This topic contains 315 replies, has 39 voices, and was last updated by 
IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) 2 years ago.
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It’s unfair, Beer, because it creates a situation where rich people are entitled to the products and services of others without actually contributing anything to the economic system. This is free lunch. Furthermore, because of the fractional reserve banking system, the money that is supposedly “loaned”, isn’t loaned at all, but rather is created from nothing and then added to the money supply, causing inflation. Inflation creates a disadvantage for the middle and lower classes, but has no effect on the upper class. It’s a hidden tax and robs the people of their purchasing power. The banking system is engineered to perpetuate the wealth of the rich, and the poverty of the poor. Sorry, but money for nothing is unfair to everyone. Never mind fair though, because fair doesn’t matter anyway. Things have never been fair, and they never will be, because if they were, then the people who genuinely *are* superior would win by virtue of their creativity and intellect, instead of the use of legislation to create a business advantage for themselves, or a disadvantage for their competitors. Like I said, psychopaths don’t like to lose so they will do anything to destroy their competitors. There’s a reason why wars and industrial espionage occur. There’s a reason for organizations that must hide behind secrecy. There’s a reason why banking information and the money trail is kept confidential. Furthermore, when the banks bust, they are bailed out by printing even more money, adding to inflation, and adding that amount to the “national debt”, which is the supposed justification for taxation to begin with. Never mind that they don’t actually budget *anything* out of the taxes.
…In fact, recently groups of entrepreneurs are banding together to change things in an effort called “Voice and Exit”. You should check it out.”…
Oooo… cheers for the heads up Veni, will do!!
One could argue that in our current system, 99% of the people do all the hard work, while the other 1% f~~~s around, yet they get a higher share of the food and shelter. But that’s by the by since I don’t actually agree with socialism.
http://news.discovery.com/human/life/millionaires-120722.htm
And they’d be quickly shut down for being a moron when 86% of millionaires are self made and the average age of a millionaire is 61. The average millionaire is your grandfather, that worked, lived below his means, and saved/invested.
Speaking of unfair, I worked for a frozen foods packing company once during my youth as a six month stint between more lucrative work. The majority Polish immigrants who worked there were employed as ‘seasonal’ workers so as to exempt them from minimum wage legislation. They worked tirelessly for ten hours a day, six days a week in freezing cold conditions with little or no job security. The Boss, on the other hand, would park his rolls outside his lavish office each afternoon, spend three hours making calls and wise cracking his junior partner before heading off home after a strenuous days work.
So what? I had s~~~ty jobs in the past where I busted my ass for mediocre pay while the owner sat up in his corner office doing whatever he felt like. It was his business, nobody forced me to work for him, if I didn’t like it I could have gone somewhere else. Ultimately I was thankful for the job, and even though I have moved on to a better job that pays more and I don’t have to do as much physical labor, I still stop in and visit the guy on occasion. He paid me to do a job, I showed up and did it, it was that simple.
How would you make that situation “fair?” Do you think that guy should pay someone to do a job, and then go do half of it for them because its hard work and its not fair he’s in his office overseeing things while someone else is doing labor? If you paid someone to build a stone wall in front of your house are you going to go out and build half of it for him, or sit in your house and watch tv while the guy you are paying to build that wall is outside building it, because that’s what you are paying him for.
Not me, I live within my means but sure, I agree, so what do you propose?
Congrats, its liberating to live within your means and actually save. I’m not proposing anything, if someone else wants to dig themselves into debt and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of their lifetime on interest payments on their debt, that is their decision, as long as they are held responsible for it its no skin off my back.
It’s unfair, Beer, because it creates a situation where rich people are entitled to the products and services of others without actually contributing anything to the economic system. This is free lunch.
Except for that an overwhelming majority of millionaires are self made. Obviously they have contributed something to society or that wouldn’t be the case.
Furthermore, because of the fractional reserve banking system, the money that is supposedly “loaned”, isn’t loaned at all, but rather is created from nothing and then added to the money supply, causing inflation. Inflation creates a disadvantage for the middle and lower classes, but has no effect on the upper class. It’s a hidden tax and robs the people of their purchasing power.
Inflation effects all dollars equally. It doesn’t effect the rich any less.
Then again, that’s why you earn interest and invest your money, so inflation doesn’t erode your purchasing power, but you think interest and investments are unfair, so feel free to hide money under your mattress since you don’t want any of that unfair passive income.
