Has anyone's Religion been replaced by MGTOW?!

[FitzBonesParticipant 304]

Evolution cannot exist because it is dependent on a linear translation of time. Evolution can only exist if time is linear, other wise it is possible that “pre-human” might exist now and/or in the future again. If they exist now and or in the future then evolution is unnecessary for survival.

Why would time remain linear for the past X amount of years in order for humans culture to grow and develop; our technology to adapt and civilizations to rise and fall only to twist in on itself at an unspecified point in the future? I understand the most basic concept of non-linear time and based on your assumption of non-linear time then I still dont see how evolution is unnecessary.
Even in the future should for whatever reason, see neanderthals running around then that still would not negate the necessity of neanderthals in the past in order for us to develop to where we are now. Just because they may be in the future(Based on that assumption) does not disprove evolution, it only changes our understanding of time

However, time is a measurement of movements and that in itself is abstract and cannot lend itself to a form.

True and with nothing existing then it might be assumed that time doesnt pass; it comes to the rather trite philosphical question “If a tree falls and noone around to hear it, does it make a sound”
Logic tells us that yes, the tree does make a sound and that yes, time must pass even when there is nothing to observe it.

because it applies to all religions and philosophies it must also be applied to evolution.

True but to my knowledge, evolution is trying to return control of peoples lives back to their owners; rather than a mystical being and his nemesis who can be blamed for everything good and bad on the planet, actions included. People use the devil as a scapegoat for their own dark side; Ive seen it too many times to believe that tripe anymore but by discovering evidence for the theory of evolution it returns that power and responsibility for our actions back to our own hands.

Then why are “complex” organisms always seeking efficiency? If complexity does not promote survivability what is the point of being complex? Adapting to survive is different than adapting to be complex.

Each adaption makes the being more complex; I do think that complexity aids in survivability since a more complex being is more adaptable.

Dogma is a set of beliefs and/or practices. Even atheist and agnostics cannot avoid them. Their is nothing wrong with possessing a dogma/dogmas. It is natural to the human existence. It is more open minded to say something is possible rather than impossible.

Perhaps I use dogma in a different context than its meaning though I am assured my use is not wrong per se but simply needs clarification. I use the term Dogma to describe a set of beliefs and/or practices, as you do but where I think my meaning has differed is that to me, dogmatic beliefs are unchangeable, un-questionable and completely closed to discussion and so a dogma is not simply beliefs and practices, but extremely close-minded, unwilling and incapable of changing.

Belief in God is more a matter of the heart. Not in the sense of some transient feeling or being “enlightened” but rather something beyond any of those. It is something almost beyond belief itself.

Psychosomatics is my honest opinion on those that see Gods handiwork before them, that feel His love for them, that have that Faith in Him. They want him to exist, they want to see and feel him and so because their desire is so powerful their own mind provides the evidence

For the record I am sensing some hostility towards religious people.

Only some? I’ve mentioned my past in religion and though I try very hard to be fair-minded and even will all people, there is still alot of deep-seated anger and rage at religion in general.
Not only that but my ex was religious also(Catholic) and was very dogmatic, refused to discuss it with me and when I would question what she was doing she would get irate and emotionally abusive since she could not justify scriptural reasons why and only had the mantra “Its always done like that” instead of explaining how it gelled with the teachings. She was vehemently religious but didnt honestly know what she believed in.
Theres alot for me to move past in regards to religion and religious people but that doesnt stop my fascination with it and each belief held dear by different groups

"If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds' worth of distance run,"

[John DoeParticipant 743]

“Even in the future should for whatever reason, see neanderthals running around then that still would not negate the necessity of neanderthals in the past in order for us to develop to where we are now. Just because they may be in the future(Based on that assumption) does not disprove evolution, it only changes our understanding of time”

Evolution is all about time.  If we hypothetical seen Neanderthals in the future or now it just proved evolution did not happen at all.  It is like saying we had Neanderthals in the past so we can have them in the future.  No evolution is required.

+On a separate note, there are no bones connecting showing the interconnection of evolution between two species.  Even if there were the evidence points to racial differences amongst early peoples, not evolution.

“However, time is a measurement of movements and that in itself is abstract and cannot lend itself to a form”

My point is that western science and philosophy seeks to push time into a form and that form is a line.  Time, because part of its nature is the measurement of interconnected movements, is an abstract concept.  You cannot form an abstract concept into a shape.  You cannot say 2 is shaped like a square.  However, with the linear translation of time, that is exactly what happens with time.  It is a line.  Evolution requires all existence to move in a linear fashion throughout space.  Unless all movement in linear in nature, evolution cannot exist.

