Home › Forums › MGTOW Central › How much of modern western life is focused on placating women and Blue Pill?
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IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) 3 years, 11 months ago.
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So, here I am looking over my life, and all over the place, I see a ton of things are geared towards meeting social norms, and expectations, based around marriage, getting a women, and addressing societal guilt (keeping up with the Joneses) and expectations of strangers. Feel free to list others, but here is some that come to mind:
* Gym memberships and pumping iron. There is a need to be in shape, but who exactly is to do this man of muscles body type for? It is PUA Bull.
* Driving a fancy car, wearing fancy clothes, etc… If you have an intrinsic interest in such things, fine. But the most of it? It is to impress others.
* Getting the latest electronic gadgets and toys. Again, if you have a hobby interest in something, fine. But why the drive to wait in line to get the latest iPhone?
* Getting heavily involved in social media. Think about the time people spend on Facebook, reading Twitter, and so on. Even Internet gossip stuff. It is all tracking stuff that doesn’t matter. Women particularly get into tabloid BS.
* The whole family buying patterns of owning a home, etc…. Think of all the stuff that goes into that.
* Getting hung up over brands and labels, right down to stupid fanboy wars over corporately produced intellectual property. There is religious devotion (Scientific research showed that that hardcore brands devotion is the same part shown with religious devotion) to corporate brands out there and endless arguing over them.There is a lot more to it this, but this popped into my head. How much more free is a man who ignores all that, lives by more modest means and tends to a craft, or something else? Just pondering. I would say a LOT of this stuff comes out of a man getting a wife, and family, and trying to fit in with his neighbors, and finding conventions that make his life more comfortable. Go MGTOW, and how much more free can you be?
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
Anonymous42TV RIP.
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The latest and greatest RIP.
But I am working on a real cool F4-U corsair I plan on buzzing the
neighborhoodB.C.F.C. with!I can’t wait to get an ultralite to practice s~~~ bombing runs! Pilot to asshole, turds away!!!
Gym memberships and pumping iron. There is a need to be in shape, but who exactly is to do this man of muscles body type for? It is PUA Bull.
Unfortunately, I am not in shape due to injuries that prevent me from doing anything but walking and light weights. But if I didn’t have these injuries I would definitely increase my exercise. The reason being is that I want to feel fast and powerful. One thing I miss is being able to move fast and to feel strong. I used to be both of those things and I enjoyed those aspects of physical fitness for the pleasure they gave me.
I’ve read a lot of philosophy and they talk of a mind-body link. Physical fitness is advocated because it also increases strength of the mind. Shaolin monks are incredibly fit and would probably have amazingly muscular bodies. But they certainly don’t have those bodies to impress women with.
If you honed your physical fitness against the rigours of nature you would end up having a very muscular body. But this would come by doing things that are intrinsically pleasurable. A lot of guys who work out do it because they want to feel strong, not look good. But being strong generally makes a man look good too. It’s an added bonus.
Which came first in human history? Male virility or PUA bull? Don’t let this bulls~~~ world stop you from going to the gym if you want to. I would argue that a lot of guys in the gym are doing it because it makes them feel good. They do gym instead of some other physical activity. Some guys ride bikes, rock climb, swim, hike, dive, etc. Do men working out in prison do it because of some PUA bull? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF52ooDPZEM
Driving a fancy car, wearing fancy clothes, etc… If you have an intrinsic interest in such things, fine. But the most of it? It is to impress others.
I don’t know if impressing others is a blue pill action. In fact, Neo in the Matrix wanted to impress the red pill people by becoming red pill himself. And they all wanted him to impress them. We here on the forum are impressed by people’s posts and efforts to become red pill. I am impressed by people’s intelligence. But does that mean that intelligent behaviour is blue pill because it impresses me?
I’m not sure what you mean by fancy clothes. I believe that if you’re in public you should wear good clothes (not fancy clothes). And this is because I want to make a good impression. Buddha taught the monks to dress in a good quality, clean robe. He did not advocate dressing shabbily nor dressing garishly. The reason I wish to dress neatly is that I believe it reflects an inner quality. Therefore, when you interact with people they will be more likely to receive you positively. You never know when you may require some positive interaction from people (any people).
