Freewill is Bunk: Video Edit of Harris

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Some may be familiar with the Freewill debate or Sam Harris. Sam Harris used to be really cool about 10 years ago before he went full retard on white knighting and succumbed to Trump Derangement Syndrome. Now he is sort of sold-out on the Left. However, he wrote some excellent books in the Atheist arena like The Moral Landscape, Freewill, Letter to a Christian Nation and his first tirade, The End of Faith. All of them are worth reading unless you’re a big Jesus-freak.

Its very sad, because I used to watch Sam destroy people like Dinesh D’Souza. Now I actually like Dinesh more! lol (even though I’m still exceedingly atheist, Sam’s politics are highly repulsive and Dinesh actually has a reasonable idea of how a civil society and government should run). Its funny how your heroes and nemesis’ can swap like that.

Well, clip runs 6:47 minutes. Hope you are ready to concentrate. Some find the topic difficult to grasp.

I made a mistake deleting my former Youtube channel. I didn’t realize that my absolute favorite video I made, that was a homage / edit of an old Messenger Rising video talking about the dangers of pregnancy while bashing Niko Choski…. I lost that video and did not have it backed up. Very sad, as it can not be remade. A true work of art that took 12 hours. Gone. Oh well. That’s life. It probably helped a few men. Maybe one day it will turn up because someone may have copied it off youtube. I think ‘you-know-who’ did but I will never ask him for anything as he went crazy… you know who…

[hmskl’dParticipant 6406]

If free will doesn’t exist wouldn’t the sum of life long random thoughts or determinism, be it a Deity or something else .. push me in the direction to “be fruitful and multiply” .. to populate the Earth as all of my ancestors have done .. with the exception of my Great, Great uncle Carl .. who was mgtow .. and didn;t even know it .. wouldn;t everything I have been exposed to in my early life push me to be traditional, put on the yoke .. instead of quietly turning and walking as far away as I can get

If, everything is Pre-Determined, be it determinism or randomness or religious
this means that some Entity, using some Force .. be it random or determined or simply a God .. but not my own present moment consciousness
.. “will decide” or has “already decided” which high-tech Sex Doll with AI
that I will be ordering and eventually possess
here’s my answer ..

I am responsible for my own decisions .. and I am conciously making that choice .. I am not downstream of a pre-determined thought, decision or outcome ..
the “making of red blood cells” test is where the guy lost me, lost my attention during his video .. my major was/is Genetics

The next choice I make is based upon my own electro chemical nervous system, genetics, past experiences, nature and nurture .. amount of study .. and my overall mood on that very day. It may be influenced by experiences, probably is .. but I make the choice in real time and am not the victim of my past or outside forces.

for example .. if I decide to spend the rest of my life pursuing a virtual existence .. i.e. striving in every way to avoid contemporary human interaction when an alternative tech or artificial choice is available .. that has to be a conscious decision as nothing in history, religion or even the teachings of the Prophets would have that information available in “their” lifetime or writings.

They don’t know Bots, the Prophets have no experience with Holograms, Artificial Intelligence or the like .. to even hint that some external being or mystical force, be it religious or secular is predetermining my actions is essentially saying the very same thing as the answer that is given when one asks .. how can God allow suffering and disease and War and famine and gnashing of teeth.

How would a loving and caring entity even have allowed such things to exist ..
the pat answer that is usually always given is

they say .. “Sin has caused these things .. and if not sin, then just accept that these are things you should not understand .. accept that there is a purpose and meaning for these things that are above your ability to comprehend.”

… coming from a religious family, having heard it all from close relatives who Preach acceptance rather than questioning and discovery ..
I ask them .. if religion is pre-determining my actions, if we are all pre determined .. how can I have any free will? .. how can I decide to be good or bad as far as societal expectations, eat sugar until my teeth rot or go my own way as an alternative to contemporary slavery in a relationship. They once again say that it is Original Sin that gives us these choices .. even though “those choices” might also “still be” pre-determined .. depending upon your religious slant or which Deity you follow. Go figure.

I still believe that I have full ability to consciously make my own choices. I won’t use any excuses or philosophical traps or “if, thens” to change my mind.

… xclnt and interesting

.. the ultimate solution in my own mind .. sell everything .. buy a used sailboat .. travel to Caribbean .. sit back with my feet up and have a cold beer .. as I contemplate my existence whilst enjoying a glorious Bimini Sunset.

