MGTOW own group preference and circle-jerking

[Sigma LondonParticipant 37]

I’ve only been on this forum a few days and I can feel a strong sense of brotherhood here. It is a very strange feeling. This is a “safe space” for us, but I would like to inject a word of caution: a circle-jerking echo chamber is a very bad situation for us to wallow in. Currently we are all patting each other on the back and congratulating each other for our good decisions and positions.

I have not read everything here so I’m not sure if the current state of discourse reflects a circle-jerking echo chamber, but that is the impression I get so far. Conflict via reason is healthy and we are all mostly on the same page, so I am throwing a golden apple of discord into the forums. Differing positions should be encouraged and new models devised as a result. I self censored myself yesterday because of the kinship I feel for you guys and I won’t do it again.

So brothers, feel free to disagree with me.

[VileNordParticipant 766]

True, so true brother!

It is the mark of an open-minded man to entertain ideas that contradict closely guarded beliefs. Playing the devil’s advocate is a most effective way of ascertaining whether your beliefs stand upon firm ground or not.

I, just this evening in fact, was holding court with a coworker in a friendly debate over whether my logician personality was a boon or a hindrance towards intelligence. He stood firm in the belief that I am closed-minded because I employ a metaphorical logic gate when I examine a new theory or idea. He claimed that it is a hindrance to intelligence and enlightenment that I discount subjective experiences and chemical emotions when I decide whether or not the spiritual realm exists.

He claimed he is more open-minded and in tune with the nature of humanity because he has read a lot of books on mysticism and whatnot. I asked him “who are the authors of these many books you have read? Do they sit on the same side of the fence as you and simply reinforce what you already believe or do they criticize and put forth arguments that try to dissuade you?” Naturally, he said that he has never taken any of his “precious” time and devoted it to trying to falsify his beliefs.

I explained how it came about that I left religion. How I read a book by an atheist who was using reason and objective evidence to argue that there is no God. I was outraged! Surely this man could not be correct! I know God! I can feel him in my heart, my soul! How I quickly went out and read a book on apologetics, the arguments FOR the existence of God, and I was crushed to find that all the arguments in this book were nonsensical, they fell apart completely in the face of logic. I figured that if there was a God, that he had given me the intelligence to reason for myself and I therefore abandoned the notion of him.

“This,” I told my friend at work, “is the definition of an open-mind. I will entertain any notion and subject it to reason. If it fails to pass the test, it is either put into the category of bulls~~~, or the category of currently unknowable. Your litmus test consists of how a theory makes you feel, and since you feel differently at times, you are open for manipulation. Your mind is closed off to anything that would disrupt the rapturous enlightenment you think you have found. Where as, I will listen to your arguments and weigh them, you listen to mine and dismiss them outright.”

I think he is a lost cause, but I read your post mere hours after this two hour discussion and the fire is still in my belly. Please, men of this forum, keep me a float by always trying to prove me wrong. This is the crucible of knowledge, and knowledge is power.

Lust for comfort suffocates the soul

[Sigma LondonParticipant 37]

You my friend have an interesting mind. I suspect we will have some interesting arguments in the future. One of my biggest fears is my mind ossifying. I see it happening to a lot of intelligent people I know including my brother.  He was at least four times smarter than me at one point then he found his positions, generated his model of reality and was content. Now his mind has trouble accepting new inputs and is loaded with dogma. He is dying. I see owning that kind of mind as being as near to death as we can get before the end.

Anyway, re: your co-worker. I’m surprised he did not go all post-structuralist on you. I’ve had some really infuriating debates with those people. Personally I have a “standard model” of reality for the world and everyone else and a personal irrational model I use for meditation, because easy and woo-woo answers can be quite comforting some times. I don’t think a lot of people can do this without falling into cognitive dissonance.

BTW arguing with lost causes is a good way of sharpening your teeth, that’s why I still do it. Learning how to argue with stupid is really difficult. I get better at it every time it happens. Have you tried the Socratic method on an idiot? It’s really fun to watch. You can see their mind expanding sometimes.