Men used to dress well to impress other men. They were open to opportunity and wanted to leave a good impression with a male who may be able to help them achieve something. Say a work colleague asks you out for lunch and you turn up dressed very slack. But then at lunch your colleague bumps into a contact of his who is looking to hire someone for a job that you are very keen on getting. Now, how do you feel when your colleague introduces you to his contact and you look like a bum? What instant (instinctual) impression does he form of you? Will this help or hinder your odds of being hired?
It is these unknown possibilities that I base my dress choices on.
Getting the latest electronic gadgets and toys. Again, if you have a hobby interest in something, fine. But why the drive to wait in line to get the latest iPhone?
Agree with you here. But it mostly seems like Asians who line up for the latest iphone. They are more communal than Westerners.
Getting heavily involved in social media. Think about the time people spend on Facebook, reading Twitter, and so on. Even Internet gossip stuff. It is all tracking stuff that doesn’t matter. Women particularly get into tabloid BS.
Yeah. Nothing really to see there.
The whole family buying patterns of owning a home, etc…. Think of all the stuff that goes into that.
Owning a home does seem to incur a massive opportunity cost. IF you were able to borrow that money and put it into a business instead, I’d say you will be better off. Home ownership does seem to be quite blue pill because every aspect of the home is plugged into the matrix. And it offers not prospect of getting out of the matrix. At least with a business you might generate enough profit to eventually unplug yourself.
Getting hung up over brands and labels, right down to stupid fanboy wars over corporately produced intellectual property. There is religious devotion (Scientific research showed that that hardcore brands devotion is the same part shown with religious devotion) to corporate brands out there and endless arguing over them.
Seems pretty blue pill to me.
I would say a LOT of this stuff comes out of a man getting a wife, and family, and trying to fit in with his neighbors, and finding conventions that make his life more comfortable.
Would be interesting to get a military man’s perspective. Because traditionally, the military required that a man conduct himself in a prescribed manner. Physical fitness, cleanliness, obedience, respect (manners), etc. But traditionally, women had nothing to do with the military so all these requirements couldn’t have been to get a wife, family, etc. It seems that from a military point of view, that impressive actions have intrinsic value. Therefore, if the individual members of an army have intrinsic value, then the army as a whole will have intrinsic value. This seems very important. Perhaps a military man can explain it to us.
Particularly, why does the military advocate working out, and on occasion wearing fancy clothes?
Yes, interesting isn’t it, how materialism and aestheticism have become bankrupt substitutes for a much deeper longing. Perhaps it is about “keeping up with the Jones'” but I sense that there is something even more significant still.
I’ve been having something of a premature midlife crisis of late but it isn’t directly related to my sense of social detachment, it’s more to do with the absence of a discernable purpose in life beyond the the accumulation of ‘stuff’ and the admiration of passing acquaintances.
I confess, whilst I am fond subscriber to the physical sciences, more recently, I’ve started flirting with more esoteric philosophies and, for the first time, I feel like I’m no longer treading on well worn ground. Instead, I find new forms of meaning in abstraction. Perhaps, all ‘we’ need is inspiration and the prospect of contributing to something ‘greater’.
After all, isn’t that what countless generations of men have done before.. constructed wonders as a testament to their own existence and a legacy for those who follow? But, it’s a very involved question and perhaps there is no clear answer.
Gym memberships and pumping iron. There is a need to be in shape, but who exactly is to do this man of muscles body type for? It is PUA Bull.
Unfortunately, I am not in shape due to injuries that prevent me from doing anything but walking and light weights. But if I didn’t have these injuries I would definitely increase my exercise. The reason being is that I want to feel fast and powerful. One thing I miss is being able to move fast and to feel strong. I used to be both of those things and I enjoyed those aspects of physical fitness for the pleasure they gave me.
I’ve read a lot of philosophy and they talk of a mind-body link. Physical fitness is advocated because it also increases strength of the mind. Shaolin monks are incredibly fit and would probably have amazingly muscular bodies. But they certainly don’t have those bodies to impress women with.
