Home › Forums › MGTOW Central › I f~~~ed up big time and could use your advice
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J.D Silvernail 4 years, 1 month ago.
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Hey guys,
Some of you know my story. I’m a 22 year old fresh rid piller who indirectly climbed the corporate latter because I got lucky. I have very little schooling, just experience working in extremely stressful environments (prisons and high risk mental wards) I know this should go in the work forum, but it is slow tonight and I want instant gratification right now. Please forgive me.
I’ve had half a 5th of vodka in the last few hours, so please bear with me if what I’m about to type is sloppy.
I became a temporary assistant manager at a company with over 2000 employees. My predecessor abruptly quit and I still don’t know why. She took every shred of paperwork with her. I took her spot in a time of crisis and basically worked as a consultant to figure out how to do the job even though I had very little to work with.
Fast forward a few months. I’m now kicking this job’s ass. The job is extremely challenging, but I really like that aspect of it. S~~~ is constantly going wrong and I get to be the man who fixes everything. Anyway, Today I walked into the HR office to hand in some paperwork and one of the analysts pulled me aside. She asked me to sit down with her and pulled out a packet. “We want to hire you permanently. Blah blah blah…. Now I have an algorithm for determining your rate of pay. We are prepared to offer you $________.”
Now this is where I f~~~ed up. Get ready to cringe hard! I immediately said yes. No I didn’t attempt to negotiate. I didn’t stop to consider my value. I didn’t even pause. I just took the first offer that came my way. The number she gave me was exactly .81 cents higher than the lowest caliber employees make per hour. (What I was making as a temp) I was so enthused by their validation that my critical thinking slipped into the s~~~ter.
That wage works for me at this point because I pay very little rent for a shack, but I cant comfortably live off of that hourly rate long term.
I didn’t sign any paperwork and our conversation wasn’t recorded. I have a meeting with the same analyst on Monday.
I feel so f~~~ing stupid. I also don’t have any negotiation skills. I also feel like a scavenging hyena taking any scraps that are thrown my way even though I helped make the kill. I just thought I’d share this with you guys to find out if you had any advice for me. I ‘ll be available to respond to your comments until I pass out.
Pursuing Happiness and Freedom.
In salary negotiations… the unspoken “rule” is :
The first person who mentions the number is the loser.Its’ not iron clad true, but as an employee, it’s up to the company to give you a reason to make you stay. Your job is to give them 101 reasons to want you, their job is to give you AT LEAST ONE reason to stay. That reason is…. the money. Forget the free coffees and the snacks because you’re not a dog. You work for others for the money.
Your response is best reserved to:
1. “is that the best you can do?”
or
2. “Thank you. I will think about it”.
There is also something to consider. Not to be a “man of money” but rather….. a man of VALUE. At 22, there is no need for you to be about the money. Get established. Get experienced and kick ass. Make it so that they can’t live without you. Then you can waltz in there in another 90 days, and say I need another 15% – and you’ll get it.
First rule of sales: if you give someone a chance to say “no” they usually will.
So don’t “ask”. 90 days from now….. TELL them what you want.
Or have them make you an offer.You can accept what they offered (because you already did) but before you sign anything, let them know you expect another review and another raise in 90 days. If they flinch, the have them boost you up now to lock you in for a year. (for example)
Just think about it and trust your manstincts.
It’s DEFINITELY not the end of the world.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.So basically you’re saying that I should rage hard and run everything extremely efficiently. Then return to HR in 90 days and ask for a raise? That sounds super badass.
Do you think I should go b~~~~ to the wall and give them the underlying impression that I’ll quit if I don’t get the raise? Also should I be prepared to state to them how valuable of a worker I am and what they’ll miss out on if I’m gone? Also, with your last point about having them boost me up now to lock me in for a year. How do you suggest I go about doing that? I doubt they’ll give me a 1 increase just because I’ll ask. I suck at this sort of thing.
Pursuing Happiness and Freedom.
In salary negotiations… the unspoken “rule” is :
The first person who mentions the number is the loser.Its’ not iron clad true, but as an employee, it’s up to the company to give you a reason to make you stay. Your job is to give them 101 reasons to want you, their job is to give you AT LEAST ONE reason to stay. That reason is…. the money. Forget the free coffees and the snacks because you’re not a dog. You work for others for the money.
