Japan a MGTOW Indicator

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

Ive seen many posts mentioning Japan as an indicator of things to come with respect to men, women, and MGTOW. Why is this? What accounts for Japan being ahead of the “curve” if you will? And do you think their example is a benefit or a detriment to what lies ahead?

Resident cynic.

[chirParticipant]

Different origins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

The origins in American and European MGTOW are centered on socialist feminist dogma creating a male toxic legal system.  Also socialist feminists are responsible for the attitude shift of most western woman that men are walking wallets and only serve utility by serving unquestioningly women’s needs.

Western MGTOW walks away from this.  Its just too toxic.

 

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning; it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

chir wrote:

Different origins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men The origins in American and European MGTOW are centered on socialist feminist dogma creating a male toxic legal system. Also socialist feminists are responsible for the attitude shift of most western woman that men are walking wallets and only serve utility by serving unquestioningly women’s needs. Western MGTOW walks away from this. Its just too toxic.

 

Thanks for the link. This quote was odd to me:

“They are characteristically described as frugal, and interested in personal grooming.”

This sounds less like men going their own way, and more like men going gay.

Are there other/better explanations? I cant be the only one to interpret that statement that way. It also said men would rather eat grass side by side with wome…This was NEVER my understanding of MGTOW.

Im not saying they represent MGTOW, but Japan is always brought up. So I wanted to know why.

Anyway, what I read about Japanese men isnt reflective of me or what I think of MGTOW. Just curious why they are always brought up.

Resident cynic.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

I would say Japan is likely ahead of the curve facing demographic shift issues, more than other western nations.  So, that is one reason why.  I would say what you see there with the Herbivore in Japan will also pop up in MGTOW, that is the lack of a decent future (NEET), and stupid society demands.  Add the mentioned toxic legal system, impact of feminism, and other elements also, and you something that takes on its own flavor.  For myself, I believe I do have some Herbivore overtones with myself, as it is less the crappy and screwed up legal system I have been impacted of, and more of a screwed up economic structure that has made it impossible for myself to even pay back my student loans, and an IT industry that outsources work, and discards workers.  It has been a journey to the bottom for me, and I rebound.  End result with me (NEET) ends up making myself in the category of MGTOW, but by different means.

So, you definitely have a chance for, as big as the Herbivores are in Japan, MGTOW having an even larger impact on society, because the reasons are larger.  It isn’t just fixing the legal system here that will address MGTOW issue, but also the screwed up state of everything else there also.

By the way, side note, I am now looking to be landing some part-time temp retail work.  I hope I can keep the car on the road.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[DurdenParticipant 1051]

All western countries would be where Japan is right now if immigration were cut back. Death rates exceed birth rates for native citizens of western countries. The only thing covering it up is immigration. By bringing in more immigrants the countries are just kicking the can further ahead.

 

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything

[RennieParticipant]

Durden wrote:

All western countries would be where Japan is right now if immigration were cut back. Death rates exceed birth rates for native citizens of western countries. The only thing covering it up is immigration. By bringing in more immigrants the countries are just kicking the can further ahead.

It does seem more and more that the world isn’t capable of actually solving it’s problems anymore, one of the things they frequently do now, is to kick the can down the road.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

Rennie wrote:

Durden wrote:

All western countries would be where Japan is right now if immigration were cut back. Death rates exceed birth rates for native citizens of western countries. The only thing covering it up is immigration. By bringing in more immigrants the countries are just kicking the can further ahead.

It does seem more and more that the world isn’t capable of actually solving it’s problems anymore, one of the things they frequently do now, is to kick the can down the road.

You really can only solve your own problems, and maybe do something extra to help others you feel are worth helping.  I believe it is normal to presume the world is going to fix things on its own, and that somehow it works it way out, as if there is some sort of utopian determinism at work.  What you can maybe do is make a dent where you are in the universe, and if it helps enough people, then that counts. Society is always kicking the can down the road.  Sometimes it gets kicked farther down than others.  Other times, the can gets kicked well, but then it changes shape, and goes places no one expected.  The can is existing.  Cure for the can proposed can end up killing off existing or at least existing the way people can live with.