I go to a gym also. I am looking to lose weight also. I had two back surgeries, and figure losing weight could help. There is a room for being fit. What I am speaking more of is the body builder mentality, and you see in body building magazine, the guys with women around them. If it is a guy’s thing, that is fine, but you see with the likes of the neo-masculinity BS, where lifting weights is put on men as a “man” thing to do. There, in this, is this sort of ideal form that men are told to have, even if it doesn’t fit a man’s body at all. You see men do steroids, etc… and other things that can shorten life, for the sake of trying to match this BS image.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
Yes, interesting isn’t it, how materialism and aestheticism have become bankrupt substitutes for a much deeper longing. Perhaps it is about “keeping up with the Jones’” but I sense that there is something even more significant still.
I’ve been having something of a premature midlife crisis of late but it isn’t directly related to my sense of social detachment, it’s more to do with the absence of a discernable purpose in life beyond the the accumulation of ‘stuff’ and the admiration of passing acquaintances.
I confess, whilst I am fond subscriber to the physical sciences, more recently, I’ve started flirting with more esoteric philosophies and, for the first time, I feel like I’m no longer treading on well worn ground. Instead, I find new forms of meaning in abstraction. Perhaps, all ‘we’ need is inspiration and the prospect of contributing to something ‘greater’.
After all, isn’t that what countless generations of men have done before.. constructed wonders as a testament to their own existence and a legacy for those who follow? But, it’s a very involved question and perhaps there is no clear answer.
I would say a core point of MGTOW is a man finding his way in life. That helps in a lot of ways. I have been doing a series of videos related to tips in this area. They don’t get a lot of views, but I consider them of value. It is pretty much dig up what I can, throw it against the wall, and see whatever sticks for each man.
You can see the series here (a few are not by me):
I discuss Logostherapy and also Ayn Rand’s immortal robot. I will be adding some Bible stuff in there also.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
my answer , A LOT of western life is focused on placating women and blue-pillers.
way, way too much time,money,energy..
good point on brand loyalty being like religion..seems that way.
let them .
i’m not participating in the consumer-fest .
no t.v.
no social media.
no to paying to use a gym.
i went to a mall about a week ago..
seems the ” mother-daughter ” duo is vey popular..spending dad’s money no doubt.
shallow minded consumers unable to think critically ..
PERFECT for a any government to control.Years ago bodybuilding was basically a cult.
A somewhat closed group who strove to build and chisel athletically to achieve an artistically defined goal, while not giving a tinker’s dam what others thought. While there are ‘mostly’ the same mentalities regarding this today, something has been lost.
The purity of MGTOW right now, this second, reminds me of bodybuilding’s earlier days.
Anything that can be done to disallow it’s dilution is crucial.
All “of modern western life” pushes, and Paul van Cheese and Sandmam will be followed by others."It seems like there's times a body gets struck down so low, there ain't a power on earth that can ever bring him up again. Seems like something inside dies so he don't even want to get up again. But he does."
my answer , A LOT of western life is focused on placating women and blue-pillers.
way, way too much time,money,energy..
good point on brand loyalty being like religion..seems that way.
let them .
i’m not participating in the consumer-fest .
no t.v.
no social media.
no to paying to use a gym.
i went to a mall about a week ago..
seems the ” mother-daughter ” duo is vey popular..spending dad’s money no doubt.
shallow minded consumers unable to think critically ..
PERFECT for a any government to control.A distracted mind is a powerless one – Dalai Lama
What I’ve learned is that guilt just leads to malcontent and despondence. If you want to increase your happiness you should learn to be grateful for what you do have, Eg. health, friends, kids, etc. There’s always someone worse of than yourself too. So looking at those things you can realize life isn’t so bad. We know the grass is greener on the partner free side, yet many guys don’t realize this and feel despair for being single.
Therefore it’s essential to learn how to be optimistic.It’s ok to have material things, but if you constantly want more and cannot have these things then you are living in poverty – Dalai Lama
Guilt aka ‘keeping up with the Jones’s’ is nonsense, the Buddhists don’t believe in it (I figure they’re happy) and it doesn’t help to achieve goals in the long run. Look at how much yoyo dieting there is today based on guilt. The diet works for a week and one gives up and goes back to where they were previously. Success and happiness is based on just getting up and doing something by breaking it up into small pieces, just having the courage to take one small step. When viewed this way that one step becomes many steps and eventually a habit.