Your response is best reserved to:
1. “is that the best you can do?”
or
2. “Thank you. I will think about it”.
There is also something to consider. Not to be a “man of money” but rather….. a man of VALUE. At 22, there is no need for you to be about the money. Get established. Get experienced and kick ass. Make it so that they can’t live without you. Then you can waltz in there in another 90 days, and say I need another 15% – and you’ll get it.
First rule of sales: if you give someone a chance to say “no” they usually will.
So don’t “ask”. 90 days from now….. TELL them what you want.
Or have them make you an offer.You can accept what they offered (because you already did) but before you sign anything, let them know you expect another review and another raise in 90 days. If they flinch, the have them boost you up now to lock you in for a year. (for example)
Just think about it and trust your manstincts.
It’s DEFINITELY not the end of the world.So basically you’re saying that I should rage hard for the next 90 days and run everything extremely efficiently. Then return to HR and ask for a raise? That sounds super badass.
Do you think I should go b~~~~ to the wall and give them the underlying impression that I’ll quit if I don’t get the raise? Also should I be prepared to state to them how valuable of a worker I am and what they’ll miss out on if I’m gone? Also, with your last point about having them boost me up now to lock me in for a year. How do you suggest I go about doing that? I doubt they’ll give me a 1 increase just because I’ll ask. I suck at this sort of thing.
Pursuing Happiness and Freedom.
So basically you’re saying that I should rage hard and run everything extremely efficiently. Then return to HR in 90 days and ask for a raise? That sounds super badass.
Yeah. But Like I said …… don’t ASK.. ( Remember the first rule of sales ^^^^)
Do you think I should go b~~~~ to the wall and give them the underlying impression that I’ll quit if I don’t get the raise?
No. That’s “weak”. SAY LESS….. DO MORE. Let your actions do the talking. Just do the job WELL. My brother has a guy working for him . He told me that guy is in such a good position, he practically has the company by the b~~~~. He told me, this guy could walk into his office anytime and demand whatever he wanted and my brother would pay it. He won’t offer it, but if the guy KNEW it and said “I need X”, he would get it. Just an example.
You don’t want to communicate “or else I’ll quit”.
You want to let them wonder if you might be looking elsewhere.That’s the power play.
So rather than saying “IF YOU DON’T GIVE ME X I WILL QUIT!!!”…. it’s more like ……… you wait until they need you to stay late to finish something – or a favor — and you just casually tell them you can’t while you’re getting ready to leave at 5:01 PM. “I’ll be happy to help you and stay as late as you need, when you’re ready to offer me more. Have a great weekend!” And that gives them something to think about.
Also should I be prepared to state to them how valuable of a worker I am and what they’ll miss out on if I’m gone?
Again no, You should never have to say that out loud.
WORK….. so that you NEVER have to say that out loud.
Also, with your last point about having them boost me up now to lock me in for a year. How do you suggest I go about doing that?
Well they want your commitment. So since you already said “ok” to less than you wanted…. you can wait to see if they are trying to lock you in for a year or whatever. When you’re holding the pen tell them you expect a review and another conversation / raise after 90 days…. because you don’t want to be at the current rate this time next year. Be creative. You don’t OWE them s~~~.
[quote quote=160640] I doubt they’ll give me a 1 increase just because I’ll ask. I suck at this sort of thing.
Then remove any doubt. And don’t “ask”.
Look…. imagine this. You go to your boss in the middle of a workday and “ask” for a raise. The boss already knows he can say no and you’re going back to your desk. RIGHT?? It’s pointless to do it like that. BUT….. if you wait until the NEED you over a long weekend (or to stay late) the answer won’t be “no”…… your answer will be “Ill be happy to stay If you offer me more” .
1. you didn’t have to “ask”.
2. you’re GLAD to do it.
3. you’re getting him when he NEEDS you.
4. You’re already on your way out the door.Now it’s his move.
Don’t “threaten to quit”.
Let them wonder if you may be looking for something better.If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Go in with facts on Monday. They got a free period where you showed what you can do to smooth things out. You stepped up on multiple occasions already without the raise.
Give them a list of incidences you’ve fixed and outcome after your solution.
Tell them that 81 cents over the person who shows up on time most times and then leaves precisely 8 hours later is a slap in the face. See if they’d like until Wednesday to check with their superiors if they have leeway.
