I need advice on how to become financially independent. Does anyone have any?

[MadmanParticipant 772]

Awesome Tim! I think there are more like minded MGTOW on the forums than I thought.

Big D, we have very similar life plans. Cant wait to retire early and move the hell out of USA.

[Wandering MGHOWParticipant 551]

Can anyone give more info on mutual funds? I would rather hear from some of you as opposed to Googling it and getting some bulls~~~ articles…

[AntaresParticipant 208]

Is there something specific you want to know?

Mutual funds are basically just buying a group purchase of stocks centered around some philosophy – maybe growth with risk, maybe in a specific industry, etc. This allows you to spread risk. For instance I invested in BP 3 months before they blew up the Atlantic and the stock went to s~~~. The entire oil industry was doing just fine, it was only BP that had problems. A mutual fund in that industry shields you from events like that.

The thing to watch with mutual funds are the “management fees”. They pay a fund manager and so forth to do book keeping, but in some cases the growth on paper gets muted because of the fund expenses. Watch out for fund “loads”, and avoid them. Also, stick to funds that have been around for a long time: 30+ years or more in my opinion. You can see their history, and there are plenty of very old funds performing well with the history to prove it.

If you’re just getting started, many accounts wave fees if you do a paycheck deduction going into investing. If you’re retirement isn’t on track yet, you most certainly want to get started on those kinds of tax advantaged funds first (401k / Roth IRA).

Index Funds are specialty funds that take the brain work out of fund management. Instead of trying to pick the good stocks, they just invest in all of them in a sector (or whatever). Vanguard is the one most recommended (including me) company with the lowest fees. Check out the Wikipedia article on them for the history of Index Funds.

ETFs are another thing to look into.

Price is what you pay, value is what you get. -- Ben Graham

[FullMetalExoParticipant 2383]

Tim Patten wrote:

…. Over time, as a young man, if you can set aside some money every month – then over time this pays off. ….

Antares wrote:

….. A mutual fund in that industry shields you from events like that. The thing to watch with mutual funds are the “management fees”. They pay a fund manager and so forth to do book keeping, but in some cases the growth on paper gets muted because of the fund expenses. Watch out for fund “loads”, and avoid them. Also, stick to funds that have been around for a long time: 30+ years or more in my opinion. You can see their history, and there are plenty of very old funds performing well with the history to prove it…..

I was thinking about things like this, got some money stashed in a bank, and will hopefully get to new work soon. I really love the idea of always withholding 10% from every month’s pay. Really nice.

Got some questions on this, and other things, would love some helpful info.

1. Where do you look for this information exactly, Banks or some invest. groups, internet in general, to start ? Im realy new to this, I earned money but didn’t learn to use it for a benefit like that.

2. Is there a reason to stash away gold “nuggets”/coins, as I’v read some do. And if yes, how do you exactly do it, I mean, again, where to buy real gold like that exactly. Have zero clue. Seems like Z-Day backup plan.

PS. my bank suggested a list of most popular ones.

• iShares
• SPDR
• Vanguard
• Lyxor
• db x-trackers
• PowerShares
• ProShares
• Direxion

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[AntaresParticipant 208]

There isn’t any magical knowledge dispenser for this stuff, because it’s a “life” thing. Many decades ago saving strategies were common sense. The wealthy Barber is a well known book, I was given The Richest Man in Babylon – which also teaches 10% (but why stop there?). Keymaster makes a good point that it’s not luck. Look at someone who has a plan and is succeeding; it’s not because they’re lucky. Talk to them. I used to have lunch with a guy who was about to retire and I asked him all sorts of questions. My mom used to be addicted to financial magazines, so I ask her too. My boss is a big investor and we talk regularly about it.