I believe a bunch of modern frustration comes from seeing that, if only something were different, and enough people did it, then we would be better off.  This is then countered with the reality you have very little power yourself.  Activists think they can rally enough people to get politics elected who can pass laws, or change the values of society by collectively ranting and tumblring and so on.  And then you have the revolutionary who wants to burn the damn system down, and assume that a society without structures they tore down will magically become better, or presume they both can destroy structures and also lead the same people they hurt to actually work together under their banner.

And then, I see you have MGTOW, which ends up having individual men saying “enough” and they will work with themselves to get better and say no to a lot of the world, marriage, etc… and get stronger, and only get involved if society cuts them better deals than they get now.  If society can’t do that, then they aren’t involved.  I do speak here about MGTOW in a bigger framework, taking what is normally applied to just marriage, to other institutions.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[sidecarParticipant 35842]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

“They are characteristically described as frugal, and interested in personal grooming.”

This sounds less like men going their own way, and more like men going gay.

There’s a LOT of misrepresentation of the herbivores. Most of it is an attempt at shaming. Some of it has leaked into wikipedia.

Im not saying they represent MGTOW, but Japan is always brought up. So I wanted to know why.

They are MGTOW. Here’s an analogy: A katana looks much different from a claymore. Which is understandable as it was developed from a different technology for a different kind of warfare. But both the katana and the claymore are swords. In the same way Japanese herbivores are MGTOW.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

sidecar wrote:

Ancientwisdom wrote:

“They are characteristically described as frugal, and interested in personal grooming.” This sounds less like men going their own way, and more like men going gay.

There’s a LOT of misrepresentation of the herbivores. Most of it is an attempt at shaming. Some of it has leaked into wikipedia.

Im not saying they represent MGTOW, but Japan is always brought up. So I wanted to know why.

They are MGTOW. Here’s an analogy: A katana looks much different from a claymore. Which is understandable as it was developed from a different technology for a different kind of warfare. But both the katana and the claymore are swords. In the same way Japanese herbivores are MGTOW.

By calling them herbivores, it is a definitely a way to shame.  It implies “not manly”.  In Japan shaming techniques are more prevalent, because of it being more collective in culture and unity.  But, things are so messed up there, that they felt the best option was to drop out completely.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[Anonymous 42]

Rennie wrote:

It does seem more and more that the world isn’t capable of actually solving it’s problems anymore, one of the things they frequently do now, is to kick the can down the road.

The road always comes to an end, NO MATTER WHAT!

IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) wrote:

Society is always kicking the can down the road. Sometimes it gets kicked farther down than others.

All the rusting steel mills and manufacturing plants in America represent yesterday’s shiny new cans, look how that debacle ended, several more American cans are about to end in a rusty abyss

IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) wrote:

By calling them herbivores, it is a definitely a way to shame. It implies “not manly”.

I respectfully disagree, they adopted the name themselves, I believe it’s true inception is that they don’t eat meat, meat curtains, or anything their women have to offer, hence herbivore, a peaceful and non engaging animal going his own way and avoiding “meat” (pussy)… I’m a  herbivore if you look at it that way…

[failure2sendParticipant 5]

I remember reading an article once about a  successful  Japanese photographer who was ‘herbivore’ – in his 30s, he had zero interest in dating or getting married, and just wanted to work and do whatever, play video games, etc. So I would consider them to be MGTOW, just of a different type, especially when you take into account Japan’s dwindling population (http://theweek.com/articles/453219/everything-need-know-about-japans-population-crisis). Most MGTOW/TRP spokesmen have talked about this event at some point.