“If a tree falls and noone around to hear it, does it make a sound”
Logic tells us that yes, the tree does make a sound and that yes, time must pass even when there is nothing to observe it

I am not talking about whether or not time exists based on observation.  That example is faulty.  I am talking how it is perceive.  Not whether it exists or does not exist.  Evolution is a faulty perception.

“True but to my knowledge, evolution is trying to return control of peoples lives back to their owners”

Go back to my point about how the industrialized psyche relates to people and their view on evolution.

You are implying two things.  First that people had total control over their own existence in the first place.  If that was the case then we are devolving.  Second you are implying we lost control to begin with.  A median between these two points might be, that we have control over some things but not over everything.  The greeks from over 2000 years ago had the same philosophical point.  If that is true we have not evolved at all in 2000 years.  Assuming evolution relates to the acquisition of power.

Again although I defend religions in the above arguments I have not pushed it on you.  You keep bringing it up.  So I will respond.

“rather than a mystical being and his nemesis who can be blamed for everything good and bad on the planet, actions included. People use the devil as a scapegoat for their own dark side;

What you are saying is false.   Here are multiple translations of the same quote from your religious background that proves your understanding and/or their preaching is contradictory.  There is no reference to the/a devil at all in regards to who is responsible for man’s “dark side”.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts–murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>New Living Translation</span>
For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>English Standard Version</span>
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>New American Standard Bible </span>
“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>King James Bible</span>
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>Holman Christian Standard Bible</span>
For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>International Standard Version</span>
It is out of the heart that evil thoughts come, as well as murder, adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, false testimony, and slander.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>NET Bible</span>
For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.<span class=”p”>

</span><span class=”versiontext”>Aramaic Bible in Plain English</span>
“For from the heart proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, murders, fornications, thefts, lying testimonies, blasphemies.”<span class=”p”>

</span>

“Ive seen it too many times to believe that tripe anymore but by discovering evidence for the theory of evolution it returns that power and responsibility for our actions back to our own hands.”

Power over what?

 

Psychosomatics is my honest opinion on those that see Gods handiwork before them, that feel His love for them, that have that Faith in Him. They <span style=”font-family: Thread-00005158-Id-00000088;”>want</span> him to exist, they <span style=”font-family: Thread-00005158-Id-00000088;”>want</span> to see and feel him and so because their desire is so powerful their own mind provides the evidence.

There are two points of response I have here.  First, Psychosomatics can be applied to the theory of evolution also.  You stated yourself that evolution gives man the power they lost.  You believe in evolution because you want power in your own life. It can be applied to a lot of things actually.

Second, either I was not exact enough in what I said or you took my quote out of context.  A belief in God does not require an emotional feeling or the desire to be loved etc.  I said it was not necessary to have those.  That is why I used the term beyond.  Belief is not required for God to exist either.  On a personal level, the belief in God has not made my life any harder or easier.

 

“Only some? I’ve mentioned my past in religion and though I try very hard to be fair-minded and even will all people, there is still alot of deep-seated anger and rage at religion in general.
Not only that but my ex was religious also(Catholic) and was very dogmatic, refused to discuss it with me and when I would question what she was doing she would get irate and emotionally abusive since she could not justify scriptural reasons why and only had the mantra “Its always done like that” instead of explaining how it gelled with the teachings. She was vehemently religious but didnt honestly know what she believed in.
Theres alot for me to move past in regards to religion and religious people but that doesnt stop my fascination with it and each belief held dear by different groups”

In regards to today’s discussion/debate, I think this is where the core of it is.

From this perspective I can pass no judgment on you because I have been through very similar if not worse circumstances.  First for this debate to continue.  You will have to first understand why you are angry with religion/religious people.  If you do not, I cannot provide an argument.

You have to first understand you were looking for educational answers from a woman.  I do not know what you expected to be honest.

To quote her faith:

<span class=”versiontext”>Douay-Rheims Bible</span>
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Looking to a woman for an answer over anything, including religion, invites trouble.  This whole forum is a testament to that.

I really cannot offer an argument past that woman issue because that seems the only point you brought up.  There is not enough information in the argument/example for me to provide anymore points or counter points.

 

On a separate point, you will find most people do not follow their own religion/philosophies anyhow.

