Illegal Immigration, Insourcing, Outsourcing, and Automation killing society?

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

Agree or disagree? Also, are younger generations enduring this dynamic worse than the past (spoiled) baby boomer generation? In advance, sorry butt hurt baby boomers.

[Just a ManParticipant 934]

They are illegal aliens not illegal immigrants. Immigrant denotes a form of legality, which they are in no way, shape or form legal. Please remember, thank you.

Philosophy, the female repellent

[bcrogerParticipant 113]

I think that we have bigger problems.

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

You clearly understand the standpoint I am making, yet you want to argue semantics? What does “illegal” denote by the way? The word that precedes “immigrants”?

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

Such as…I am all ears.

[FrankOneParticipant 1435]

Automation has increased productivity.  Even 200 years ago, textiles were expensive to produce.  Think of what a shirt cost now, vs then, in adjusted dollars.  On the other hand, automation and specialized skills have increased the wage/salary gap between unskilled and highly skilled labor.  Even so, unskilled labor is still doing MUCH better than it did in the pre-industrial era.  i.e. better medical care, air conditioning, transportation, etc.  I’m probably rather biased about this, as I’ve literally WORKED in automation for a good part of my career, automating industrial control systems (Distributed Control Systems), which reduced the number of men required to produce products.  Is that beneficial?  I’d say yes — industry is hurting in America, so costs must be kept down or plants shut down resulting in even more job losses than this automation…  On the other hand, I have certainly considered that further automation also means fewer factory jobs for those with high school educations, so it’s screwing those at the low end of the job market.

America is a nation of immigrants.  If Government didn’t set strict limits on immigrants, they’d BE legal.  Immigration is NOT a problem unless you run a WELFARE STATE as we do in the US.  In a welfare State, the potential exists to pay out (in benefits) more than you pay in (in taxes).  If the government shrank we could accommodate more immigrants.  In my mind, if you are employed and paying taxes, you should be eligible for citizenship (work visa) immediately, and if you keep it up, for, say, 5 years, you ought to be eligible for citizenship.  Economics is not a zero-sum game; there isn’t a fixed amount of wealth.  Population and GDP both grew over time in the US.  More people means more production AND more consumption…

I also like the diversity of immigration.  I go to the Taco Truck at lunch and get served a unique meal by people that can barely speak english and I pay what I would for fast food — much better than the monolithic s~~~ the chains dish out — ‘Americanized’ mexican food.  Or I go to a Mediterranean restaurant and have lunch followed by some delicious Baklava — compare that to the crap pastries served up at Chain$.  It also means not everyone thinks alike.  I concede I like some immigrant groups more than others — e.g. Mexicans are pretty hard-working generally; first wave Ethiopians also hard working; second wave generally lazy (the ones let in for political asylum; many collect welfare checks from Uncle Sugar).  I’ve never met an Israeli immigrant who wasn’t a kick-ass hard worker… Same for Russians… I also get torqued off at a lot of stereotypes, especially about Mexicans.  Who is out harvesting the fruit at the crack of dawn and kicking ass in the construction trades?

 

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

In the 1940’s and 1950’s Americans “kicked ass” working manual labor professions. The illegal population demographically was very minute during this era, yet we were incredibly prosperous as a nation. There is nothing wrong with automating jobs, as long as the the general populous can endure these conditions in an economic perspective, unless we chose a depopulation program. Frank, we obviously both see that human labor will be obsolete in the near future at a wide scale. Please share more to the pompous members of this site that don’t realize they will be soon rendered “obsolete” by Watson or another autonomous machine.

[FrankOneParticipant 1435]

Freeghost: Yes, we kicked ass post-WWII, in part because Western Europe’s industrial economy, and especially Germany’s, was decimated.  But GDP also grew during the waves of immigration preceding WWII.  Those immigrants were warm bodies to fill our factories.

I also believe fiscal and monetary policy have much to do with prosperity.  Keynes won the philosophical battle, Milton Friedman lost, and there are negative consequences of this…

I also should have added I don’t like immigrants who make no effort at all to assimilate — to learn our language and respect our values — e.g. religious freedom.  I believe we should be able to draw cartoons of the Prophet or the Pope without anybody getting firebombed or any Inquisitions.  And to me the most important value is WORKING, lazy people that want to collect benefits ought to get deported… I also like that religion is fragmented in America — yes, it’s nominally Christian, but no single denomination predominates — when one religion predominates I tend to think it can lead to stifling freedom.  Illegal?  I have no problem granting INSTANT citizenship to a Mexican that’s lived here a few years and is WORKING and not a LEACH… Or any other immigrant.