On Wednesday have your stuff packed to go back to your previous job, since it makes the pay rate that you are currently receiving without the additional hassles.
Ensure before negotiations even start that you have a current review based on your most recent duties. This will be the most effective negotiation tool for getting hired by a direct competitor if you over flex your muscle.
This all assumes that you are a money driven person instead of a future goals driven person. If you like the job, and the challenges it presents then it may be worth it to hang out for a bit. Personally when I feel under-compensated it feels like they don’t value my contributions.
To put it in a context of a personal relationship, would you be the standard gentleman with a woman? Paying for everything, opening doors and pulling out chairs for her, and even getting down on one knee… only to tolerate her bitching about the toilet seat getting left up or a sex drought because you didn’t bring her favorite flowers? Thought not.
Unless they are serving a long distance purpose for you, a job at 22 has no bearing on your long term health and well being. You may be craving that MVP status, the guy who comes to the rescue. Don’t be that guy for too long for free or almost free. A buck an hour might fill your gas tank each payday right now, but next Summer the “raise” might not even cover getting you to work.
I failed to realize in my youth that I was the prize. I was going to work. I was going to earn. Little did I realize that due to feminism, that no longer meant I had to share. Road soon, Desert after.
I pretty much agree with what people have already said above, however I feel your situation is a bit different, because you’ve already said yes, the last thing you want to do in a company is to make people wonder whether you really mean what you say. So here’s my 50 cents.
1. Do some research and see how much people are getting paid doing what you do with the same level of experience.
2. Find out how easy it would be for the company to replace you? The easier it is, the lower you will get paid. It doesn’t matter how much you think you are worth, all it matters is how much the market thinks you are worth.
3. Money is of course important, but I value integrity more, since you’ve already said yes, you want to stick to it, if you really need that job. However, that being said, tell them that you respect their decision, but you want to spend the next month proving that you are worth more, and you set a date to re-negotiate the salary on Monday. In the meanwhile, spend some time see what other opportunities there are out there, so you know the market better and get yourself ready to leave in case the negotiation doesn’t turn out the way you want. Also remember to write down things you do for the company that other people currently aren’t doing, if they realize they have to hire two people to do your job, then you don’t even have to ask for a raise.
Anyways, that’s how I would fix the situation if I were you, it’s painful, but see it as a lesson in life, it’s how we grow smarter. 🙂 Cheers buddy.
I didn’t sign any paperwork and our conversation wasn’t recorded. I have a meeting with the same analyst on Monday.
To me that means your salary is still negotiable. It is good that you have had times to think it over. It’s called “buyer’s remorse” I believe. I also believe you can get a better deal.
Keymaster, Ogre, and Misandrist have offered solid advice, which I would heed in your shoes. Where they differ among themselves, you can pick and choose what best fits your particular situation.
Whatever happens, you will end up with better pay where you are, or a better job somewhere else.
Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?
I feel so f~~~ing stupid. I also don’t have any negotiation skills. I also feel like a scavenging hyena taking any scraps that are thrown my way even though I helped make the kill. I just thought I’d share this with you guys to find out if you had any advice for me. I ‘ll be available to respond to your comments until I pass out.
You’re 22, give yourself a break. You don’t know everything, and the stuff you do know (through experience) is your value. Take the advice of the other posters in this thread and you’ll be on a level playing field next time you negotiate salary (and you will, of course, multiple times for the rest of your working life).
Continue to bust your ass for the company and become someone they can’t live without. In your free time (if you have any), if you plan on staying in the corporate world go to school part time and finish a bachelors degree in something useful. If it takes you eight years, you’ll have eight years of work experience and a bachelors degree at age 30, which will put you in the driver seat to make big mid-career and late-career money if you continue to impress the people that matter.
Above all, and it sounds like you already know this, never forget that the corporate world is NOT a meritocracy. The “good old boys club” is all that matters.
Anonymous26To me that means your salary is still negotiable. It is good that you have had times to think it over. It’s called “buyer’s remorse” I believe. I also believe you can get a better deal.
Roydal is right here 007….. negotiations are still open and nothing is final at this point in time.
81 cents raise…. that what happened with my recent employer’s offer of employment. For over a week and a half, daily I was being told….”paperwork is coming today from head office”. When it did finally come I was told not to doddle over it for too long.