[sidecarParticipant 35842]

IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) wrote:

By calling them herbivores, it is a definitely a way to shame. It implies “not manly”. In Japan shaming techniques are more prevalent, because of it being more collective in culture and unity.

And like all shaming methods applied to MGTOW, whether Japanese or western, it sure has backfired miserably, hasn’t it? Japanese MGTOW now call themselves herbivores, just to nip that stupid shaming attempt in the bud.

A large part of Going Your Own Way is the realization and insistence that society needs to offer you incentives, not just make demands. Shaming attempts are just demands with added disparagement and should only be met with contempt and dismissal.

[AncientwisdomParticipant 6089]

failure2send wrote:

I remember reading an article once about a successful Japanese photographer who was ‘herbivore’ – in his 30s, he had zero interest in dating or getting married, and just wanted to work and do whatever, play video games, etc. So I would consider them to be MGTOW, just of a different type, especially when you take into account Japan’s dwindling population (http://theweek.com/articles/453219/everything-need-know-about-japans-population-crisis). Most MGTOW/TRP spokesmen have talked about this event at some point.

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. The article portrayed the herbivore Japanese men as adopting this position by defualt: as though it wasnt some liberating, empowering choice, but rather the only option because they cant financially afford a wife. And it wasnt by a matter of weighing the cost of divorce, like guys do on this board. But rather a necessity, as they had no other option. It wasnt what I was expecting.

Im assuming the term ‘herbivore’ is meant to suggest the lack of HUNTING any prey (i.e. being passive, not chasing women, etc).

Resident cynic.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

Ok, what I should say about the name “Herbivore” is that the name came from the outside actually, by social commentators instead of the men themselves.  They may of ran with it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

I would contrast that with MGTOW, where it appears to be something that came from inside to the world, and self-identified as a label.  So, I was a bit off in what I said maybe as a shaming thing, but on target that it wasn’t an internal/self-naming the way MGTOW is.  It also has its own attributes, in that there appears to be no sex, while MGTOW is more marriage, with a chunk of it being Herbivore in style by avoiding women completely or at least being platonic with them,

Also, the name apparently comes from sexuality related to men being seen as “meat” (carnal), so herbivore ends up meaning without that in their lives.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

Ancientwisdom wrote:

chir wrote:

Different origins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men The origins in American and European MGTOW are centered on socialist feminist dogma creating a male toxic legal system. Also socialist feminists are responsible for the attitude shift of most western woman that men are walking wallets and only serve utility by serving unquestioningly women’s needs. Western MGTOW walks away from this. Its just too toxic.

Thanks for the link. This quote was odd to me: “They are characteristically described as frugal, and interested in personal grooming.” This sounds less like men going their own way, and more like men going gay. Are there other/better explanations? I cant be the only one to interpret that statement that way. It also said men would rather eat grass side by side with wome…This was NEVER my understanding of MGTOW. Im not saying they represent MGTOW, but Japan is always brought up. So I wanted to know why. Anyway, what I read about Japanese men isnt reflective of me or what I think of MGTOW. Just curious why they are always brought up.

One thing that bothers me about society is that human relationships take on an excessively sexual nature.  To presume what the Herbivores are doing is gay, is to project WAY too much into the nature of men, and is a similar line of thinking thrown at MGTOW saying they can’t get laid.  It is a Japanese version of MGTOW, because they aren’t getting married and avoiding women in their own way.  It is a different flavor of it, and less concerned with what is masculine, because the BS corporatist “this is what it means to be a man” is dumped on Japanese men to be ground up and trashed like their fathers to prove they are men and get women and so on.  So, it is a revolt against that also.  It is just different, but I consider it as much MGTOWish as MGTOW here is in the west.

I think what is benefit here is to realize the reasons why you go MGTOW are not the reasons why other men go MGTOW.  For one thing, it isn’t gay, unless the man in question is bisexual and has decided to start to do sex acts with another man, or have sex acts done to them by another man.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

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