What has been hurting the lower/middle class is stagnant wages, but I’d blame that more on globalization and our immigration policies(and lack of enforcement of them) than having what by historical terms has been relatively low inflation over the last decade. Our society has always had inflation and it was never this bad in the past…however wages have generally kept pace with inflation so it wasn’t a huge deal, but that isn’t currently happening.
The banking system is engineered to perpetuate the wealth of the rich, and the poverty of the poor.
Banks can’t force poverty on anyone. They can offer you a loan…but that is a voluntary decision to accept the terms and take it or not. They also pay you money for letting them hold your money…you know…that unfair interest stuff you don’t like.
Sorry, but money for nothing is unfair to everyone.
Nobody is getting money for nothing. If you are getting passive income off dividends, its because you became a partial owner of a company when you purchased a share. If I had a million dollars and a friend had a million dollars and we bought a building and some trucks and started up a trucking business which earned a profit each year, would that be money for nothing? I’d just be a partial owner of a trucking company. If I bought a million dollars worth UPS stock and they paid me dividends, would that be money for nothing? I’m still just a partial owner of a trucking company getting a share of the profits.
Well I shouldn’t say nobody is getting money for nothing…welfare bums get money for nothing all the time, and I suppose some would argue rich get something for nothing due to the way out tax laws are written, even though they aren’t actually getting anything, just arguably not paying their fair share when they pay 15-20% capital gains rate while the working guy pays 30-40% payroll taxes.
Never mind fair though, because fair doesn’t matter anyway. Things have never been fair, and they never will be, because if they were, then the people who genuinely *are* superior would win by virtue of their creativity and intellect, instead of the use of legislation to create a business advantage for themselves, or a disadvantage for their competitors.
Things never will be fair because we all have a different definition of fair. Some people think a government that provides everyone with a basic lifestyle even if they don’t want to work but are capable of it is fair, while others think giving everyone equal opportunity and letting the brightest, the most motivated, and the hardest working rise to the top is fair.
And they’d be quickly shut down for being a moron when 86% of millionaires are self made and the average age of a millionaire is 61. The average millionaire is your grandfather, that worked, lived below his means, and saved/invested.
Hmmm, but I’m not referring to the ‘millionaire’ class. You CAN be a millionaire by simply being thrifty, investing wisely and working hard. Hell, the average price for a flat in central London is now £1.26m according to ‘Foxtons’. I’m talking about the Captains and the Kings, the legislators and plantation owners.
So what? I had s~~~ty jobs in the past where I busted my ass for mediocre pay while the owner sat up in his corner office doing whatever he felt like. It was his business, nobody forced me to work for him, if I didn’t like it I could have gone somewhere else. Ultimately I was thankful for the job, and even though I have moved on to a better job that pays more and I don’t have to do as much physical labor, I still stop in and visit the guy on occasion. He paid me to do a job, I showed up and did it, it was that simple.
But that’s not economic ‘virtue’, that’s just cynical exploitation. You’re suggesting that we substitute the Boss’ signature on the factory’s deed for the daily productivity of all his employees as his net value to society. Yet, without a willing workforce, his actual ‘value’ become zilch. But why would anyone want to slave away the best years of their lives for such a pitiful reward? Because the state will will adjust its control mechanisms accordingly in order to ensure that there is always a surplus of cheap labour.. they’re running on a treadmill.
How would you make that situation “fair?” Do you think that guy should pay someone to do a job, and then go do half of it for them because its hard work and its not fair he’s in his office overseeing things while someone else is doing labor? If you paid someone to build a stone wall in front of your house are you going to go out and build half of it for him, or sit in your house and watch tv while the guy you are paying to build that wall is outside building it, because that’s what you are paying him for.
You’re focusing on the principles of trade, not the cumulative, trickle down effects of a dynamically manipulated economy. As Veni pointed out, artificial inflation ensures that the hoi poloi never have too much disposable income. I don’t know how I’d make the situation ‘fair’, I’m not an economist and I don’t presume to understand the complexities thereof. I refuse to believe, however, that what we have now was engineered to promote ‘aspirational’ thinking.
Congrats, its liberating to live within your means and actually save. I’m not proposing anything, if someone else wants to dig themselves into debt and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of their lifetime on interest payments on their debt, that is their decision, as long as they are held responsible for it its no skin off my back.
Likewise, I agree. I’ve never approved of wanton profligacy or conspicuous excess, especially, on credit. I think the same principle ought to apply to the state too; so long as the taxpayer is picking up the government’s tab, so should it be forced to restrict its spending to its tax pool, not third party creditors like the IMF.