Letting in the best, the brightest, and the most motivated used to give us an advantage.  Closing the borders to people that  want to work, to me, seems like bad policy.  Sure, some of the money I spend at the Taco Stand probably goes to the employees’ Mexican relatives (they actually believe in family values), but much stays in America for their homes, food, savings, electricity, etc.

I think the US economy has shifted more to a service economy rather than manufacturing.  Working in manufacturing as I do, it’s sad to see.

I think we will eventually be rendered obsolete as far as the need to work, but not sure if it will be soon — maybe tens to hundreds of years, but not thousands in my opinion.

At 45, I’m old, and probably not as sympathetic to young people who can’t find work as I should be.  In my opinion, the economy stinks for most millenials and anyone with low skills.

 

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

Frank – we don’t allow the best and brightest to become legal citizens in this country just refer to the statistics of denied Europeans that apply for legal American citizenship in this country. There are many brilliant European architects and engineers from Europe that are denied citizenship to this country, yet the illegals pour in like water running downhill. My uncle is a 7 figure plumber in my state, who also operates many new construction facilities. He (like many affluent Americans) exploits these illegal immigrant labor and furthers his fortune on the backs on these near slaves. In turn, my desperate millennial cousins and his friends can’t find work if they sold a kidney.

[Anonymous 3]

There’s a lot to be written about this. But it might take too long to do it, plus ultimately doesn’t matter.

America has come back before, but I don’t think it will again.

[RusskyParticipant 13503]

On immigration: history shows that the best and most fruitful societies originate from rebels, criminals, rejects and other marginalized folk (read= true masculine Y chromosome galore)
The other major growth factor – is inability to spent all the resources on the military (just look at how Germany and Japan did after WWII)

proud carrier of the 'why?' chromosome

[FrankOneParticipant 1435]

FreeGhost: I agree about not letting the best and brightest in.  But we also need unskilled labor.  Americans don’t want to do it.  Who is performing the harvest of the fruit in the Central Valley of California?  Mexicans.  Historically immigration has been governed by quotas and racist policies (can’t let those Chinese become citizens, they’re good enough to build our transcontinental railroads, but not good enough to be citizens, etc).  But what PREVENTS your cousins from entering the trades as plumbers?  Societal programming that they must go to college?  A good plumber, who hustles, will make more money than I do as an engineer.  Our pathetic educational system is not geared for PRODUCING entrepreneurs and tradesmen.  Instead it’s geared to produce cattle to work in cubicles.

Is your Uncle exploiting his employees?  I’d argue NO if he has to pay market rates.  Bear in mind, they’re earning more than in their home countries and have money to send back.  They’re coming here of their own free will for a better life.  If it was better in their home country, they’d leave — and many who worked in construction DID when the housing bubble collapsed — many returned to Mexico or Latin America.  I call that the American Dream, the Left, calls it exploitation.  If we want to give these hard working men a better market value, we should end all the laws about hiring illegals so they can compete on a fair footing.

Really, this isn’t any different than people living in rural areas flocking to the city for jobs.  I work with numerous mechanics that drive an hour to work because there are no manufacturing jobs in the Appalachian counties within which they reside.

Also remember, economics isn’t a zero sum game.  Greater population does not necessarily mean lower OR more economic growth.  More people = more consumption = greater demand for food and housing.  Dropping wages may also mean dropping prices if the cost to produce goods & services drop in a free economy.

I work with mechanics with no college degrees, they are well-paid.  I’ve worked with tradesmen who have worked in fracking and who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars over several years.  I will concede with the decline in manufacturing, it is difficult to find a high paying job immediately, with no skills, out of high school, vs what it was, say, 60 years ago.

RuskyKGB: You’re exactly right.  If the US had made domestic oil & gas exploration a tax-free enterprise, as well as coal liquefaction and nuclear energy after WWII, there would have been little reason to maintain a large conventional military force for foreign adventures — all we really needed was a small array of ICBM’s to deter would-be attackers. Having 1,000 ICBM’s is no more effective than having 100 as a deterrent. But we never weaned Europe and Japan off using the US for their defense and thereby subsidized their economies.  Smaller government means greater resources for private enterprise and higher rates of economic growth. Of course, that may well have resulted in the Chinese dominating Asia and the Soviets dominating Western Europe, but giving our allies a few nukes would have prevented that.