This I suspect is the typical “operatas morandus” of every corporation out there today!
Or, first thing in the morning you could go to H.R. and thank them for the generous offer but you’ve been thinking over the weekend and that the offer of salary was low and you would like to ask for more before your acceptance is processed.
You must have documentation to show that the other offer was low and, if you can, justify a higher salary by pointing out that you do more work than most, more difficult work and you’ve shown yourself to be a tireless worker that puts the company first.
Just an idea but that’s what I would do.
#icethemout; Remember Thomas Ball. He died for your children.
You see, I thought the same thing, fortunately or unfortunately I was dicked around. My boss promised me one thing, then started to back track a little bit at a time. Till I said f~~~ off, I’ll walk out the door right now, IDGAF. twist the f~~~ing knife. Ask them why you should take the job. So far as negotiations go, lie. Tell them you can’t agree for sure to be hired permanently because one of your buddies has got another sweet job lined up with less work for more pay That way you can negotiate some more money.
I’m the same age, man. The world isn’t fair, if they can get away with paying you less, they will. Now, it’s important not to come off as angry, but just talk about it matter of factually because this is business and you’re out to make money just like they are. If not, negotiate a raise within a few months. Also remind them that not only no body wants to do the job, but that the job’s hard, the last person quit, and that you can do the job well (there’s no denying it, they want to hire you on).
TWIST THE F~~~ING KNIFE.
Monday, tell them you’ve reconsidered. Tell them you’ve talked it over with your wife or gf, tell them about other “potential employers” And get the money.
Feminism is a movement where opinions are presented as facts and emotions are presented as evidence.
PS
Here’s a line I like to use.
“I’ll give this company 110% but I expect the same”That can really put it into perspective. Believe me, rehiring someone every couple of months is not cost efficient. They will be new and still learning the ropes and won’t be as productive as someone who’s been doing it for a while like you. You can usually squeeze a little more money out of them.
Feminism is a movement where opinions are presented as facts and emotions are presented as evidence.
Or, first thing in the morning you could go to H.R. and thank them for the generous offer but you’ve been thinking over the weekend and that the offer of salary was low and you would like to ask for more before your acceptance is processed.
This.
You received some excellent advice from the guys here.
The only other suggestion I would add is to consider taking some classes on negotiation to become a better negotiator. You will encounter this type of issue throughout life and you don’t want some HR female to take advantage of you.
Good luck. (And negotiations aren’t over- they have just begun. Have some fun with them)
Or, first thing in the morning you could go to H.R. and thank them for the generous offer but you’ve been thinking over the weekend and that the offer of salary was low and you would like to ask for more before your acceptance is processed.
^^^ Yeah…. this.
If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.Hi 007,
Brain pilot here. I’ve just come through one of the bigger contract negotiations of my career, and was happy to see someone so young (I’m 50) paying attention to these things as early as you are. There isn’t much I can add to the advice above. All of it is good and you are smart to seek the advice of other men on this. One of the best things about men, and it’s true about men everywhere, is that men will spontaneously team up, and make an effort on a cause that is not centered on their individual selves. Women are so selfish and so focused on their own interests, they will almost never help each other.The only thing I would add to any of this is to put down the vodka! LOL You are in a situation where you KNOW the stakes are high and much will ride on your actions and decisions for at least the next several days. These are days you want to be SOBER for. The time for vodka is the day you cash your first paycheck written to you in the amount you are actually worth.
That being said, handle this problem with the same focus and determination you are already bringing to the glitches and screw ups you are fixing in this company. (Clear, sober and ambitiously).
If you go to the meeting next week, they will arrive expecting to sort out more details than the salary. You’ve agreed to that already so in their minds, that factor is already sorted. But in your prior meeting, you probably did not agree on HOW LONG you have agreed to work at that salary. So when it comes up in the next meeting (if it doesn’t, you bring it up at that point when they ask you if you have any more questions), you can ask something like “when is my first review?”. No matter what they answer, your response is something like, “The reason I ask is that while I was working as a temp, I have seen things that I can do to improve things around here that are worth a lot more than what I have agreed to for now (make sure they hear that “for now” part), but I couldn’t really do/say anything about them as a temp’ worker. They’ll make or save the company more money and make a few other people’s jobs go easier, but they just didn’t seem to be things that would be well received coming from an outsider, so I haven’t really done much on them.”