How would you implement a form of economics that facilitated the equitable distribution of resources according to each inhabitants needs, wants and entitlements?
What’s equitable? Half the people do all the work while the other half f~~~s around, yet they all get an equal share of food and shelter?
3. The rich people who receive income just for having money, IE passive incomes like interest, dividends, tax breaks, etc. It’s pretty sad when there are dead people who have higher incomes than living workers. Elvis may be dead, but he makes more money than me, and I’m both a better singer AND a better guitar player.
How is this unfair? People who save their money make interest on it and grow it via investments, people who can’t hold on to their money don’t. Nobody would ever be able to retire if this wasn’t the case. Should we all just put our savings in 0% growth accounts because interest is unfair?
It’s unfair because it creates a situation where rich people are entitled to the products and services of others without actually contributing anything to the economic system. This is free lunch. Furthermore, because of the fractional reserve banking system, the money that is supposedly “loaned”, isn’t loaned at all, but rather is created from nothing and then added to the money supply, causing inflation. Inflation creates a disadvantage for the middle and lower classes, but has no effect on the upper class. It’s a hidden tax and robs the people of their purchasing power. The banking system is engineered to perpetuate the wealth of the rich, and the poverty of the poor. Sorry, but money for nothing is unfair to everyone. Never mind fair though, because fair doesn’t matter anyway. Things have never been fair, and they never will be, because if they were, then the people who genuinely *are* superior would win by virtue of their creativity and intellect, instead of the use of legislation to create a business advantage for themselves, or a disadvantage for their competitors. Like I said, psychopaths don’t like to lose so they will do anything to destroy their competitors. There’s a reason why wars and industrial espionage occur. There’s a reason for organizations that must hide behind secrecy. There’s a reason why banking information and the money trail is kept confidential.
It’s unfair because it creates a situation where rich people are entitled to the products and services of others without actually contributing anything to the economic system. This is free lunch. Furthermore, because of the fractional reserve banking system, the money that is supposedly “loaned”, isn’t loaned at all, but rather is created from nothing and then added to the money supply, causing inflation. Inflation creates a disadvantage for the middle and lower classes, but has no effect on the upper class. It’s a hidden tax and robs the people of their purchasing power. The banking system is engineered to perpetuate the wealth of the rich, and the poverty of the poor. Sorry, but money for nothing is unfair to everyone. Never mind fair though, because fair doesn’t matter anyway. Things have never been fair, and they never will be, because if they were, then the people who genuinely *are* superior would win by virtue of their creativity and intellect, instead of the use of legislation to create a business advantage for themselves, or a disadvantage for their competitors. Like I said, psychopaths don’t like to lose so they will do anything to destroy their competitors. There’s a reason why wars and industrial espionage occur. There’s a reason for organizations that must hide behind secrecy. There’s a reason why banking information and the money trail is kept confidential.
I find your view depressing in the extreme.
Unfortunately, I also know that you are describing the global bankster fiat Ponzi scheme very accurately.
We only dream this bondage. Wake up and let it go. - Vivekananda
Beer, there is no such thing as “self made”. Sorry, but behind even the best and brightest, there is a very long “thank you” list of entire teams of people without which, a single person’s success could not be possible. This list can include the parents, family members, friends, business partners, employees, and it can also simply include predecessors that made innovations that helped boost a person. Self made is a myth. If you did not directly provide someone with a service, or create a product, and you are getting paid, you have not earned the money. That is money for nothing. In the end, profit is really just value created by, and stolen from, the laborer. People who make a profit and then invest the money to receive even more profit, have really just stolen from the workers that created the wealth for them. This is fact. Inflation does effect the rich less, because the poor and middle class run out of money faster. This can be pictured as the difference between a goldfish with a full bowl of water, and a gold fish with only a half inch of water in the bottom. A major strategy of large companies is to starve out fresh competitors by underselling them until they are bankrupt. This was particularly notorious in the early oil days of Rockefeller. Banks DO force poverty on everyone, at least central ones anyway. They do this by the overprinting of money which eventually results in hyperinflation followed by war. Sorry sir, but you have a lot of learning to do. You should get studying immediately because obviously you do not understand how the banking system works.
Read this book, and you will understand. https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin
The point that I’ve been making this entire time is that no one else has the right to compel me into servitude.
No individual compels you into servitude… reality compels you. The reality of your empty belly, naked back and exposed skin. Stop producing and exchanging economic value. Locate yourself in some wilderness, stop buying things and shut out the world. Pay no bills, hold no deeds, carry no licenses, use nothing that must be replenished… you are now free… and unless you intend to beg or steal, you will soon be dead… not because I willed it or the market willed it or the people with money willed it, but because reality demands it.