Cheers

[Gravel PitParticipant]

hmskl’d wrote:

I am responsible for my own decisions

“I am responsible accountable for my own decisions” What is the implication there, the difference between responsibility and accountability?

hmskl’d wrote:

How would a loving and caring entity even have allowed (immorality) to exist ..
the pat answer that is usually always given is

they say .. “Sin has caused these things .. and if not sin, then just accept that these are ….. above your ability to comprehend.”

Ah yes, the ol’ “God is mysterious” excuse….

As Sam so eloquently said in a speech once, (paraphrased) “5 million children under the age of 5 die every year. That death toll is similar to the Asian tsunami we saw in 2004, killing 250,000 people (children only) every two weeks, for a whole year, every year.” [Indeed, well over 5 million children under 5 died in 2017] he continues… “Consider these kid’s parents who are praying right now that their child will be spared. And that prayer will not be answered. Okay. Any deity who would visit that kind of needless suffering on children either can do nothing to help them, or doesn’t care to. He is therefore impotent or evil (or doesn’t exist).

MIND YOU. That line of argument is merely pointing out the immorality of Gaud, to show how unjust ‘he’ is. There are better arguments against his existence. Im not agnostic. I believe, no I know, and can argue for, direct evidence that gaud doesnt exist.

Anyway, it doesnt matter. You have faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit so that is fine. Im not here to challenge that. The thread is about Freewill lol.

The video is merely a distraction and celebration of Harris’ talking points on the matter. It’s not meant to change anyone’s mind, only to reaffirm for us that already know. Read the book if you want a better grasp. Its short and east to read, and very affordable. https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAIBil1EXIM&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKT-DR-na-us-1000189-Med-hasem-bk-Evergreen-Nov1417-PLA-audiobookspla*AQAAAIBil1EXIM&gclid=CjwKCAiA5qTfBRAoEiwAwQy-6Wu3z56ZTv78QYtjI1XD_gag8S0dlcGN_XkIwWS7tg-4kHvoM13acBoCMKMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

hmskl’d wrote:

.. sell everything .. buy a used sailboat .. travel to Caribbean .. sit back with my feet up and have a cold beer .. as I contemplate my existence whilst enjoying a glorious Bimini Sunset.

I support you in that leisure. Go for it. Minus the beer maybe unless you can handle.

Enjoy your experience in life. You only get one life.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Our language even gives away the fact of our non-freewill experience.

Consider words like:

try, discipline, learn, failed to control, adapted,

occurred to me, I was compelled to…

LOL, our own language, subconsciously tailored through millenniums, the actual languages we think in… reveal our own automated status.

Why would we have words like TRY or TRIED …? In a freewill universe, we’d just DO IT. There would be no, “well I was considering and then I gave it a shot.” NO, you would just be it. And we strive for “discipline”… why? If we had Freewill, there would be no striving for that standard of discipline, we’d simply lock on to the “desired” behavior we want to be.

The expression, “occured”…. as in, “it occurred” to me that I should “try” to eat more healthy. Where did it come from? I didn’t choose for the thought to eat more healthy, to occur to me. I didn’t choose for the thought to occur. It just does, without my permission or naive beliefs about control.

I was “compelled” to write this thread. Why? It just happened, I observed my self doing it. In fact, My entire day, everyday, is similar to being in a passenger seat, observing what Ill do or say next…. I just go through life observing what Ill do next. Im an organic robot.

Freewill has no Objective or Subjective basis, period.

Objectively: we live in a Causal universe of cause and effect. F=ma. governed by iron clad physical laws. Only what can happen will happen, an ever advancing avalanche and dominoe drop of energy and matter, unfolding spacetime itself and pulling the strings of every event from the orgins of asteroid belts to the printed pages of books in a library. all of it was a one-off that could not have gone down any other way. No one “chose” (not even a god) how it was going to unfold, it just does… I suppose if you had a big enough quantum computer, you could enter in a billion variables and perhaps predict one event in the future.. but the margin of error would be immense because the variables are too great.

Its important to remember that quantum level events that are seemingly random and statistical, grant you no more Freewill either. They do not add up to YOU being able to make your own choices.

Subjectively: The brain makes the decisions before the conscious part of “you” does. Demonstrated over and over in lab, in surgery, in fMRI and more…. the person’s brain “chooses” not the person. The part of you, that you think is in control, is an illusion. Simple meditation reveals this. Monks knew this 3000 years ago or more.

We no more author our thoughts and actions, anymore than we author our genes or place of birth.

The whole thing is bunk.