If you’re place of employment has a 401k or similar retirement plan, they probably have someone who can give basic financial retirement advice. My brokerage firm has documents to read (although I never have) and occasionally ask one of their advisers questions. Reading the forums here, Madman got me on Mr. Money Moustache’s blog. Those can be a good resource too. Just remember that everyone on the Internet sounds like they know what they’re talking about, even if they’re full of s~~~. Never do something because someone else told you to. Never invest in something you do not completely understand.

The reasons for investing in precious metals varies. Some want to gamble and strike it big, some people need it to reinforce their tinfoil hat. Again I’m on the same page as Madman and think of it as insurance. I don’t own anything of value. If someone hit the delete key on all the magic 1s and 0s that we think is money and investments, what would I have left? The answer was the $100 in my wallet, which made me step back and think about things. If you have assets that are actually worth something this might not be such a big concern. Buying those instead of metals is an option too.

There are many ways to get into precious metals gold/silver/platinum. You can buy physical stuff like coins and bars. Of course then you have to secure it somehow. Wherever you buy it from, make sure they also buy back. You can also buy precious metal ETFs.

I’ve heard of iShares,SPDR, and Vanguard, but I’d guess the bank wouldn’t have any interest in steering you wrong.

Taxed advantaged retirement accounts are the easiest way to get the most out of your money, but getting it out before age 60 is a pain in the ass. When saving for retirement that doesn’t matter though. If you work for someone and they offer a 401k with a match, look into that first. You’re money in the bank you’ll want to look into a Roth IRA. The limit for that is a contribution of 5.5k per year.

Price is what you pay, value is what you get. -- Ben Graham

[FullMetalExoParticipant 2383]

I see, thank you for clarification and insight. Yeh, I ll see how my job/life goes, and keep ears open on people I know. And books, of course. Thanks again !

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[MadmanParticipant 772]

Mr. Money Mustache. google it bro.

[Crazy CanuckMember 4215]

Do not buy a house right now there is a huge housing bubble.  If you buy a house now you may end up regretting because it will lose value.  This is true for most countries, like Canada, USA, China, etc.

 

Save.  Buy things on sale and buy in bulk.  Eat out only once a week and if you drink you can make your own beer or alcohol.

"If pussy was a stock it would be plummeting right now because you've flooded the market with it. You're giving it away too easy." - Dave Chapelle

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

Strategies I need to do, is using excess amount of free time, when I don’t have a job, and turn it into wealth.  In short, be able to generate wealth without cash.  I do harvesting on the web, and research, and do personal development.  The short of the approach is having a different set of rules.  That is what I would need to seek.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[MantelarParticipant 77]

i think the biggest blunder people make in this country is going into debt before they understand what debt is.  money is earned first, by an investment of your time.  your time is your LIFE.  therefor your money is your LIFE.  money management is equal to time management is equal to life management.  once you adopt this perspective, you’ll rightly begin to guard your money with as much love and care as your person and things will begin to fall into place.  at your age, i worked a factory job to pay my way through college.  back then i earned $10 an hour.  a simple but effective strategy i ended up adopting was equating everything i purchased with time.  was a $5 beer worth a half hour of my time?  absolutely not.  was a $30 dollar meal worth 3 hours of my time?  absolutely not.  you have to live within your means, and when you’re starting off in life, your means are extremely limited.  its true for everyone, but especially at your point in life, refraining from bulls~~~ purchases will have a tremendous impact on your financial freedom.  in the end, you have to adjust your mindset.  you don’t need a new car – you need a reliable, used one.  you don’t need a house – you need a one bedroom apartment at most.  it might sound awful, but living with your parents is not shameful – if they’re stable, its SMART.  i lived with them during the summers.  rather then pay rent to a landlord, i set aside a couple hundred a month and bought them something they needed.  in my opinion it was a much more efficient and meaningful way to spend what would otherwise have just been rent money going to some faceless property manager i didn’t know or care about.