The notion that you have to crawl before you can walk is true when it comes to achieving goals and should be substituted with guilt. So if you really do want to go to the gym just tell yourself you’ll just put your gym clothes on, then that you’ll just walk out the front with your gym bag, then just drive to the gym..
Courage is the key to life itself - Morgan Freeman
Driving a fancy car,
Please be aware that there is a difference between a “fancy” car and one that is fun to drive. Sometimes there’s overlap, but not always.
wearing fancy clothes, etc… If you have an intrinsic interest in such things, fine. But the most of it? It is to impress others.
I’m going to just put this out there: a black man in a tailored suit gets hassled a lot less, or rather – not at all, than a black man not in a tailored suit. Sometimes how you dress is not about impressing people but about not making the wrong impression.
Clothes make the man.
Also there’s a lot of amusement to be had from using the blue pill playbook to f~~~ with women instead of placating them. Nothing frustrates and angers them more than finding a successful man with a house and car and savings and this and that and the other only to learn there’s no way in hell they are ever getting their hands on any of it.
Driving a fancy car,
Please be aware that there is a difference between a “fancy” car and one that is fun to drive. Sometimes there’s overlap, but not always.
If a man has the money, and he enjoys how the car handles, and drives, that wouldn’t be what I am talking about. I think it might be more like this: In my case, a BMW interested me because of the tech. There is, on the other hand, where I do a Bond fantasy thing, with a woman on my carm, and drive up to a casino in an expensive sports car that looks like it has a lot of power, to impress. I was saying this as where the idea came from, if it was given to me by media, or internally.
wearing fancy clothes, etc… If you have an intrinsic interest in such things, fine. But the most of it? It is to impress others.
I’m going to just put this out there: a black man in a tailored suit gets hassled a lot less, or rather – not at all, than a black man not in a tailored suit. Sometimes how you dress is not about impressing people but about not making the wrong impression.
Clothes make the man.
Also there’s a lot of amusement to be had from using the blue pill playbook to f~~~ with women instead of placating them. Nothing frustrates and angers them more than finding a successful man with a house and car and savings and this and that and the other only to learn there’s no way in hell they are ever getting their hands on any of it.
You have celeb types, particularly in sports, who go out to clubs all blinged out, and all they do is become the target of thieves.
I would say you have some validity in what you said. However, I would question how much of it comes with social conformity and Blue Pill thinking, in regards to the “make the man” part. I was about to say “make oneself presentable” is decent, but where does that come from? That is what I question here. And who the hell would I be interacting with anyhow? I personally dealt enough with image BS stuff, to see it doesn’t matter. I recall going out to Vegas with a former business partner, and he had all this idea about spin and impressing others, thinking it would get him cash. What I found is that it didn’t matter. People with money, still filter things, and you get nowhere. With that, I consider a Blue Pill approach to be to try to spin with image, rather being genuinely who you are, and being of value.
For myself, it is a lot about utility. And I am a white man anyhow, so not sure where I worry about dress, etc… There is a given with a job interview you wear a suit. But with a job, I just dress business casual. I see if you dress like a thug or gang member (I can see this is another form of Blue Pill), and you will have problems.
Anyhow, just my take. I am sure others see this differently.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
I was about to say “make oneself presentable” is decent, but where does that come from?
It comes from the fact that people, not just women, see your clothes before and more than they see you yourself. A man in a hard hat and tool belt will be immediately identified as a construction worker. A lab coat and stethoscope identifies a doctor. A briefcase identifies a man as some sort of professional. And so on. It’s just how people are.
So how you dress is not always or even usually about impressing people or getting attention. Often it’s about not getting attention. It’s about not standing out. If you’re the one man in a t-shirt and sweat pants in a room full of men in three piece suits, you’re going to stand out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.
I was about to say “make oneself presentable” is decent, but where does that come from?
