Free Will As Determinism

[MonkParticipant 16978]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Responsibility and Accountability are two different things.

Being a monster presupposes that there is something ‘wrong’. How is the standard of wrongness to be set if everyone is a machine set on a predetermined course?

[Gravel PitParticipant]

I think the confusion on Determinism is not only a religious one (as Christians depend on freewill to make sense of their dogma) but they don’t understand what Causality is…. a ONE WAY STREET of energy and matter which encompasses EVERYTHING, especially and including YOU.

You do not stand outside of causality. You can’t ‘choose’ what will occur. What occurs is dictating everything, including you. YOU aren’t even what you think you are, you’re just a puppet watching his own strings, watching yourself move about your day.

And the real kicker is that we’re experiencing what we perceive as time in a steady direction. Yet time is also illusory. Only Spacetime is what exists which means everything is already the future and the past. We’re moving through our lives totally ignorant of the counter intuitive truth of the matter.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Monk wrote:

How is the standard of wrongness to be set if everyone is a machine set on a predetermined course?

These are not arguments against the truth that there is no freewill. They are MORAL arguments aside from the fact.

You’re views about morality and responsibility are also skewed… reliant on modes of thinking that aren’t backed by solid reasoning.

We have civil modern society and morality in spite of the madness of religious doctrine, not because of it.

read The Moral Landscape. read the book…

we dont need god to establish morality…. and in any event, GOD is the most immoral of everyone… if he existed that is… he doesnt exist

[Gravel PitParticipant]

anyway, Im going home for the night. Its been a bad day.

Sorry to post and run. I wrote all this in the morning but it kept getting “500 error” and wouldn’t post…

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Monk wrote:

If there is no free will, then there can be no responsibility, and therefore no crime.

A common fallacy on this subject.
Responsibility and Accountability are two different things.
A criminal is still accountable for his misdeeds and the vicious character of his mind. For that, we lock him up and keep him away from the public. He is held accountable. Though we do not blame him or hold him responsible for the variables that made him the monster that he is. All the same, in the interest of the public’s well being, we lock up criminals and hold people ACCOUNTABLE.
Just because you dont like a result of illuminating FreeNIL, doesnt mean it isnt true. And in this case, its not an argument because the knowledge of freenil doesn’t excuse crime or misbeahvior. It doesn’t make your life any less important.
You still need to acquire skills and seek the happiness that you seek

How can a person be required to accountable or responsible if there is no choice and it is predetermined?

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

I think the confusion on Determinism is not only a religious one (as Christians depend on freewill to make sense of their dogma) but they don’t understand what Causality is…. a ONE WAY STREET of energy and matter which encompasses EVERYTHING, especially and including YOU.
You do not stand outside of causality. You can’t ‘choose’ what will occur. What occurs is dictating everything, including you. YOU aren’t even what you think you are, you’re just a puppet watching his own strings, watching yourself move about your day.
And the real kicker is that we’re experiencing what we perceive as time in a steady direction. Yet time is also illusory. Only Spacetime is what exists which means everything is already the future and the past. We’re moving through our lives totally ignorant of the counter intuitive truth of the matter.

If everything is caused, the “choice” is also caused where choice further exists if further cause/effect structures exist from it.

All choice in these respects is inseparable from cause where what we understand of reality as cause and effect is strictly an extension of a unified whole where all phenomena extend from a unified being.

1. All phenomena exist through directed movement. What moves is what exists.

2. These directed movements replicate to form the boundaries of being. For example a thought exists as a boundary composed of and composing other thoughts. Thinking about a concept, such as “the alphabet”, is composed of other concepts such as the letter or a word. The letter or word follows this same nature.

The same applies to empirical phenonemon. What makes the concept of “the alphabet as moving” is its continual replication to other facets of reality. The letter is an extension of the alphabet, the letter is extensions of a symbol, which is an extension of a sound, etc.

The replication of one phenomenon, into another as a connection of that phenomenon observes a connectivity. One phenomena is a center point between other phenomena.

“A” is directed, as a symbol, to a sound. As directed to a sound, the sound in turn is mediated through a symbol. “A” directs itself to the vocalization of sound in reading it aloud, in writing down vocalization “A” as a sound is directed towards a symbol of “A”.

“A” as a symbol and “A” as a sound repeat eachother through the observer(s). A form of reptition occurs.

3. Movement is an observation of multiple parts where one part results in another part through connection or seperation. This reptition of certain phenomena exists as a linear movement through time where this same reptition observes a form of cycling where certain phenomena, such as the symbol “A” in the above example, are constantly repeated through a self maintained cycling.