i realize this is probably a radical departure from what you’ve been taught your whole life about what it means to be a man.  if not from your parents, then certainly from the society around your writ large.  but the sooner you realize that society is F~~~ED UP, the sooner you will be able to begin making rational decisions that first benefit you, and not someone else.  ask yourself, would you be ‘ashamed’ to live like this?  if the answer is yes, and it turns out that shame is the primary force driving you to make a purchase, you need to reevaluate.  shame will always cause you to act in someone elses interest, not your own.  there is nothing shameful about living within your means.  it is, in fact, the first step in being a self-reliant MAN – the polar opposite of shameful.

i was unmarried during my prime earning years.  i saved my money assiduously.  it wasn’t fun.  but by 30, i owned my vehicle outright.  i bought a home with cash.  had i allowed myself to be shamed into purchasing a mortgage, i would still have had 20 years to pay on that house by that point.  if you’re willing to go against the grain and reject our mindless consumer culture – which does nothing but encourage you to spend yourself into debt slavery – you’ll find its actually EASY to get ahead in this country.  the only thing standing between you and financial freedom is letting other people shame you into spending your money on things you don’t really need.

google ‘retiring at 40’ or ‘retiring early’ and you’ll find there are plenty of good forums by people who have done exactly what i described above.  the road map has already been built for you.  in the context of this website, the biggest consistent pieces of advise you’ll get are 1. don’t get married, 2. don’t have children, 3. don’t spend your money on women.  if the latter makes you feel like less of a man, just ask yourself if that same woman is consistently spending a like amount of money on you.  the answer is almost certainly no.

the last thing i’ll say is at 18, invest in yourself.  college is the basic answer.  but if you’re not college material, an many people actually ARE NOT, then seek out whatever form of education will put you at the top of your chosen profession.  trade school, apprenticeships, etc.  if you’re single, you could even consider more exotic forms of employment.  seasonal hard labor can be extremely lucrative at your age – oil rigs, merchant marines, commercial fishing, etc.  its very easy to save money in environments like those.  and the experiences you gain in education and/or doing jobs like the ones listed above will pay off in spades as you get older and begin looking to either manage or start your own business.  keep an open mind and a closed wallet.  save generosity for your later years, when you actually have the means for it.

[Single SpearParticipant 19]

Keymaster is spot on, I took it a step further and put 40% of my pay in company matched for 17 years. I sure like seeing all them zero’s. Put money in till it hurts I did.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Listen to Mantelar…he knows whats up.  If you can get through your early 20s without falling for the typical student loan debt and car loan that most people end up with…you’ll be loving life at 30 when you are getting settled into a career, making good money, and watching compounding interest work its magic on your savings.

If you decide to go to college work as hard as you can, and pick up every extra hour you can as long as its not hurting your studies.  You’ll hate life for a few years when all your peers are out partying and going on vacations and s~~~, but 1 day after graduation when they all have to start paying back loans and you are free to start maxing your 401k instead, you’ll be the happiest f~~~er around.

[Won'tGetFooledAgainParticipant 3301]

I am 41 and divorced and I am only just starting on the road to becoming financially independent.  First of all, I totally agree with what Mantelar is saying and it has taken me 18 years of working to come to the same conclusion.

I know now if I had realised all of this when I first started work and had never got married I would be very, very comfortable right now.  I would definitely have a house fully paid for, a couple of rental properties and be able to work part time.

First of all you need to get yourself into a situation where you have zero debt, this is the most important first step.  I work with people who go on about the money they have in their savings account but forget about all the car loans, credit card debt etc they have.  They do not understand the simple concept that if you have £5,000 in the bank but £30,000 in loans and credit cards you actually have -£25,000 not £5000.  You would think that any 5 year old could understand this but they seem to use some sort of Jedi mind trick to convince themselves they have money.

I was foolish when I first started work and instead of buying a property and stashing money I took out car loan after car loan to get myself the latest shiny car I was all excited about.  It took me a long time to realise that once the novelty had worn off I was spending a large percentage of my salary to pay for a car so I could get to work and pay for the car to get me to work.  Luckily I had an epiphany one day and realised just how much I hated being in debt.  I sold the car, and spent every spare penny I had paying off my loans and credit cards.