By your own definition, you will always be enslaved… or dead. This is reality, call it what you want but fighting reality isn’t freedom, it’s foolishness. If you choose to believe you can live in this world without being a part of society and economics, then I will leave you to your delusion… have fun being a slave.
I, on the other hand, am producing value sufficient to pay my own way through life and that makes me not a slave but a king. The day I can no longer provide for myself, I expect to be dead. I know my true worth and I take nothing for granted,
If I had a million dollars and a friend had a million dollars and we bought a building and some trucks and started up a trucking business which earned a profit each year, would that be money for nothing? I’d just be a partial owner of a trucking company. If I bought a million dollars worth UPS stock and they paid me dividends, would that be money for nothing? I’m still just a partial owner of a trucking company getting a share of the profits.
Very well put.
You aren’t buying stock and then sitting on your ass getting paid to do nothing, you’re using your stored value to employ someone (a great many someones) to create and run a trucking company for you… and a very successful and far reaching one, at that, which serves the real needs of millions of people around the globe… because you worked your hours, created your value, stored it up and used it to help create that company.
Money for nothing, indeed.
If someone really is getting money for nothing, they are a criminal and should be brought to justice… and that includes the broke-ass panhandler just as much as it does the wealthy war profiteer, insider trader or drug dealer. If any one of you truly believes someone is getting money for nothing, turn your evidence over to the D.A., get their assets seized and have them thrown in jail for f~~~ing with the free market. No? I didn’t think so.
Thank you guys for really digging into the topic without getting emotional
Well, I’ve been likened to a Nazi at least twice in this thread so far, but I just let it go. There’s no point to talking if you can’t keep it civil, right?
As for me, I m just curious to see how you guys intend to stop working for a paycheck and shopping for things you need. Does someone actually have a magic island? Or are you just going to bitch about banks and rich people and money enslaving you with no realistic plan for extracting yourself and ever being truly individual and free?
You guys remind me of the plantation slaves who had their irons removed but who just kept working the fields because it’s all they understood.
Basket currency uses commodities like copper (pre-1981 coins) nickel, silver, and gold.
Sooooo… more or less back to the gold standard. Yes? And who do you think has all the gold, nickel, silver and copper and who is going to determine what x-amount of metal is worth in terms of rice and beans and bullets and where do you think these exchanges will take place and who do you think will do the accounting of it all?
Or is the answer really just “magic”?
The point that I’ve been making this entire time is that no one else has the right to compel me into servitude.
No individual compels you into servitude… reality compels you. The reality of your empty belly, naked back and exposed skin. Stop producing and exchanging economic value. Locate yourself in some wilderness, stop buying things and shut out the world. Pay no bills, hold no deeds, carry no licenses, use nothing that must be replenished… you are now free… and unless you intend to beg or steal, you will soon be dead… not because I willed it or the market willed it or the people with money willed it, but because reality demands it.
By your own definition, you will always be enslaved… or dead. This is reality, call it what you want but fighting reality isn’t freedom, it’s foolishness. If you choose to believe you can live in this world without being a part of society and economics, then I will leave you to your delusion… have fun being a slave.
I, on the other hand, am producing value sufficient to pay my own way through life and that makes me not a slave but a king. The day I can no longer provide for myself, I expect to be dead. I know my true worth and I take nothing for granted,
That’s correct. No “individual” compels me into servitude. The social structure (collective) does, because if I take your suggestion, which many people are attempting already, I will be confronted by law enforcement and fined, thrown in jail, or both. Clearly you weren’t paying attention when I said that an artificial cost has been added to subsistence, and that people are required by law to pay taxes on even the land that they own. That is something you should already know anyway, if you had been paying any attention to the existing legislation. That’s not freedom. I am not refusing to participate in the economic system. If that were the plan, I would not be learning to code. I’m simply pointing out that the system binds us by using coercion, and that none of us decided on those laws. It was decided for us by rulers. I’m not just a sitting around whiny baby like you make me to be. Furthermore, I may have likened you to a Nazi twice Doc, but you likened me to a loser and essentially told me that you hope that my family will die. That’s not civil. I have no respect for you, and what you said WAS exactly the same message that was being put out by Nazi’s. I even provided a video as proof. You are a collectivist.
people who produce less than they consume while loudly demanding entitlements and special treatment in order to head off criticism and much deserved ejection from society. Your type want to get rid of work and money because your inability to do the former and earn the latter identifies you for what you are… but it’s you we need to get rid of.
