FIAT CURRENCY – HOW HUMANITY HAS BEEN ENSLAVED WITH DEBT

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Bob, you deserve a much more sophisticated name. I admire your intellect, and perspective.

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

Bobbash writes: I do believe that anyone is entirely talentless but I DO believe that ‘the system’ unjustly constrains individuals by forcing them put aside their aspirations for the sake of expediency. You couldn’t be a subsistence farmer even if you wanted to be, you’d eventually be forcefully evicted for not paying your council tax or whatever the US equivalent is.

Where I live, the Rustbelt, typical tax rate in rural areas is 50 mills. Tax valuation is 35% of real value. So let’s take a 20-acre farm where I garden. At ~$5700/acre I’m going to have $5,700 x 20 acres x 0.35 = ~$40K value x 50 mills/K = $2000 annual taxes. I’m skeptical the $2,000 is what’s keeping people from becoming subsistence gardeners; they could sell some of their fruits & vegetables or work part time in the nearest town to pay their taxes. If I carefully chose where to live, this tax burden could be cut in half. About 3/4 of these typical taxes, go to our school district where I live, funding primary & secondary education. Ultimately I’d rather parents have to pay for schooling, but I’m just giving you the numbers for your consideration. So, while I disagree with the taxes I don’t feel it’s keeping people from living this dream.

I think the ‘system’ does constrain aspirations; but I attribute much of the ‘system’ to social conditioning: Most people ‘must’ have a fancy new car, apartment, stereo, cell phone, vacation, wife + kids, etc. Seldom do they make a decision to, say, live with a roomate, drive a 15 year old car, cook every meal at home, etc. Expenses balloon with income for most people. I would argue that a significant number of people’s expense will increase in lockstep with their income.

China has its problems — pollution, corruption, lack of democracy and freedoms, etc — but it’s also had high growth. Chinese economic growth really started to pick up in the late 1970’s when agriculture was decollectivized and then picked up a lot more steam with business privatization in the 80’s and 90’s. A huge contrast to the Great Leap Forward of the late 1950’s.

I see the Mexicans at the Taco Trucks here — also paying cash — which is good — they’re spending money here. Granted, they do a lot of work in the underground economy for cash.

I wasn’t suggesting we have a totally free world economy — only that competition has many beneficial aspects.

In the US, we tried protectionism in the form of Smoot-Hawley. It prolonged the Great Depression in my opinion.

I certainly want to do away with welfare long term, but I don’t think it should be done overnight. I prefer the system of charities, mutual assistance societies, and what I would term ‘civil society’ that prevailed before the Nanny State.

I understand what you are saying about Muslim immigration into the UK; if the influx continues, and their birth rates stay high, you will have one man, one vote, one time and Sharia will be delivered upon you by a majority Muslim population. The outcome may take many decades but if current trends continue, it is certainly a possible European future. Then again, maybe 2nd and 3rd generation will be corrupted to the sex, drugs and rock and roll ways of the West. Or become decadent, sitting on their asses, and watching reality TV, rather than engaging in proper Jihad and bombing a subway yelling Allahu Akbar.

[Bob BashboshParticipant 160]

Veniversum wrote:

Bob, you deserve a much more sophisticated name. I admire your intellect, and perspective.

Hahaha, you flatter me Veni, I’m barely keeping up with the discussion and I’m trying hard to wake up to the realities of life that have hitherto passed me by. I’m not an academic, so much of my reasoning is based on, what I hope, amounts to common sense. I appreciate the moral support my friend.

FrankOne wrote:

Where I live, the Rustbelt, typical tax rate in rural areas is 50 mills. Tax valuation is 35% of real value. So let’s take a 20-acre farm where I garden. At ~$5700/acre I’m going to have $5,700 x 20 acres x 0.35 = ~$40K value x 50 mills/K = $2000 annual taxes. I’m skeptical the $2,000 is what’s keeping people from becoming subsistence gardeners; they could sell some of their fruits & vegetables or work part time in the nearest town to pay their taxes. If I carefully chose where to live, this tax burden could be cut in half. About 3/4 of these typical taxes, go to our school district where I live, funding primary & secondary education. Ultimately I’d rather parents have to pay for schooling, but I’m just giving you the numbers for your consideration. So, while I disagree with the taxes I don’t feel it’s keeping people from living this dream.

Aaahh, now you see, that was a great post Frank and it’s reassuring to see that we DO share some common ground. Perhaps then, it’s just a question of perception.

That’s a very interesting tax appraisal and I appreciate your rationale but I think you summed it up very nicely with:

FrankOne wrote:

I certainly want to do away with welfare long term, but I don’t think it should be done overnight. I prefer the system of charities, mutual assistance societies, and what I would term ‘civil society’ that prevailed before the Nanny State.

There.. ‘Nanny State’ – my favourite expression.

You mention that roughly 3/4 of your taxes goes towards supporting local primary and secondary educational facilities and yet, I gather, many parents are turning to ‘home schooling’ their children for many practical reasons, not least of which is the apparent subversion of educational facilities as tools for state indoctrination, but also the chronic decline in teaching standards and general dumbing down of ‘elitist’ (and by that, I actually mean, ‘competitive’) practices. I dream of a truly free society where ‘taxes’ are actually voluntary contributions to worthy recipients in exchange for services rendered. If a family of turnip farmers choose to home school their kids, they should be exempt from that 3/4 tax burden.