Then I was even more foolish and I got married.  We got divorced and I ended up on my 40th birthday effectively starting from scratch again.  I could have rented some crummy apartment which would have taken up most of my salary but I moved in with my parents and started saving every penny I could.  Even with the money I had to pay with the ex wife I was still able to save over half of my salary and I currently have around 8 months take home in a bank account.

One added advantage of having this amount of cash to hand with zero debt is it gives you the confidence to just say f~~~ it.  I could walk out and leave my job tomorrow and I know I have enough money to easily last me for well over a year.  Once you have zero debt and a tidy sum in the bank it just seems to keep increasing with no effort as you will easily be living within your means.

When I buy something now I also work out how many hours I have to work to pay for it and if it is worth it for me.  It always amazes me the amount of people who are prepared to spend 3 or 4 hours pay eating out to have an average meal when you could have prepared something better at home.

I love German cars and I drive a 12 year old fully paid for Audi A4.  It is probably worth less than 10% of a brand new one, but is it only 10% as good as a new one?  People buy new cars as they don’t have the ability to fix them or service the car themselves so a brand new car gives them some sort of security that it won’t break down.  I have the ability to fix and service the car myself and that skill is saving me hundreds of pounds a month in depreciation.

I agree that people seem to have no problem getting into debt slavery to buy things they think they need to be a better person.  I have found that since I am single and MGTOW the amount of money I spend on pointless rubbish I don’t need is absolutely zero.  The government, banks and business hate people like us as we are not buying into the whole debt slavery idea.

So to sum up, have no debt, live well within your means and you will be much happier than all those sheep who have to have the latest iPhone, TV, Car etc.  Also being in a relationship is the biggest debt shaming exercise in history.  Think of the amount of times you have to eat out or go out for drinks just to keep that person happy.  That is before you have even got onto all the furniture, holidays, cars etc. that you have to pay for.

For women, everything eventually boils down to Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks.

[Zuberi TauParticipant 10606]

I recommend “The Millionaire Next Door”.

 

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Won'tGetFooledAgain wrote:

First of all you need to get yourself into a situation where you have zero debt, this is the most important first step. I work with people who go on about the money they have in their savings account but forget about all the car loans, credit card debt etc they have. They do not understand the simple concept that if you have £5,000 in the bank but £30,000 in loans and credit cards you actually have -£25,000 not £5000. You would think that any 5 year old could understand this but they seem to use some sort of Jedi mind trick to convince themselves they have money.

This s~~~s so true.  I worked hard to get through college debt free, and ended up trapped in a dead end job for a couple years afterwards while searching for something in my field.  Needless to say, I spent most of my life up until recently making between 2000 and 2500 a month take home, while paying for college cash out of pocket as I went, and trying to pay my condo off early with whatever extra I had.  I got used to living on a pretty tight budget.  Now I’m taking home 4k+ a month after taxes, and I’m at the bottom of my pay scale…its only going to go up from here as I finish my on the job training and start picking up qualifications and getting more training and crap.  If I keep doing well in my training and don’t p~~~ anyone off I could see my pay go up another 50% over the next 5 years.

Its ridiculous how much money I can bank now…I need about 1200 a month for basic living expenses, and that’s living on my own and eating real food, not living off pb&j and ramen noodles while having to deal with annoying room mates to save a little money.  I can literally stash away 3k a month post tax if I want to…but I’ve been stashing a lot in a 401k so I’m really saving more than 3k a month but some of it is pre-tax.  The most stressful financial decision I have to make in the near future is going to be deciding on if I’m going to buy a used Dodge Viper, a Mercedes SL-600, or maybe go retro and get a 70’s Camaro with a big ass blower next spring just because I’ve always wanted a sweet car for a toy.  The sad thing is, I can go dump 40k cash on a ridiculous sports car and people will be like OH MY GOD HOW DID YOU AFFORD THAT…while they are driving around in a car with a sticker price of 30,000 that they financed and ended up paying 36,000 for.