[jambearParticipant 282]

What you say is very true Sigma London, and I agree with it. It is a problem that can crop up in any group. We start to replace our individual thoughts and opinions with those of the groups and stop thinking and just start memorizing doctrine. Unfortunately we are susceptible to this too as all humans can be, but it can be mitigated. Everyone has different views and opinions and expresses them freely. Even if we disagree on something thing in particular we never ridicule each other over it.

Everyone has their own purpose for being here and uses the group differently. I want to live the MGTOW lifestyle but sometimes it is hard to know how to apply it directly to life or if you applied it correctly. I like asking for advice on how to handle a situation or analyze my own actions to see if I could have done something differently.

But like you said this is a safe place to express your thoughts and ideas without getting hammered down for them. I know most MGTOW choose to not express it publicly because we almost always get a negative reaction or shaming for it. We get so much crap everyday that it is nice to have a place to rest your head.

[JollyMisanthropeParticipant 3356]

I agree. The thing with me is that I haven’t had a life filled with bad experiences with women, nothing even remotely close to the horror stories that divorced men have shared. Being knifed in the back by male “friends” has been the norm for me, and has created a few life changing events, one of which was having to file for personal bankruptcy while still in my 20’s.

Sure I’ve been manipulated by women from time to time but rarely ever to my own detriment, and never to any type of financial or personal ruin. Based on my experiences I could easily dismiss MGTOW’s as just being bitter men who have had a horrible experience with women and want to write them off forever and use an ideological stance to do so.

My personal affinity for the concept of MGTOW deals more with how society tries to define us as men in a manner which leads to our potential enslavement, as well as how the legal system embraces such blatant double standards when it comes to gender “equality” where justice is concerned. I can’t stomach hypocrisy, and feminism as well as those who claim to support it are mired in hypocrisy and revel in it. Having to be so preoccupied and worried about all the legal problems you could end up in if you cross the path of a vindictive woman is what bothers me more than the possibility of merely finding oneself in a bad relationship experience in general.

I don’t hate women or spend my time being preoccupied with how loathsome some of them can be, I’m just glad that I’ve spent some time reevaluating what female companionship could possibly add to my life and have come to realize that I don’t need or require it at this point in time. Like others have mentioned, this absurd idea that you can’t be complete without a significant other is just a way to create depressed, lonely guys who will settle for less than they deserve to fill this imaginary empty space inside themselves.

I don’t think any guy should be condemned or harshly judged because he wants to be in a relationship with a woman. I think our duty as MGTOW is to let other men know the possible pitfalls and consequences if they go in with their blinders on and overly romanticized ideas about love dictating their behavior.

The Children of Doom... Doom's Children. They told my lord the way to the Mountain of Power. They told him to throw down his sword and return to the Earth... Ha! Time enough for the Earth in the grave.

[VileNordParticipant 766]

Anyway, re: your co-worker. I’m surprised he did not go all post-structuralist on you. I’ve had some really infuriating debates with those people. Personally I have a “standard model” of reality for the world and everyone else and a personal irrational model I use for meditation, because easy and woo-woo answers can be quite comforting some times. I don’t think a lot of people can do this without falling into cognitive dissonance.

BTW arguing with lost causes is a good way of sharpening your teeth, that’s why I still do it. Learning how to argue with stupid is really difficult. I get better at it every time it happens. Have you tried the Socratic method on an idiot? It’s really fun to watch. You can see their mind expanding sometimes.

Your posts also relay an intelligent mind!

I have used the Socratic method before, but I try to refrain from the nihilistic ideology of “we can never know anything”. While I do believe that we cannot know anything with absolute certainty, I also believe that it is irrelevant whether or not we can. I hold a deep reverence for the Descartes affirmation of “Cogito ergo sum”; in which he concludes that whether or not reality is real, we are conscious of ourselves and therefore we exist within it. I believe it was a Terrence McKenna speech in which I heard something to the effect of “we cannot know anything, but we can know it to the best that we can know it”.