All phenomena, occurring through a linear progression in time as well as a cycling through reptition, exist as directed movement. Even a simple particle moving from point A to point B is a reptition of a time space locality in a given length of space and exists as a phenomena of linear time.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

I think the confusion on Determinism is not only a religious one (as Christians depend on freewill to make sense of their dogma) but they don’t understand what Causality is…. a ONE WAY STREET of energy and matter which encompasses EVERYTHING, especially and including YOU.
You do not stand outside of causality. You can’t ‘choose’ what will occur. What occurs is dictating everything, including you. YOU aren’t even what you think you are, you’re just a puppet watching his own strings, watching yourself move about your day.
And the real kicker is that we’re experiencing what we perceive as time in a steady direction. Yet time is also illusory. Only Spacetime is what exists which means everything is already the future and the past. We’re moving through our lives totally ignorant of the counter intuitive truth of the matter.

Causality is a structure.

1. A cause leads to effect, which in itself is a cause for further effect.

2. All cause exists through an effect where cause is ever present and effect is an approximation of one cause as multiple cause (where the original cause is observe approximately through another cause as multiple causes)

3. Cause as ever present observes all phenomenon as a point of origin stemming from one point of origin as an approximation of the one origin.

Determinism as the connection of one cause to another is an observation of structure where one movement is directed to another and maintains a connection. Cause is structure, where free will not only necessitates a connection to cause (as the concept of free will is caused in a deterministic argument) but as connected all cause is free will necessitating all reality as an approximation of a self referencing consciousness.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Monk wrote:

How is the standard of wrongness to be set if everyone is a machine set on a predetermined course?

These are not arguments against the truth that there is no freewill. They are MORAL arguments aside from the fact.
You’re views about morality and responsibility are also skewed… reliant on modes of thinking that aren’t backed by solid reasoning.
We have civil modern society and morality in spite of the madness of religious doctrine, not because of it.
read The Moral Landscape. read the book…
we dont need god to establish morality…. and in any event, GOD is the most immoral of everyone… if he existed that is… he doesnt exist

His views cannot be skewed, according to your argument, as he has no choice in the matter according your perspective…they are “caused”.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

John Doe wrote:

Cause is structure, where free will not only necessitates a connection to cause (as the concept of free will is caused in a deterministic argument) but as connected all cause is free will necessitating all reality as an approximation of a self referencing consciousness.

If god wanted your ass to understand, he would have miracled your ass to understand.

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

John Doe wrote:

Cause is structure, where free will not only necessitates a connection to cause (as the concept of free will is caused in a deterministic argument) but as connected all cause is free will necessitating all reality as an approximation of a self referencing consciousness.

If god wanted your ass to understand, he would have miracled your ass to understand.
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So if you understand the statement you just made, does God exist?

[MonkParticipant 16978]

Does God have free will? If yes, can God – having created all these machine-beings – then be held ‘responsible’ for their actions?

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Monk wrote:

Does God have free will? If yes, can God – having created all these machine-beings – then be held ‘responsible’ for their actions?

If God gave them free will, where this free will effectively is an extension of God (as free will replicating free will), then any choice they make is subject to its own form of judgement which forms the individual.

The act of free will is an act of creation, with this creation existing as its own judgement on the creator.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Monk wrote:

Does God have free will?

a. there is no god (it’s an anthropomorphic delusion, a mirror of vanity, a face we see in a cloud)…
b. freewill doesn’t exist, at all.. it’s untenable by physical law in this universe. So the answer is no… nothing in this universe has freewill and no agent or force in this universe acts by accord of it’s own volition. So even if ‘gaud’ exists in ‘metaphyscial woo woo land outside of Causality, and he has true freewill there, he can’t use it here.)

Monk wrote:

can God – having created all these machine-beings – then be held ‘responsible’ for their actions?

if god can be held accountable for his actions, he isnt god.

You see how the ENTIRE dogma of Christianity and Judaism resides on the crumbled foundation of a delusion (freewill) … not that the entire concept wasn’t a ridiculous anthropromorphic and infantile yearning, a mark of our vanity… but when you show that freewill is literally impossible on multiple fronts: subjectively, objectively, scientifically…. the whole thing just falls to pieces.

So far, the only intelligible counter-arguments are quips about the moral culpability of humans and sky-daddy… MORALS! having nothing to do at all with whether an agent in this universe can actually act of it’s own “freewill” … a total departure from the debate. Does anyone have agency in this universe? The answer is NO

John’s argument is completely incoherent… basically he is saying that freewill exists because we’re all magic extensions of Gausality and we make it so… therefor yadda yadda-paraphrasing some physics sounding bologna–yadda yadda and BANG, you have freewill.. — essentially something you’d hear in Monty Python!

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Quick Apology & Revelation about the Topic you both might find useful.