Meanwhile I know plenty of people that are working jobs where they make maybe 3-4k a month, but they have to have a fancy cell phone, and rent in the area is typically higher than a mortgage, so they end up needing at least 1500 a month for the basics, then have an 800 a month student loan payment, and a 600 a month car payment.  Add all that s~~~ up because they got buried in debt and you can easily end up in a job where you are making decent money but your still f~~~ing broke.  If you don’t dig yourself in a hole you literally end up thousands of dollars ahead each year by making interest/collecting dividends instead of paying interest…plus you have the added piece of mind of knowing that if something happens and you get laid off, or miss a month of work with no pay or something, you have the money in the bank to not sweat it and all your s~~~ is paid for…you aren’t going to be losing your car, getting evicted, and having some mafia guy coming to break your knees because you owe someone money.

[EndwatcherParticipant 81]

Look up

“Arbitrage”

“online arbitrage”

Eventually you will jump to things like private label, so you run the listing.

What it is essentially in a nut shell is you buy stuff cheap and resell for more “usually 3X more, and up” on Amazon. You would want to start first in local stores scanning clearance items, because its the easiest and you dont need THAT much cash to do it.

Later you learn how to set trackers and buy stuff right off Amazon when a sale comes, then ship it back in for resell, lol Its pretty crazy how people spend their money. Ive seen people make 300K over night during 4th quarter. “Christmas time”

 

 

 

I make my living doing this, and am also starting to build a few niche sites for Clickbank, Amazon associates, etc..etc

 

If you wanna know more, feel free to ask away; Its perfect for a single guy, especially starting young.

Generally I go into a store with my phone, use a scanning app thats on it going through different items. The app tells you your approx net roi “Return on investment” Ive went into Walmarts where I have deals worked out with the Managers, where I spend more then 2k on clearance items, they give me an additional 50% off the lowest price. Ill spend 2k, send it in Make about 6k ROI on the goods. And its not like ebay where things sell SLOWWWWWW, stuff moves, and you dont have to deal with many customers because you send your stuff into Amazon as they are your fulfillment service

[nerowolfeParticipant 13]

mrmoneymustache.com

[ThouMGTOWParticipant 22]

Being single and child free will allow you to become safe and financially independent in itself. It’s all a matter of living within your means and working on yourself.

[idaveParticipant 9]

First, being enlightened enough to ask for advice and help is fine. But let’s cut to the chase. Your 18, inexperienced and have no real world skill. What you want to do or be is paramount to getting towards your goals. Here’s tip one, picking a career and getting a first job is step one. Maybe your uncertain, so research what  motivates you to find a career that supports your motivation. Your 18, you like 10 different things, but what’s real or serious. Sometimes it’s not picking but eliminating choices. No matter what you pick, if you get an entry level position, start educating yourself in that field and if there is no money to support education, pay as you can afford as you go along. In twelve years you’ll be 30, that’s a good goal age to have bench mark for education and achieved some entry level job goals. First, get the idea of making a killing financially before 30 out of your head. Next thinking that between work and education your not going to need to invest 60-70 a week is naive. What’s your comfort level? Back in 1982, I wanted to make $30,000 at 30 yrs/old. I achieved my goal. That doesn’t mean my lifestyle was $30,000 a year. As soon as you have what you consider a job that allows a lifestyle and supports your education needs, here are the rules. While educating yourself, devote 10-15% of your income towards education. Save and never touch 5% of your income. Make your life style and bills 80% of your life. Save the education money until you use it, then just pay it and invest in yourself. After military service, I was 21. I invested in being a bartender and got a job. I used my GI Bill and 10% of my income to put me into school. I stayed in the reserve after active duty. It gave me a $200 pay check a month. Since courses were $500 per 3 credit hours, it took a hundred dollars a month plus reserve pay to allow me a course every 8 weeks in a night program in a college. I was earning $700/mth in a job. Living on $500 a month I was putting $75 dollars in my future. I went with State Farm insurance and had them invest my money in a mutual fund they chose for me and every six months, they invested $100 in utility bonds. Insurance companies are safer than brokerage firms as they balance their bottom line on sound investment with a conservative flair. By the time I was 30 I was earning $40.000 a year and investing $12,000 a year with state farm. I was also investing $4,000 a year in a company pension plan that the company matched $1 for $1 up to 10% of my income. So I was living on $26,000 a year, working 1 full time job and 1 part time job plus a weekend of military service. I completed a 2 year associates degree at 28 yrs/old. When I applied at my college my experience with my work experience, I earned a 4 year degree. I cleft tested out from work experience. I might add that I had married, had a first child and second child came at 31 yrs/old. By 37, I was earning $ 88,000 a year. I had three children and had $3000,000 in mutual funds and bonds. I had $52,000 in 4 accounts covering our family savings and three college funds for the children. My pension would mature at 50 % of my earning and I was projecting at 47 yrs/old a retirement and an additional draw down of $30,000 in retirement. Roughly $80,000/ year. When I was 60 I would get an additional $11,000/yr in military retirement.