90% chance they’ll immediately want to know what those things are (greedy f*cks that most bosses are). Your response to this could not be better than to say something like, “I don’t want to risk over-promising and then under-delivering, and I’m not 100% certain these things will work yet. So can we meet again for a review in about 30/60/90 days? That will give me time to nail down some details about what it is I can actually do/offer here so I won’t be guessing or assuming when we talk again…”.
They will agree to this because there is no risk or cost to them for doing so, and you’ve dangled some bait.
The reality of this is that it will end any misconceptions about this offer you’ve taken being permanent, but it won’t lock you in to this lower rate of pay for very long. It won’t require you to bail, or to threaten it. And it will show that your thinking is focused on what’s best for the company, and that you have a view to a horizon beyond next Friday’s paycheck. None of that is a bad thing. It will also give you a specific date about when you’ll be discussing this again. If you had known 90 days in advance that this recent offer was coming, you would definitely have been much more prepared for it, and probably would not have taken that first offer. You only took it because you were surprised and didn’t see it coming. We’ve all done that. There’s a reason why they didn’t tell you in advance what that meeting was going to be about.
Whatever else happens in the next meeting, try to avoid telling them what any of those ideas about your value are. You don’t want to have a second conversation that you are not yet prepared for. They’ll agree to whatever time frame you suggest because they are getting you at the rate they chose (at least for now) and their focus is probably not too much beyond the next 3 months anyway. So there is zero risk and little cost to you in a tactical delay in the continuation of this battle.
Sun Tsu: Most battles are won or lost before they are ever fought (the better prepared combatants usually win).
This battle is not over. It has barely started. It just started with no advance notice to you. Delay for 3 months while you prepare better for the next engagement.
When 3 months has come and gone (and they have probably forgotten about the agreement to meet again) pass by your boss’s office and casually ask your boss if he has a minute for something you need to ask him about. If he says yes, (as in right now), you BE PREPARED for the conversation that comes next. And make sure you are BETTER PREPARED than he is. If on the initial request for a minute to ask him something, he’s too busy… no problem. You can come back at whenever he says he’ll have more time. BUT DO NOT TELL HIM WHAT IT WILL BE ABOUT!
When you do get that meeting, and he asks you what’s on your mind, your answer starts with, “Remember those ideas for making the company more money I told you about when you hired me 3 months ago…? The fist 2 weeks, I did A, B, C… That will make/save us more money by ….(fill in the blank) the next two weeks, I did D, E, F… The next two weeks, I did… X, Y, Z… ”
Rattle off all the stuff you’ve done for you first there months, from paper notes if necessary, and with more detail than you’ve given us here, and then finish off with something like, “We’re kind of a LONG WAY from the job description we talked about when we started on this 3 months ago. When you hired me, I didn’t want to ask for what I thought I would be worth until I had a little time as a perm person to prove it. But now that we know I have…”.
Then, let silence descend on the room…
He’ll know it’s time for him to answer that question you wanted a minute or two to ask him about.
Don’t be surprised if he asks for some time to think about it…
It’s possible he has also read Sun Tsu…
(Have a plan for responding to this if he does it)
If he comes back to you a week later with an offer you are content with, make sure your acceptance of it includes the request to back date that new rate of pay one week back to the date of the meeting where he asked for time to think about it…
You’ll ask for that because you saw that coming and you were prepared for it
😀
Look, it's not my fault that tornado dropped a house on your sister. Now get back on your broom and get your ass out of here... and take your monkeys with you
There’s some good advice here.
One additional one i’d add – have a look through some salary surveys if they’re published in your field – you can even just google your position, title, whatever + “salary survey”. Glassdoor.com usually has some good info on this – your rank, industry, even down to the individual company.
With that information, you can very easily tell them, “I’m asked to perform job X, and your offer is salary Y. But the average salary for X is actually Z, which is lower than what you’re offering me. I wouldn’t want to be in a position where i have to look elsewhere for a fair valuation of what i bring to the table.”
Reading this, I am glad to have never been employed in the formal sector.
Reading this, I am glad to have never been employed in the formal sector.
I’m not. I still only do oddjobs because I can’t find a real job(unless it is active duty military). The only reason I haven’t enlisted yet is because I’m working on my associats degree.
I'm married to the game,but she broke her vows.
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