Why does it matter? Because Shame, Guilt, Hate and especially the institutions that barricade moral progress, depend exclusively on this erroneous conclusion that we have freewill. We dont. We could start teaching this. We could be so much more as a species. Yet we do nothing. We invent Pokemon movies for teen girls to gorge on. We sing choir at church, nodding along like any of it makes sense. We pray as if prayer was effective at all. We feel hatred for people who literally could not help themselves for their faults. We shame ourselves for our own shortcomings like substance abuse when we literally could not help ourselves. None of it makes any sense and it’s held up by the delusion and lie that is Freewill.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

And no one can broach the lie because Christians need it for their delusional world view to make sense…. same with Jews and Muslimes too. The absence of freewill proves the doctrines of monotheism wrong… You can’t fault creatures for “sin” when they have no freewill, period.

Not that the whole anthropomorphic delusion of God wasn’t obvious bulls~~~…. the absence of freewill collapses the entire dogma and infrastructure.

Pantheism and Agnosticism are also retarded. Taoism is crazy and Buddhism is irresponsible. And Hinduism, Scientology and all the rest are straight up stupid too. LOL

[hmskl’dParticipant 6406]

Yes, exactly ..
and for a very recent example that just crossed my mind .. as I know I make my own choices, in “real time” with the absolute ability to buy or not to buy

so ultimately basic .. a decision to purchase what might be considered a tech toy
something that actually happened, several days ago ..

I am very frugal .. typically spend very little if anything on entertainment .. but decided before winter sets in to expand my interests and
walk into a store and buy myself a PS4 Gaming Console … “my first console .. no previous experience to draw upon” none
and walk towards the check-out looking over the game selection

ultimately choosing to buy “DETROIT become human” and “Red Dead Redemption 2”

based solely on the fact that I like the thought of an Android Interactive Game in the first .. as it states on the package
as well as the fact that there is a hidden Ghost Train somewhere to be found in the second .. as I read in the Literature

.. is there anything in my random thoughts, determinism or any other past or cumulative life influencing factor that would make my free will redundant? .. I made this choice “on the spot” and I could have easily decided otherwise .. I might have bought only one game .. but I decided to get both since the price was right .. was frugality in my decision making determined? no, I remember thinking I’d likely get these items even if they weren’t on sale .. thinking that I wanted them now and didn’t want to wait for them if ordered online .. too many variables here to say that they were pre determined .. desire, convenience, availability “now” and the bonus of being five dollars off regular price .. I made this choice in real time .. I could have done otherwise and walked away with one or none ..

anything making the determining decision .. other than my own “free will” and current thought processes .. as I stand and decide to pull the purchase trigger in my brain .. decide that I should buy these two games?
which I did .. based on my own free will.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

hmskl’d wrote:

anything making the determining decision .. other than my own “free will” and current thought processes .. as I stand and decide to pull the purchase trigger in my brain .. decide that I should buy these two games?
which I did .. based on my own free will.

First, let me say congratulations. Enjoy the console and Red Dead Redemption 2. I have not pulled the triggered on Xbox One or PS4 but recently have felt compelled to, precisely because of Red Red 2 coming out! How funny. I hope you enjoy the game. The first one was great. I actually prefer 1st person shooter and Racing games but Red Dead was pretty clever and worth completing the story mode. I dont understand the fascination with most RPGs .. basically games like FallOut and every Grand Theft Auto ever made… LOL. I liked Grand Theft Auto VIce City because it was still very Arcadish and the cheats were fun. It was just small enough of a map too, like a playground. …..I digress….

So your opinion is that, when it came down to the wire… despite a trail of influences and variables placing the decision before you, YOU are the one who ultimately came down on the side of the fence of BUYING the console and games. Yes? Of course, I did not read you wrong… “you chose”

The problem here is that if we had had a super-remote fMRI ghost machine attached to your brain and giving us data during your shopping experience… we cold have seen the signals several seconds in advance, even minutes possibly, leading up to you “deciding” to make the purchase. This is proven conclusively and the gap has not been collapsed with further data. The truth is, your brain made the decision to purchase well before you consciously decided you were going to. You ‘feel’ like you originated and finalized the decision, however; objectively you did not.