Another separate point.  If your girlfriend was Catholic then she should have known that evolution does not contradict her faith.  As a matter of fact the Catholic faith says it is entirely possible.  If that is the perspective where you are coming from, then I am still confused why you keep bringing up religion.  I understand your anger/rage at any injustice that was inflicted against you.  Most of us have been there.  However, I will state again my argument against evolution is not for religious reasons.  I believe it is a faulty theory on its own terms.  If you want to discuss your anger towards religion, that is a separate topic I have no problem debating with you.

I do not want to mix the two too much because it invites confusion as we have seen.

 

 

[FitzBonesParticipant 304]

Again although I defend religions in the above arguments I have not pushed it on you. You keep bringing it up.

I bring it up because it is what I know best; I simply am not educated enough to know alot about evolution nor do I have any overwhelming interest in it. I just cannot and perhaps to my fault, WILL not believe in a God or a creation theory and so I try to discuss the point on a level I know better in order to make my own perceptions clearer.
The theory of evolution answers many of the basic questions, but not all and thats ok for me since humans are not omniscient nor do we claim to be. As we learn more, the theory will alter and adapt accordingly.

You are implying two things. First that people had total control over their own existence in the first place. If that was the case then we are devolving. Second you are implying we lost control to begin with. A median between these two points might be, that we have control over some things but not over everything. The greeks from over 2000 years ago had the same philosophical point. If that is true we have not evolved at all in 2000 years. Assuming evolution relates to the acquisition of power.

I dont think people had any control over their own existence from the start; in much older and harder times I think everyone was controlled by the group needs and devoted their lives to providing for the clan they were a part of. My implications are that with the development of the church, control was given over to them. Control of our conscience and thus our actions and beliefs.
As to evolving in 2000 years, adaption is possible but evolution itself is unlikely to happen so fast.

There is no reference to the/a devil at all in regards to who is responsible for man’s “dark side”.

True, but thats not what I was saying. I was saying that parishioners of every church I have visited have all had one thing in common; that the devil was to blame for their actions and the church would forgive them. They completely shrugged off responsibility for their own actions onto a fictional being and refused to acknowledge they did wrong, and in doing so refused to change and improve themselves.
It also answers your queries into why I dislike religion so. My own issues with the church I was a fanatical part of are largely irrelevant in my life now. Once upon a time I was a zealot, I saw too many things and lost faith in religion. I now remove myself from any religious groups and simply want nothing to do with them.
However my primary reason for disliking religion is that it stagnates people. They attend church, miserable as f~~~ and pray to God that He fix their lives. They dont take responsibility for their own lives, their own actions and expect a supreme being to just make it all better instead of doing it for themselves.
I’m well aware that the Bible doesnt teach such laziness but regardless it is allowed and sometimes even encouraged in churches to “put the burden on god” and allow Him to fix everything instead of improving themselves and their situation.

You have to first understand you were looking for educational answers from a woman. I do not know what you expected to be honest.

The example of my ex was not intentionally meant to be a point, but simply an example of many Christian faiths; where the parishioner is so ignorant of their beliefs but such a staunch supporter of them that it boggles my mind. For me to ever back something to the hilt like that, I will know everything there is to know and why things are the way they are.

However, I will state again my argument against evolution is not for religious reasons. I believe it is a faulty theory on its own terms.

Quite possibly, I have never and will never claim to be an expert. I await further evidence, really. I think its a viable theory, and certainly prefer it over creation but as yet it remains a theory until stronger evidence is uncovered.

"If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds' worth of distance run,"

[MjolnirParticipant 23]

Personally I never had a religion even though Im from a christian country. The biggest problem I have with christianity is that they teach weakness. They teach us that we are born flawed beings, they teach men to sit on a knee and pray for forgiveness for made up sins. If I’d chose a religion I’d take a religion that take a more positive spin on life. Like the norse mythology where strength and bravery are noble traits and no man is born into the world full of sin having to repent.

MGTOW is not a religion for me though, as the clip from dogma said, a belief cannot be easily changed when refuted but an idea can be modified to fit the current life situation. MGTOW give good lessons to live by, but you yourself can chose how to live that life.

 

Keymaster talked earlier in this thread about real men vs fake men and brought a very valid point. Everyone is a real man, and one shouldn’t be shamed into doing something to prove ones manliness. I do see an heirarchy among men. Every man is real, but there are men, there are good men and there are great men depending on how they decide to live their life. No matter how a person views manhood, Isaac Newton or Leonardo Da Vinci were great men that eclipses most other men in history. I think the difference in proving ones manhood and become a better man is that the former is build on shame, the latter is build upon wanting to become the idealized version of oneself (I.e. ownership of ones own life). No matter the person, stagnation is one of the worst thing that can happen in life.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Fitzbones:  In regards to any religion or philosophy it has to be looked at on its own terms.  I understand your experiences more than you know or I would prefer to talk about.  But last time I checked putting faith in people never made one a follower to begin with.  You claim man can fix his own problems, but last time I checked Feminism was one of his solutions.  An we are all here dealing with its repercussions in one way, shape, or form.

