this philosophy. This is about free will vs determinism as I said. Also, I hope you realize that the troll stuff you’re talking about was done by an impersonator that framed me. Look at my reintroduction thread, I was exonerated by a few members who realized it was not me. I don’t appreciate constant accusations from the moment I joined this site for merely speaking my mind in an unbiased matter.
If you’re not a troll, this would be a good time to settle down and back off on the theses, papers and theories you might have.
Picking fights, causing division, introducing your own concepts about society is bound to cross lines among our membership.
I’m not labeling you tuna or anything, but you may be pressing things a bit here for a new guy.
Why not (for now) just spectate and PM with members who you have affinity with, rather than challenging our realities.
I think you have a good point and I will listen to that suggestion. But again don’t misunderstand me, I am not picking a fight with anyone. I have no interest in that, I just believe that to understand MGTOW philosophy properly. One must start at what it means to inhabit a society against you and so I am stating my understanding of society. What I hoped would come of it was other interpretations of what I presented. But I understand that I cannot be trusted due to my supposed dubious nature. You cannot help but feel persecuted when on the first day you get framed and everyone turns on you. Then when you feel redeemed for a moment and would like to learn something there are further insinuations. I think I’ve acted with quite a lot of tact and patience, unless you think otherwise?
I understand you. I also realize you’re account was misused to spread the troll attack before.
Many groups that troll MGTOW believe in some of the concepts you are discussing as they pertain to “social constructs”.
This is their excuse to blame patriarchy for all of the ills in the world and demonize men, in general.
You are welcome to speak your mind here, but be aware that not everyone is going to be as friendly as me.
I’m only letting you know that your ideas have been spoken of before, for the purpose of discrediting and denigrating men.
You will not be well received by the “loud talkers” here.
I understand you. I also realize you’re account was misused to spread the troll attack before.
Many groups that troll MGTOW believe in some of the concepts you are discussing as they pertain to “social constructs”.
This is their excuse to blame patriarchy for all of the ills in the world and demonize men, in general.
You are welcome to speak your mind here, but be aware that not everyone is going to be as friendly as me.
I’m only letting you know that your ideas have been spoken of before, for the purpose of discrediting and denigrating men.
You will not be well received by the “loud talkers” here.
That’s where I believe that they are wrong. Just because something is a social construct doesn’t mean it’s wrong. After all, patriarchy is an evolutionary method to control hypergamy. I mean to say that a man going his own way should know exactly the kind of world he lives in and make use of that knowledge to go his own way.
If we are not aware of the society, then exiting won’t work we’ll still be participating in ways we don’t realize. Thank you for the kind explanation. I am prepared for any loud talkers, I just hope for good direct conversations and I have no intentions to cause any splits.
Anonymous38Blah, blah, blah.
I mean no disrespect. But that is what i hear now when some apparent intellectual tries to deconstruct the human experience.
An endless round of subjective opinions barely related to each other.
Going ones own way requires no deep analysis. It is simply a rejection of as many of society’s obligations as is befitting that particular individual. One must conform to some degree if someone wants to work/play within a system.
Therefore is it not a moot point?
Blah, blah, blah.
I mean no disrespect. But that is what i hear now when some apparent intellectual tries to deconstruct the human experience.
An endless round of subjective opinions barely related to each other.
Going ones own way requires no deep analysis. It is simply a rejection of as many of society’s obligations as is befitting that particular individual. One must conform to some degree if someone wants to work/play within a system.
Therefore is it not a moot point?
Simplicity is a good approach for MGTOW. For me the rationalizations I make in my mind justify my actions, could you point out where my logic seems shaky at best. It’s just how I come to decisions, but you have your own method.
Members here are rightfully discerning and a little suspicious about new members; there’s something of a vetting process we all go through as we present who we are.
But even if you’re legit, academic philosophical concepts are often met with quizzical responses on these forums. I’ve found that, by and large, this just isn’t the audience for it. If you can summarize into a practical statement that works for everyday people you are more likely to receive appreciation for your ideas. I have a degree in philosophy and as a former academician I realize what strengths that brings to the table, but getting too academic too quickly—and not very well— comes across as putting on airs. Drop it and try starting a conversation.
"Once you’ve taken care of the basics, there’s very little in this world for which your life is worth deferring." -David Hansson. "It’s not when women are mean or nasty that anything is out of the ordinary. It’s when they are NICE to you that you have to be on high alert..." -Jackinov.
I understood what you were getting at but I was warning you the “society against you” idea is what the fems are using against men. You can call that my take on that.
I can only agree with you on the “society against men” notion as it pertains to a man’s duties and obligations as provider and protector of women.
They are the patriarchal concepts that women claim we have “enjoyed” for millennia.It might have been a workable concept until women gained foothold of power in our decision making processes.
I would much rather have a discussion trying to figure out where men decided that we men could not think for ourselves and needed women to do our thinking for us.I’m sure it was long before Suffrage.
Stealth is right.
While the wordiness and lofty concepts might seem like a good idea to impress a professor, it will be lost on the MGTOW community, at large.
Just a few simple sentences will get your point across.
If you are unable to do that, you don’t know your subject matter well enough and should just leave it on the shelf.
After all, patriarchy is an evolutionary method to control hypergamy.
Feminists and by extension liberal ‘educators’ teach this.
I see the concept of ‘patriarchy’ as a bird constructing a nest for his fat pregnant bird bitch.
It Exists to build, protect and provide for the species.Funny, looking up the online definition of Patriarchy vs Matriarchy:
- pa·tri·arch·y
/ˈpātrēˌärkē/
noun: patriarchy
A system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line.
A system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
A society or community organized on patriarchal lines.- ma·tri·ar·chy
/ˈmātrēˌärkē/
noun: matriarchy
A system of society or government ruled by a woman or women.
A form of social organization in which descent and relationship are reckoned through the female line.
The state of being an older, powerful woman in a family or group.
“she cherished a dream of matriarchy—catered to by grandchildren”They define patriarchy as dead end and oppressive, and matriarchy as all inclusive, complete with “little grandchildren”.
Now why do you suppose that is?
Gynocracy
“Systematic belief that holy vagina is the beginning and end of all life for the universe, and must be stuffed daily”If women ran the world = It would become the shithole you are seeing.
Anonymous12Blah, blah, blah.
I mean no disrespect. But that is what i hear now when some apparent intellectual tries to deconstruct the human experience.
An endless round of subjective opinions barely related to each other.
Going ones own way requires no deep analysis. It is simply a rejection of as many of society’s obligations as is befitting that particular individual. One must conform to some degree if someone wants to work/play within a system.
Therefore is it not a moot point?
I’m not trying to attack the OP either but when I see that kind of academia talk my eyes glaze over.
Something about trying to make the simple sound complex makes me suspicious.
Like “race is a social construct” and then the people who like to say that go into to talk about how some races are better or worse or how some races need more support.
Well didn’t they just say race doesn’t exist? Goes for sexism and homophobia and just about anything else as well.
People tend to conform to varying degrees to the social setting or group that they belong to.
Nothing really complex about it. It just is.
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