The issue is, we FEEL like we have a strong subjective sense of authoring our actions. This sense is an illusion. As Sam always says, if you pay attention to your subjective experience, you will not fail to notice this. (In relation to buying Red Dead Redemption 2) Its not about seeing the $5 off sign or being inclined to the Western theme after maybe watching a Clint Eastwood flick the night before, yet those do play a small part in the justifications and millions of variables our brains are computing. But the conscious part of the brain, the part YOU inhabit, is little more than a waiting room where you twiddle your thumbs and amuse yourself at the magazines on the coffee table UNTIL bang, impulsive decision nurse opens the door and calls you name…

I hate to pick hairs, because it may seem like Im arguing. I ‘get’ your position and respect it. It may seem as if both our opinions on this are 6 one way, half a dozen the other… why does it matter, right?

Recognizing the absence of freewill won’t get you sober and it doesn’t change much. You still need to acquire knowledge in life and chase after your well-being. Its not an invitation to suddenly lay in bed all day, just try it, you will “be compelled” to get up and walk around, just like any automated animal chasing its own tail. Realizing the absence of freewill is also not a Get Out of Jail card for murderers. The safety and well-being of citizens is still paramount. Certain sick-minded people (whether its their fault or not, whether they’re responsible for their crimes or not) can’t be allowed to roam our streets. They’re made accountable, as are we all.

But why does it matter. It matters cause TRUTH about our objective experience matters. We can’t afford to lie to ourselves about whats happening. This simple knowledge, when applied to something like the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous can avail to atheists and non-believing secularists, what was once only attainable by goofy religious folks.

The Serenity Prayer: God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cant change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference.

The prayer, has striking parallels with philosophy as defined by Biological Determinism. We don’t control. We don’t run the show. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Insanity is trying to have freewill. Let go. Courage is a word much like “trying.” Courage to try and change the things I can. (The proper use of the will as the BB reads).

So the Calvinists and Oxford types were still Christians despite their pre-destination musings. They still believed God gave you just enough WILL to get yourself in and out of trouble LOL. Its true.

But my understanding is, I try to remember, I dont run the show. I still pick out my favorite Oatmel flavors and I choose my favorite T-shirts…. but I also accept the fact that those preferences come from a place I did not choose, neither the influences or final decision were solely “MY” decision. I was just nearest to the driver’s seat when the turn went down so I took credit.

[iMickey503Participant 12465]

Ah the Old argument of free will.

I spoke about this years ago in Highschool when I came to the argument that a person could be estimated where they would end up in life with mathematical equation.

If you take variables of that person, and what a human does, you can plot out what is going to happen to that person and some or many of the choices that person is going to make.

This would be a goldmine if this formula could be used to predict financial markets. A person with this kind of knowledge could almost control the world if they could master and compute a formula like this.

But there is just one problem. The Theory of how the world works is based on it being observed. If that is true, then there is some truth to this inevitable outcome of life for at least Corporeal beings.

Now taking that with the theory that our life is a simulation, based on rules that can not be broken or outcome of any said event changed; then one has to ask himself what is the overall purpose of this simulation?

We have some hard facts of our own human existence that we need Food, water and shelter to at least survive as a biological component of this simulation.

So with that, I guess the best thing to do is say thanks, and forget about the concept of the philosophy of free will since you can not control the outcome and just enjoy the ride since whatever you do in your life is already been done.

See if the outcome is already predetermined of your own life, this means that your life has already happened before. Or has been witnessed before. It would explain some things.

OR.. It’s just a great way to explain your own Failures in life by putting blame on the outcome on some other factor. Not yourself.

Now WHO else thinks like that by default.. Hmmmm.

This is where those Intelligent design people get their ideas. They seem to think that the world is engineered. It’s quite possible.

There is just one problem.

Every system has a weakness. You can full proof all you want, but inevitably, something will go wrong. Was that planed as well?

You are all alone. If you have been falsely accused of RAPE, DV, PLEASE let all men know about the people who did this. http://register-her.net/web/guest/home

[Anonymous 1]

I remember Nikola Tesla said something about this as well.

Our Nervous System being nothing more than an Antenna that picks up various forms of Electric and Magnetic fields. There is no shielding from the Environment in our system. We pick up all the waves filtering down to the Earth.

Like we are Remote Controlled. He talks about this in his Autobiography “My Inventions.” We are Automatons utterly manipulated by our environment.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

iMickey503 wrote:

since you can not control the outcome… just enjoy the ride since whatever you do in your life is already [pre-determined]

That is definitely the most common response you get when you point out the error of freewill. And it’s to be expected.

I hardly bring it up anymore because ground is not gained in trying to reason with them. And I always regret if they are stirred to frustration or anger. Then the whole point was lost totally, and where I wanted to teach someone something, I instead disturbed them.

But I feel like I at least got their gears turning and that is useful. They are now thinking philosophically and that is a win.