You live in a K type reality and the sooner you and your litter of pink-eyed siblings die off, the better off those of us who are willing to invest in producing real value for ourselves will be.
“Under Socialism, you would not be allowed to be poor. You would be forcibly fed, clothed, lodged, taught, and employed whether you liked it or not. If it were discovered that you had not character and industry enough to be worth all this trouble, you might possibly be executed in a kindly manner; but whilst you were permitted to live, you would have to live well.” -George Bernard Shaw.
there is no such thing as “self made”. Sorry, but behind even the best and brightest, there is a very long “thank you” list of entire teams of people without which, a single person’s success could not be possible.
This is my favorite. So a wealthy person comes to wealth by standing on the backs of everyone else in society from their parents to their teachers to the workers and the infrastructure that made their accumulation of wealth possible (I hear the voice of President Obama telling CEOs ‘You didn’t build that!’) while you can be wholly independent,divorced from the system, produce nothing of value for anyone and create everything you need for your own survival out of, what, thin air?
But according to you, you are participating in the economy and your family is too, I assume, though how you came to the conclusion that I told you all you should die is beyond me… I believe I said your lives have no intrinsic value to anyone but yourselves and if you can’t pay your own way or coerce someone into paying it for you, you WILL die. No prescription there, just a description of what I see to be the reality of the situation,
Now it’s fine that you have no respect for me and you can read whatever you like into my comments and call me whatever you want, that’s fine, but you can’t deny that in order to live, you must produce something of value and trade it for something else of value. My assertion is that this is what defines an individualist, and that the opposit is to expect and demand that someone else pay your way, which is collectivist… the only real point I’ve been after from the start.
So your beef seems to be about having to pay tax and interest and possibly something about inflation as well. Tough s~~~, taxes are the cover charge for being here, you don’t want to pay the cover, too bad. Good luck finding a society to sustain yourself in where there are no taxes. Interest only applies when you borrow money so don’t borrow money and you’re fine there. Inflation, as I may have mentioned before, is a deeper issue and probably would not be changed at all by doing away with markets and money, which is what I believe you were calling for from the start.
So what was your point again, aside from waaah, international banking conspiracy BAD! Actually, never mind, I don’t think we’re going to have a real discussion here as you already told me you have no respect for me and now I don’t have to worry about being decent or caring what you have to say any more. You may feel free to believe that I am a Nazi and think you and your family are economically useless losers that should die, if believing that’s what I’ve been trying to say makes you happy and lets you continue to behave the way you have been up to now.
Looks like we’re done here,
“You live in a K type reality and the sooner you and your litter of pink-eyed siblings die off, the better off those of us who are willing to invest in producing real value for ourselves will be.”
Aha, this is where you thought I said you and your family should die. Note that before that part, I said “people who believe…” and then “your type…” I was referring to the people who believe they are entitled to live for free. If that’s not your belief, then you’re not in that class and “you and your pink-eyed siblings” does not refer to you,
It is unwise, when someone shouts “Hey asshole!” into a crowded room, to stand up and say “You talking to me?” because from that point forward, they clearly are,
And for the record, “litter of pink-eyed siblings” is a reference to white mice which are an r-type species, depending on offspring quantity to blanket an ecosystem in order to secure resources and reproductive success rather than, say, most higher order mammals that are K-type, depending on investing a small number of offspring with survival skills and experiences so that they can effectively compete for resources. I didn’t mean your brothers and sisters specifically,
I’m sorry if you took it personally…. unless you’re a freeloading whining entitled loser collectivist who thinks money is bad because someone else has a lot more of it than they do and who can’t or won’t compete fairly to get what they want but instead expects to be paid, fed, watered, cared for and treated like a princess for just showing up and having intrinsic value. Like most women do.
Money Fiat or otherwise is based on one simple concept. Medium of Exchange. The problems we have now are not related to a well managed Fiat currency. This is about how debt has become a Medium of Exchange.
Banks are now trading securitized debt as a medium of trade. This is what caused the 2008 crash.
Gold or silver is not immune to debasement. Throughout history debasement of silver or gold coins has ALWAYS been a problem. This problem of debasement of mediums of exchange also hopelessly corrupted the Fiat systems. Now debasement has corrupted the debt based systems by debasing the debt with “toxic debt”. Eventually there will be a global system crash and reset. How totalitarian it will be is unknown but does not look good.It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning; it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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