Atheism/related philosophies do not have a strong track record either, actually it is very worse.

-It has caused more war, persecution, and poverty in the 20th century alone than all recorded religious wars combined.

-It’s philosophy is illogical. You cannot prove a negative.

-Atheists have faith in science but ignore the fact that most scientists believed in a Divine being of some form.

-Atheists claim that man alone can create a better world.  However they also blame him for all of its problems, such as religion, global warming, etc.

+They also have no vision for what that better world is.  They do not know what it is.  They always talk about progress.  But to progress to what?  Centuries of progress is like centuries on a treadmill.  We are exhausted and got no where.  People still desire the same things from thousands of years ago.  They still seek to dominate each other, lust after any an everything, jealous of everyone, etc.  Nothing has changed.  It is just the same eggs rescrambled.

– I am not really trying to make this thread an argument against Athiesm, because it would take to long, however if you or someone else choose to debate the subject than simply make a thread.

-You have to remember that most religious centers have been thoroughly infected by the culture.  Removing yourself from a group is different than losing faith or belief.  Corruption of any institution is still corruption.

simply an example of many Christian faiths; where the parishioner is so ignorant of their beliefs but such a staunch supporter of them that it boggles my mind.”

Then you said later: “Quite possibly, I have never and will never claim to be an expert. I await further evidence, really.”

You can’t really be angry with people for simply being people, as you yourself have exhibited.  The truth of the matter is noone knows everything.  Religion will admit this.  You can’t expect everyone to be an expert.

Moljnir

The biggest problem I have with christianity is that they teach weakness. They teach us that we are born flawed beings,

You cant blame Christianity for saying humanity is flawed when this whole forum is all about human flaws.

 they teach men to sit on a knee and pray for forgiveness for made up sins.

So lying and adultery is alright?  Fair enough.  Let’s say for argument’s sake it is alright. Then from this point on we can no longer hold any woman accountable for her actions.  There is nothing going wrong with this society.  You cannot have any form of justice without some moral code.

What is wrong about asking forgiveness?  That is only a part of life.

Like the norse mythology where strength and bravery are noble traits and no man is born into the world full of sin having to repent.

+Feminism had a strong hold in Viking society.  Which is why the men probably had to pillage so much, so they could satisfy there wives.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/27/1250982/-Vikings-Women-in-Norse-Society#

+ In Christianity, Christ conquered death itself.  What did Thor do?

+ Norse religion was about hoarding a bunch of useless trinkets.  A lot like what women do today.  Christianity was/is about service to fellow man.  That requires strength and bravery.  You can’t criticize a religion that is barely practiced in this country and blame it for weakening society.  I don’t see what is wrong with Christianity really.  What did Christ do that was so evil?

 

I would have to agree about men being men.  At that end of the day, a man is a man regardless of his actions.

I also agree that MGTOW is not a religion. This whole thread is sort of pointless besides being a mental exercise.  MGTOW is just a response to societal decay.

[MjolnirParticipant 23]

Yeah, everyone is flawed in one way or another. It doesn’t mean one have to go and feel bad about it. Accepting it as human nature and doing the best of the situation seems the most prudent solution. There will always be a moral code of some sort, but basing it on a religious foundation is a bit iffy imo. I refuse to believe I’m born with sin and I don’t believe I need to have to ask god for forgiveness if I screw up, it is something I need to deal with myself and set straight by my own accord.

I thought this forum was about striving for self ownership and leading a life of ones own chosing. That’s the spin I take on it at least.

Women had a strong position in the viking society, and I don’t see a problem with that as long as men have the same amount of respect. Strong woman doesn’t equal feminist or female supremacy. The vikings did far more than just plunder, they were foremost traders. Women also joined the raids as it says in your own link, where they after gold for their wives as well? But to be honest it’s quite irrelevant. It’s more the core principles. If I go out in life I prefer things like bravery and strength as opposed to the teachings of christianity whichs seems to be more passive and more shame filled. Acting is better than reacting.

[JuehueParticipant 1316]

Imo religion usually have some kind of ritual associated with it compare to a philosophy. The ritual brings some spiritual aspect to it. I don’t think MGTOW has one, except feasting your own dinner.

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