I think my previous comments may address the “screw it all, why not enjoy the ride if I don’t choose anything, may as well do nothing and not care about anything” type response.

Gravel Pit wrote:

You still need to acquire knowledge in life and chase after your well-being (isn’t that what we were doing anyway? so why
stop now). Its not an invitation to suddenly lay in bed all day, just try it, you will “be compelled” to get up and walk around, just like any automated animal chasing its own tail. (You wont be able to resist the urge to carry on as you’ve always done). Realizing the absence of freewill is also not a Get-Out-of-Jail-free card for murderers. The safety and well-being of citizens is still paramount. Certain sick-minded people (whether its their fault or not, whether they’re responsible for their crimes or not) can’t be allowed to roam our streets. They’re made accountable, as are we all.

Spacetime is a closed dimension so yes, everything has already happened, that will happen, and it wont happen any other way. However, its still entirely new to us with each passing moment. And we will carry on, being presented our experience each moment… and we will experience it as beings inside of this dimension…beings which are made entirely of the same energy and matter that is subject to the physical laws of this dimension. Where every action causes an equal and opposite reaction, where obscure quantum events play out unimpeded and regardless of our notions of ‘freewill’

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

Most cannot find true purpose in their own life. Those people have their choices limited. They choose from the choices provided and complain about the outcome. Then if they are smart enough they make a different choice and a different choice until they finally realize how limited in choice they are and how futile it is to participate.

Not until society is angry at you for your non-participation do you begin to understand how limited you are.

Then you learn, why they hate, for you to stand on the sidelines and watch the game.

Society hates anyone who is perceived as someone unwilling to “DO YOUR FAIR SHARE”

I made a promise and gave my word to my father to do his will. (NOT MINE)

free will exist but using it is almost insanity.
Your outcome will be so similar no matter the choice you make.
WHY? because of the choices provided being so limited to begin with.

Its not until you start creating choices not on societies list, that you get different outcomes.

You have two binary choices

1. Do good or do evil (pick only one)
2. Believe or do not believe (pick only one)

Once you correctly make these two choices the lord will not limit your choices after that.
NOTE. You must choose only one lord to guide you in your decisions.

If you choose not to believe, then the Government becomes your lord by default and will limit your choices.

If you believe then you are allowed to choose your own God in a nation with freedom of religion.

I chose the heavenly spirit of my earthly father.
His will is what I am enslaved to.
This leaves me with no free will,
but with the most freedom to create new choices.

AGAIN free will can drive you insane. Be careful using it.
I cannot deny its existence, because my father has it in abundance.

He creates choices outside of societies limitations for me everyday.HOW?

He can only be alive in his own kingdom. I am JURISDICTIONALLY BLESSED!

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jurisdictionally%20blessed

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=special%20appearance

Seek ye first his kingdom and all this will be added unto you.

IP B,L&R ITNOT FSAHS

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

God gives you free will, but wants you to give it back to him. If you don’t the government becomes your God!!

Don’t over-think this statement “there is but one god” (each) we all get one and only one.

CHOOSE or LOSE!

L&R

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[harpo-my-“SON”Participant 2410]

I love everyone regardless of what they believe.
I give this suggestion to hardcore atheists. Lie to the government and tell em Jesus connected you to the flying spaghetti monster. Tell em you worship pistachio nuts, mother earth, Buda, matters not who you choose.
Just choose anyone or anything.

Not choosing is just existing trapped within the government regulation of every aspect of your life.

Rights are endowed by a creator was self evident 242 years ago when independence was declared.
Why do people not believe something that needed no further proof back then?
That is what self evident means. “No further proof needed”.

Only a fool argues on the opposite side of self evident truth.

Only the Wicked are scared of self evident truth.

L&R to all.

I was bound to be misunderstood, and I laugh at those who misunderstand me. Kind mockery at the well intentioned, but unfettered cruelty towards those would be prison guards of my creative possibilities. This so as to learn as much from misunderstanding as from understanding. Taking pleasure in worthy opponents and making language fluid and flowing like a river yet pointed and precise as a dagger. Contradicts the socialistic purpose of language and makes for a wonderful linguistic dance, A verbal martial art with constant parries that hone the weapon that is the two edged sword of my mouth.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

It’s all good Harpo-MY-SON….. we love you too sir. Arguing over trivial philosophical stuff is amusing but it should stop at the keyboard. We’re all guys here and respect eachother. Not worth hurting anyones feelings over.

God bless ya man, hope you’re staying warm tonight!

[Author]

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