I find it interesting that you can maintain an irrational model, even if for the sole purpose of meditation. I’ve always practiced meditation as a means of reaching a deeper understanding of the “I”. By this, I aim to minimize the perception of self and all the baggage that it carries.

Lust for comfort suffocates the soul

[ncookBlocked -70]

I totally agree. There does seem to be an orthodoxy and a dogmatic way of thinking here.

[VileNordParticipant 766]

<cite>@ncook said:</cite>
I totally agree. There does seem to be an orthodoxy and a dogmatic way of thinking here.

Prove us wrong! Where are your arguments?

Lust for comfort suffocates the soul

[jambearParticipant 282]

@ncook

I do not think this is the place for you to be. If you can not add something meaningful to the conversation please just lurk an learn. Or rise to the challenge VileNord has set before you.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

No. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We’ve got healthy amount of friction and disagreements here. Just the other day a married guy stepped in started lecturing on “chivalry”. He got an earful of the opposite as can be expected:

/forums/topic/chivalry-and-mgtow/

It’s been acknowledged we have NO intention of maintaining an echo chamber. Search the forum for the term “echo chamber”

/forums/search/echo+chamber/

However I am OBLIGATED – it’s my role – to remind everyone ….
Like the internet itself, this is a place created by MEN – FOR MEN – in the best interests of MEN.

We are in the business of saving lives. Quite literally.

This is not called “circle jerking”. It is a place created by MEN – FOR MEN – in the best interests of MEN, in a world where the female opinion is otherwise the ONLY opinion. And we are tired of it. A pro-male agenda is not inherently anti-female. And it sure as hell isn’t “gay”.

You will see many agreements and thumbs up for one another MOSTLY because the marketplace of ideas is typically saturated with men being told they are WRONG. The media tells men we are stupid. We are s~~~. We are deadbeat dads. Creeps. Pigs. We are losers who can’t get laid (what a joke) and when a man hears this often enough he will start to believe it. Put a pro-male opinion in Yahoo discussion and watch it mysteriously be deleted along with your account. We have seen this happen to 50 accounts and countless posts.

You will find 13876765417654 posts of men arriving here and saying “OMG! YES!! I thought I was the only one!”. It’s the number one observation. The number two observation is the number of men who say “jesus christ! I never thought about it that way before. I agree!”. Again, this is not “circle jerking”.

A man just needs to come here and drop his story. And it will ping the consciousness of a lurker and awaken a sleeping giant who has been shielded from truths and realities the women in his life would rather he didn’t know. That’s why we have such female testimony for you to listen to of a woman – herself – saying “I’m really glad the men I know don’t listen to this”.

/audio/3-million-dollar-bitch/

Well bitches, I’m really glad to provide a platform for men where men CAN listen to it.
And if we all “agree” that is valuable information, then so be it.

Stroking each others dicks is not on the menu. Enjoy. Live long and prosper.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[Sigma LondonParticipant 37]

@keymaster. I can see that now after spending more time on the forums. It’s a very good sign. Things have got a little more heated recently.

@ncook. I would love to see some examples of dogma (genuinely). I think I’ve done a good job a testing peoples ideas here so far. I intend to go on sniping.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

I don’t mind saying the forum is VERY new. TOO new. And we are very welcoming in our attitudes. But that also doesn’t mean a man can just come in here whip out his dick and we will all join in to start pulling his pud. He should expect thumbs down too. Thrilled to see it. And every day, I am finding it less possible to respond to every introduction and thread. Water seeks its own level and it will evolve organically.

Quite Frankly, I was surprised to see myself get so many thumbs up and that’s why I have deliberately have them no longer display (removed them a couple of weeks ago). I don’t want thumbs up. I could give a s~~~ about approval. I want a marketplace of ideas. This gesture alone speaks for itself.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

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