It comes from the fact that people, not just women, see your clothes before and more than they see you yourself. A man in a hard hat and tool belt will be immediately identified as a construction worker. A lab coat and stethoscope identifies a doctor. A briefcase identifies a man as some sort of professional. And so on. It’s just how people are.
So how you dress is not always or even usually about impressing people or getting attention. Often it’s about not getting attention. It’s about not standing out. If you’re the one man in a t-shirt and sweat pants in a room full of men in three piece suits, you’re going to stand out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.
Why does that matter? I would need to know the context by which this is a problem. I don’t care what strangers think at all. Maybe I am missing something, but why should I care? I wear very generic clothes, and just go about my life. I will buy off the rack at Walmart, if I need to. It doesn’t get me in trouble at work, and helps me go ninja when I am out. Now, if i have sales, and other such things, I understand the need for image. What I do see, however, is all that is part of the Blue Pill system to keep men in the ratrace, to keep up with the Joneses.
In the guys with the business suits, am I supposed to be trying to do business with them? If not, then why do I care? Anyhow, please fill me in.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
I was about to say “make oneself presentable” is decent, but where does that come from?
It comes from the fact that people, not just women, see your clothes before and more than they see you yourself. A man in a hard hat and tool belt will be immediately identified as a construction worker. A lab coat and stethoscope identifies a doctor. A briefcase identifies a man as some sort of professional. And so on. It’s just how people are.
So how you dress is not always or even usually about impressing people or getting attention. Often it’s about not getting attention. It’s about not standing out. If you’re the one man in a t-shirt and sweat pants in a room full of men in three piece suits, you’re going to stand out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.
Why does that matter? I would need to know the context by which this is a problem. I don’t care what strangers think at all. Maybe I am missing something, but why should I care? I wear very generic clothes, and just go about my life. I will buy off the rack at Walmart, if I need to. It doesn’t get me in trouble at work, and helps me go ninja when I am out. Now, if i have sales, and other such things, I understand the need for image. What I do see, however, is all that is part of the Blue Pill system to keep men in the ratrace, to keep up with the Joneses.
In the guys with the business suits, am I supposed to be trying to do business with them? If not, then why do I care? Anyhow, please fill me in.
What we’re saying is that it is not blue pill to dress in a way that leaves a ‘good’ impression.
For me it gets down to an argument about the existence of absolute (non-subjective) beauty. I think that qualities exist in an absolute form independent of human judgement. This is probably a very optimistic view of the world because it means that no matter how depraved people get, there will always be an anchor point of purity that they can remodel themselves on once the depravity has run its course.
There is a saying: ‘The Devil marks his man’.
Here’s the thing that I don’t think you’re getting @richardhutnick : Clothes, any clothes, are just a tool for keeping you warm or dry or cool or whatever. And clothes are also a tool for identifying you to other people. And just as you wouldn’t use a chainsaw to drive a nail, you wouldn’t wear pajamas to a job interview etc. With the right clothes you can bypass a whole lot of tedious, unnecessary interaction and get down to business. Think of them as lock picks for other people’s minds.
And like any other tool, or anything really, they are neither blue-pill or red-pill. What makes them blue-pill or red-pill depends entirely on what you do with them. If you wear a suit to get a better, easier job to make more money for yourself to enjoy your life more, you are straight up red pill. If you wear a lot of tacky gold chains and other junk to beg for pussy, you are a sad sack blue pill.
The red-pill and blue-pill are behaviors and knowledge and awareness (or the lack thereof), not mere things. The blue-pill man is unaware of the world around him and bases his behavior on lies and falsehoods for the benefit of others. He is a chump. A red-pill man is merely one who is aware of the blue-pill lies and acts accordingly. He can either reject the blue-pill world and try walk away from it, or he can use his red-pill awareness to use the blue-pill world for his own benefit. He’s red-pill either way.
What I see is that the PUA ends up thinking he knows the world around him, and will try to game it to get women. In this, he ends up going through all sorts of hoops, sells his soul for certain techniques, in order to get a woman. He is not driven by an inward purpose, but base biological drives and putting on an image to try to meet these urges. The entire process is “the game” in his world, and he keeps playing it. Of course, because it is “the game” the world set up, he doesn’t own it, and just plays by certain rules he is not in control of at all. And with this, the rules are constantly changing to screen out techniques and he wastes his life trying to follow these.