You see, I’m not entirely against taxes. I know that a sovereign Nation needs to protect its borders and it needs some sort of judicial and legislative framework but I really think that ‘power’ needs to be placed firmly back in the hands of the populace. THEY have to decide where their resources are going to go and what things constitute a priority in their lives. If they get it wrong, they’ll suffer and they’ll adapt/revise but it has to be a fluid, organic mechanism, not a rigid set of codes. Also, I think this idea of radical decentralisation and devolution of power back to the grass roots would foster renewed interest in local communities. Friends, neighbours and relatives all advising and helping each other for mutual benefit.

Speaking of which, Britain has changed beyond all recognition within my relatively brief life span. In my teens and early 20’s, there was a thriving community spirit with local markets and festivities abound. The pub was the social keystone and neighbours were often perceived as extended family rather than local strangers. Nannying ‘liberal’ reforms have imposed so many needless social and financial burdens on society that most have simply conceded defeat and withdrawn from public discourse. I want people to feel that they have a stake in their futures again.

FrankOne wrote:

I think the ‘system’ does constrain aspirations; but I attribute much of the ‘system’ to social conditioning: Most people ‘must’ have a fancy new car, apartment, stereo, cell phone, vacation, wife + kids, etc. Seldom do they make a decision to, say, live with a roomate, drive a 15 year old car, cook every meal at home, etc. Expenses balloon with income for most people. I would argue that a significant number of people’s expense will increase in lockstep with their income.

There we agree. Certainly, systematic social conditioning has much to answer for and I really don’t have an answer. How does one ‘treat’ a mentally unhealthy population? How does the military undo the programming that took place during a soldier’s induction before they reintegrate into society? You only have to observe the behaviour of a defeated husband to see just how hopelessly lost we are. I recall a time when ‘real’ men drove clapped out Ford Transits, not BMW’s, home improvements were done on a shoestring by Bill, the joiner next door. The wife, Mavis, was a proud home maker, herb grower, cook and mother and little Johnnie wanted to be a fireman when he grew up, not a bloody x-factor ‘celebrity’. I think a whole host of destructive influences have taken root over the past few decades and we need a clean sweep – a return to sanity.

FrankOne wrote:

China has its problems — pollution, corruption, lack of democracy and freedoms, etc — but it’s also had high growth. Chinese economic growth really started to pick up in the late 1970’s when agriculture was decollectivized and then picked up a lot more steam with business privatization in the 80’s and 90’s. A huge contrast to the Great Leap Forward of the late 1950’s.

I don’t deny that China has ‘grown’, Frank, nor that, things have improved somewhat on the social side, but, I believe that they chose the wrong model for their ‘cultural awakening’. They squandered the chance to create something unprecedented, simply for the sake of short-term gain. A gain, incidentally, that was never intended to benefit all in equal measure, irrespective of each individuals respective contribution – it wreaks of Authoritarian expansion, not cultural revolution.

FrankOne wrote:

I see the Mexicans at the Taco Trucks here — also paying cash — which is good — they’re spending money here. Granted, they do a lot of work in the underground economy for cash.

Yes, but none of that money is going into the tax coffers. Maybe that’s a good thing from an Anarchists perspective but again, I hate the duplicity, I hate the hypocrisy. The winners in this arrangement, as always, are those who thumb their nose at the law, not those who strive to comply with it.

FrankOne wrote:

I wasn’t suggesting we have a totally free world economy — only that competition has many beneficial aspects.

I agree, friendly competition does wonders for all involved.. it motivates, it challenges, it rewards.

FrankOne wrote:

In the US, we tried protectionism in the form of Smoot-Hawley. It prolonged the Great Depression in my opinion.

I’m sure many would agree with you, Frank. Personally, I see protectionism as a long-haul strategy, a solid, if sometimes, painful transitional period of rebalance. I think the US administration was terrified that there would be blood in the streets if a quick fix wasn’t found and thus, some of the most destructive economic precedents were implemented as a result, the consequences of which, are still negatively affecting us today.

FrankOne wrote:

I understand what you are saying about Muslim immigration into the UK; if the influx continues, and their birth rates stay high, you will have one man, one vote, one time and Sharia will be delivered upon you by a majority Muslim population. The outcome may take many decades but if current trends continue, it is certainly a possible European future. Then again, maybe 2nd and 3rd generation will be corrupted to the sex, drugs and rock and roll ways of the West. Or become decadent, sitting on their asses, and watching reality TV, rather than engaging in proper Jihad and bombing a subway yelling Allahu Akbar.

lol @ proper Jihad – what better way to spend a Sunday afternoon with the wife and kids.

Yes, it is a serious concern to a great many of the ‘silent majority’ who feel too furtive to express their opinions publicly for fear of being labelled ‘racist’ or ‘fascist’. I’m conscious that, according to various news sources and backed up by the last National census. To quote ‘The Times’:

“..The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times. The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million. ..”