1. Im breaking alot of my own rules. Gargamel hated me I think because I was very callous with people. John Doe, Im sorry. I disagree vehemently with near everything you write and then I get on the keyboard and get carried away and go beyond arguing, I may actually hurt someones feelings. That makes anything I have to say useless. I need to work on my tact.

In connection with my lack of tact. This topic about freenil is out of bounds for me. No one I talk to ever understands this stuff, not even agnostics and Ive tried in real life, at Atheist and Agnostic meet ups to explain this stuff. No one understands and no one cares… So its pretty unfair to expect some Christians online to give it pause…

Its really not worth discussing because y’alls faith will not be changed. And besides, I actually applaud the Christian lifestyle. I would rather live NeoCon or TradCon than like the Churchian Hypocrite apostates… or worse, the total infidel freaks..

You see, I actually believe in morals. I just didnt get there through faith. My morals are grounded in a firm conviction that Objective Morality is still yet to be developed. My morality is sort of like Star Trek morality to be funny… the well-being of sentient life forms is no less important whether you believe in the afterlife or not…

Anyway. My main point is that my beliefs surrounding Atheism and Freenil are so obscure and hard to relay… that they have to be taken on faith anyway, nearly indistinguishable from what yall believe anyway… we arrive at damn near the same destination but we get there different way. So there is not reason for me to cause trouble here.

Both of yall have a nice evening.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

To MONK….

There is a sect of Christianity that believes in pre-destination and could possibly be a faith that accepts freenil.

CALVINISM

They have some very weird ideas but basically, they accept God’s Will as already sealed…

If I were EVER to convert back to some form of theism… it would likely be Calvinism or some branch of it

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Quick Apology & Revelation about the Topic you both might find useful.
1. Im breaking alot of my own rules. Gargamel hated me I think because I was very callous with people. John Doe, Im sorry. I disagree vehemently with near everything you write and then I get on the keyboard and get carried away and go beyond arguing, I may actually hurt someones feelings. That makes anything I have to say useless. I need to work on my tact.
In connection with my lack of tact. This topic about freenil is out of bounds for me. No one I talk to ever understands this stuff, not even agnostics and Ive tried in real life, at Atheist and Agnostic meet ups to explain this stuff. No one understands and no one cares… So its pretty unfair to expect some Christians online to give it pause…
Its really not worth discussing because y’alls faith will not be changed. And besides, I actually applaud the Christian lifestyle. I would rather live NeoCon or TradCon than like the Churchian Hypocrite apostates… or worse, the total infidel freaks..
You see, I actually believe in morals. I just didnt get there through faith. My morals are grounded in a firm conviction that Objective Morality is still yet to be developed. My morality is sort of like Star Trek morality to be funny… the well-being of sentient life forms is no less important whether you believe in the afterlife or not…
Anyway. My main point is that my beliefs surrounding Atheism and Freenil are so obscure and hard to relay… that they have to be taken on faith anyway, nearly indistinguishable from what yall believe anyway… we arrive at damn near the same destination but we get there different way. So there is not reason for me to cause trouble here.
Both of yall have a nice evening.

To be Frank, I have to ask about the nature of the complete “turn around” considering well everything. I know you explained it some already, but honestly I am little skeptical.

But with that being said, no hard feelings.

I forgive you.

Forgive me for whatever cruelty I may have shown you.

[Gravel PitParticipant]

Im bringing in the New Year with ZERO resentment or anger at MEN.

Peace on Earth and GoodWill to Men (well at least the goodwill to men part lol… unless theyre muslimes, f~~~ them.. lol)

It aint worth the back and forth. The reality is that we both lead pretty virtuous lives and live by codes…how we arrived at them, thats up to you bro.

Peace to you and a prosperous 2019!

I wont attack your threads but Id be cautious if I were you, to not post too many of them and hog up the Philosophy forum. People get burned out easy and we’re still not able to get new members yet because KM is going through a NFG phase of his life. Aint too many folks here, maybe a hundred…

[John DoeParticipant 743]

Gravel Pit wrote:

Im bringing in the New Year with ZERO resentment or anger at MEN.
Peace on Earth and GoodWill to Men (well at least the goodwill to men part lol… unless theyre muslimes, f~~~ them.. lol)
It aint worth the back and forth. The reality is that we both lead pretty virtuous lives and live by codes…how we arrived at them, thats up to you bro.
Peace to you and a prosperous 2019!
I wont attack your threads but Id be cautious if I were you, to not post too many of them and hog up the Philosophy forum. People get burned out easy and we’re still not able to get new members yet because KM is going through a NFG phase of his life. Aint too many folks here, maybe a hundred…

Fair enough. Happy New Years.

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