You take this PUA mentality, and you extend it, and you have what the Blue Pill world does. With this, it is staying on latest trends, keeping up with the Jones, and so on, and being souless, thinking you will win. You have no way, you are just following what everyone else is doing. There is a whole pile of social media BS that goes with this to, where empty media types (you see a bunch on YouTube, and also in SJW circles) playing this, living and dying by being trendy.
Now, let me contrast this with what I can be in going MGTOW for some men. That is ignoring all these, all this bull that the Blue Pill world goes through, and finding your own purpose internally, and then organizing everything around this purpose. It is your own, and isn’t driven by social norms or all these other forms of manipulation and trying to “fit in”. In some cases it can look similar, but the reasons are different and they serve different purposes. Those purposes are your own, not what the world around you says, even if you do dress nice, have a good car, have muscles and so on. And with my original post, what I was saying, by ignoring all this need to keep up with others bit, one can get freed to do other things. It is just a matter of what fits your way, rather than what ends up putting on spin to impress those you don’t even know.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
What I see is that the PUA ends up thinking he knows the world around him, and will try to game it to get women. In this, he ends up going through all sorts of hoops, sells his soul for certain techniques, in order to get a woman.
But that’s because the PUA does not have red-pill awareness. He might think he does, but it’s all an act, and the only one he’s fooling is himself. His self worth and his goals are still defined by others, not himself. And so he ends up serving the blue pill wants of others.
Going back to the matter of suits, a blue pill man gets a suit to take the interview to get the better job to make more money to acquire material goods to impress women and on and on. A red pill man gets a suit to take an interview to get a better job to get paid more for the work he does so he can work less and have more time to himself to do the things he wants to do. Both use the same tool, the suit, and in similar ways, but for entirely different reasons and goals. The blue-pill man benefits others in the vain hope that they might reciprocate. The red-pill man uses the suit to benefit himself.
Always ask: “What’s in it for me?”
If there’s no benefit to you in wearing a suit etc., then don’t bother, but if there is a real benefit to you, don’t eschew such things simply because some other men, blue pill men, use them to make chumps of themselves.
What I would say is a Blue Pill is trying to go out and speculate what strangers approve of, and organizes their life around all this, with no regard to what works for him personally, and merely fills his life with trendiness as an end in itself. It is only not aware of the situation, but also not caring either. It would be the case of Cypher to some degree. I would say there is a batch of fear in what a Blue Pill does, because he is scared about what strangers may think.
Now, I would say the Red Pill approach is not only knowing about it, but freely deciding to do something, for strategic reasons.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
I would say there is a batch of fear in what a Blue Pill does, because he is scared about what strangers may think.
Exactly. At the same time a red-pill man does things specifically to manipulate what strangers may think. The blue-pill man is reactive. He makes himself just a utility. The red-pill man is active. He has agency.
I would say there is a batch of fear in what a Blue Pill does, because he is scared about what strangers may think.
Exactly. At the same time a red-pill man does things specifically to manipulate what strangers may think. The blue-pill man is reactive. He makes himself just a utility. The red-pill man is active. He has agency.
As far as I go, I don’t try to manipulate what anyone thinks. I do whatever works for me, and clearly communicate my boundaries for others, and let the chips fall where they may. I try to avoid all situations that compromise my principles. I also then work to get things better than they had been. I find trying to go the manipulation route ends up making complications I don’t need later, and doesn’t draw to me things that are more beneficial for me down the road. Like, I do go to a single’s group in the area. I could try to manipulate and fake interest. I just come out and flat out say I am there to play tabletop games only and have no interest in anything else. I also expressed a dislike in a number of games they play. I communicate this. People can go along with what I have an interest or not. If it ends up not of interest, I just leave. I don’t this, because I make it so I can afford to walk away. I see Blue Pill can’t do this, and they need to feel like they have to fit in.
Now, my job is a different animal. I get paid, so I act certain ways, to keep my job I have.
"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.
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