[martygParticipant 103]

So this about immigration then. OK. We have a defined codified process for becoming a United States citizen. It’s not easy and it shouldn’t be easy. You seem to be implying that many brilliant Europeans and others are blocked for unfair reasons. I don’t know, maybe, but what’s the point. Just apply the processes impartially. Doesn’t seem like rocket surgery.

[lemmyheadParticipant 13]

I’m not a Septic so I can only speak for the Brits. We have badly let down the post ’60s generations. Not trying to make myself the exception, there were a few of us, that didn’t go for all this bulls~~~. Political Correctness? Political Bollocks! Positive Discrimination? Doesn’t that mean that somebody is being discriminated against? Diversity Quotas? We didn’t want them in the first place, we were never asked if we wanted them and now you want to give them unfair advantages, Utter Bollocks. Feminism? All for it. If they want to lose the special privileges that were given to the mothers of our nations good luck to them. BUT please ladies now that it’s all going to f~~~ for you stop whining. Stop winging about how unfair it is. It’s always been unfair. The only people who have any valid complaints are men for the discrimination against them.

Rant over. So, I assume you are a young man? Well the problems that have befallen us by previous generations are strengthening even more with your generation. Most of you are all ‘Oh, it’s so lovely here because we are so diverse.’ ‘The Muslims are not a problem it’s only a small minority that were raping and killing white girls in Rotherham’. And, of course, the big one, ‘We can now go out and eat in restaurants from around the world’. All utter, utter bollocks. Where are the advantages? Personally I like roast beef, steak and kidney pie and fish and chips. You can stick your foreign cuisine up your arse. And when it does come through that orifice it will burn twice as hot as it went in. So I don’t even get the cuisine advantage. In fact I can’t stand the smell of these places but who cares about my rights to smell only car fumes and factory chimneys?

So, Sir, I hold your complaint as valid. However, and I’m not a religious man, ‘First remove the log from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers.’

As someone has said before this is a long and detailed subject both for the U.S. and Europe. I could write a book on it but it’s already been done by people far better qualified than me.

[FreeGhostSpectator 318]

We used to do all the manual labor work, I am assuming you are a baby boomer. The WWII generation knew the true definition of hard work. Deporting illegals would create demand for manual labor sectors, this is basic economics. It would solve a lot of the debt crises and unemployment crises.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

Each revolution in innovation displaced a bunch of workers. These workers usually were able to find work elsewhere.  We do have an issue now with this as the Internet managed to end up displacing other workers also.  Issue is too deep here for myself to get into now.  I need to run.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[FunInTheSunParticipant 8286]

FrankOne wrote:

Americans don’t want to do it.

I disagree. I believe Americans will do any kind of s~~~ty job as long as the wages are worth it.

"I saw that there comes a point, in the defeat of any man of virtue, when his own consent is needed for evil to win-and that no manner of injury done to him by others can succeed if he chooses to withhold his consent. I saw that I could put an end to your outrages by pronouncing a single word in my mind. I pronounced it. The word was ‘No.’" (Atlas Shrugged)

[SandalsParticipant 4254]

Nobody’s talking about race, symbiotic, and parasitic relationships between the races? Pretty PC crowd here. Since that is what we are in fact looking at.

[HitmanParticipant]

sandals , this is about illegals in the u.s.a. correct ? of course they come from all over the world ..p.c ? no f~~~ing way bro , not HERE ! i can rant on all their s~~~ , seperate em into groups/catagories , but to what end ? it seems pretty obvious..they are ILLEGAL so kick them out AFTER background checks and a chance to become LEGAL. create thousands of jobs in homeland security to do this massive job ! oh, also put 1 homeland security agent with a GUN in EVERY school in the country..no more columbines or sandy hook massacres..it is the responsability of the govt. to provide/create jobs when the private sectors fail to do so. ( like they should have taught SPELLING to me in my n.y.c. public schools ! ) ;}

[SandalsParticipant 4254]

Hitman wrote:

p.c ? no f~~~ing way bro , not HERE ! i can rant on all their s~~~ , seperate em into groups/catagories , but to what end ? it seems pretty obvious..they are ILLEGAL so kick them out AFTER background checks and a chance to become LEGAL.

Ok then. Nobody anywhere seems to asking why our borders are open. Closing them is easy. So what is the purpose of keeping them open? Here is one interesting theory:

White Genocide

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