 

At 37 almost 38, the wife started divorce proceedings. She got the mutual funds and bonds, the house which I had to pay for for an additional 5 years, + utilities, child support and alimony.  I never qualified for the military  retirement, I left early. Major set back. After 5 years I won the custody back of all 3 kids. I helped the oldest child 50/50 in college and the second 70/30 through college. The third wasn’t interested in college. I was forced to retire at 55 by age and solely on pension, $118,000/yr. I live on $92,000/yr after taxes, which is more than I hoped and enough as a single guy. It’s much less than what I planned which was $150,000/yr, married and close to $1 million in funds in the bank., but I’m comfortable. The Ex passed away 10 years ago and I’m young enough to continue working if money gets tight. I’ll never marry again and in 5 years being retired, I’ll be debt free and just have the mortgage and maybe one car payment. If I hadn’t lost the first house, all the savings and mutual funds and had the Ex passed on anyway, I’d be living the life of Riley with a million in funds, a $100,000 in the bank plus retirement.

 

Be careful in relationship and limit children in your life. You can be an ordinary guy with the world as your oyster. You can do better than me.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

idave – Its stories like yours that make me want to never marry.  You pretty much did all the right things from 18-38, and once you got yourself into a position where you were obviously happy where your finances were and were on track for an early and well funded retirement, 20 years of hard work and planning got blown up by the ex.  I couldn’t imagine signing a marriage contract that would put my financial b~~~~ on the chopping block like that.  I’m glad things seemed to rebound nicely for you at least.

Otherwise though, I was doing some reading on financial independence over the week, and one common theme I found is that financial independence isn’t a set dollar amount you need…its based on your living expenses.  Basically the lower your expenses the less you need to actually be financially independent.  If you have a bunch of stock paying 4% average dividends, and you can live off 16,000 a year, you only need 400k invested to be financially independent.  Likewise…if you have 2 million invested and paying 4% dividends, you’d be making 80,000 a year in passive income, but if you have expenses of 120,000 a year you aren’t financially independent even with a 2 million dollar nest egg!

Looking at it from this perspective really got me thinking about my retirement strategy, as early retirement is something I want to strive for.  If I keep my expenses low for a few more years…there is no reason I can’t be financially independent by 35.  Obviously a nest egg where you are making 100k+ a year in passive income with no draw down is ideal…but I think the day I hit financial independence based on a minimalist life style is going to be the most epic and motivational day ever.  It will be like a weight off my soul knowing that I am no longer working because I have to, but simply working to inflate my standard of living, and the choice to say f~~~ it I’m done can be made entirely by me any time I want.

[Author]

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