And of course, the baby boomers are all falling by the wayside so we can expect those figures to become more pronounced in coming years.

Right, on that happy note, I’m off for Chrimbo lunch… Merry Christmas all! 😀

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

Bob Bashbosh writes: You mention that roughly 3/4 of your taxes goes towards supporting local primary and secondary educational facilities and yet, I gather, many parents are turning to ‘home schooling’ their children for many practical reasons, not least of which is the apparent subversion of educational facilities as tools for state indoctrination, but also the chronic decline in teaching standards and general dumbing down of ‘elitist’ (and by that, I actually mean, ‘competitive’) practices.

In the US, about 3% of primary and secondary children are home-schooled. About 10% are private-schooled. I’ve done tutoring for home-schoolers before, it was a very interesting experience to see how it works. Tests were mailed out for grading so it was very objective. Quite different than I thought, actually. I was impressed. This was about 20 years ago. It was very organized, with textbooks mailed to the parents and a well-developed lesson plan. Most parents don’t have the resources or commitment to home-school; I saw it practiced mostly amongst committed fundamentalist Christians.

Most of the private schools (about 80% or so) in the US are religiously affiliated, primarily Catholic and other Christian denominations.

I’d love to see school choice (public tax dollars going to school of the parents’ choosing), followed ultimately by total privatization, gradually adopted. I think ‘choice’ is a good interim measure, in that it would promote efficiency and competition, even if taxpayers still footed the bill, but privatization ought to be the ultimate goal. In the US, the teachers unions are powerful political forces, and have fought the choice movement in public discourse, and also, tried to sabotage it surreptitiously, through rules and regulations governing charter schools.

In the US, the public school system is somewhat of a two-tiered system. I went to Catholic private schools in primary grades except 1 year public; then 4 years of public high school. So I’ve experienced both. However, I reside in the suburbs; the schools here are halfway decent academically (aside from the leftist political indoctrination that is endemic, as well as the immersion into materialistic culture which is endemic everywhere). The extremely poor schools, are typically located in the center cities or ‘inner cities’ of America. This is where choice or alternatives, are most desperately needed. The schools do a terrible job of teaching vocational skills overall — not enough students are put on a vocational track. So that’s my take on American primary and secondary education.

“..Bob writes: The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times. The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million. ..”

Well, I guess we need to Man Up, find that special snowflake, and produce 10 children to outnumber the infidels! Just kidding.

I was jokingly using the term ‘proper Muslim’, because at least in the US, countless apologetic articles are written stating ‘jihad’ merely means a personal struggle to follow the Prophet and be a better person. The reality, of course, is that to a significant fraction of Muslims, that is not what jihad means at all; the second meaning is the outer struggle against the enemies of Islam. That is why during Soviet occupation, the rebels of Afghanistan were called the mujahideen — the plural of jihjad — the guerilla warriors that hastened the collapse of the Soviet empire. Of course, the US supported them, on the grounds of the ‘enemy of our enemy is our friend’ doctrine. That sorta bit us in the ass decades later, didn’t it?

That said, terrorism is not a one-religion monopoly. There were Irish Catholics organized in the US, who sent money to the IRA in the 1970’s, funding bombings and killings of Protestants. And there are certainly moderate Muslims and moderate Christians, who don’t believe in the verses of their respective religious texts ordering killing people. Christian persecution of Jews was the norm, until relatively recent history.

And I have known good, hard-working upstanding Muslims who prayed 5 times a day, but were not ‘radical’. However, because Islam has had no reformation as Christianity had, some principles of what, for lack of a better word, I’d call ‘humanism’, or perhaps ‘tolerance’,, have not been integrated into many believers. As a result of this, a significant fraction of the world Muslim population supports some terrorism, as evidenced by numerous surveys.

On immigration: Canada has a more enlightened policy of immigration than the US, which amounts for 2/3 of its population growth. A few minutes ago I was just reading a WSJ article about it; they award points for language skills, job skills, etc — an objective metric rather than basing it upon political persecution, race or country of origin. And this has resulted in a more successful integration of immigrants economically and culturally. I think integration relates to economics; I have read in the UK almost 30% of Muslims immigrants reside in public housing/council housing, whatever you call it there. If populations don’t become employed it’s harder to integrate.

Survivor: I would like to see zoning eased and property taxes, especially for public education, ultimately eliminated. But I don’t think the ~$5/day property taxes someone would pay on 20 acres in a rural area, is what is keeping people from living the subsistence dream. I’d say most people don’t have a large enough yard, to live off of. At least those of us in the ‘burbs.

As for the rest of it, Ayn Rand wasn’t a lesbian, she certainly cheated on her husband Frank O’Connor with her relationship with Nathaniel Braden, though. I didn’t understand what you were trying to say about Dagny Taggart.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Veniversum wrote:

and even you conceded that people can even acquire smart phones for free.

Yeah, you get a “free” phone when you sign a 2 year service agreement for 110 dollars a month…which is why I said the price of the actual phone isn’t the issue, the the excessive monthly bill for a luxury item most people seem to have money for, yet they have 0 dollars in savings.

FrankOne wrote:

This distinction even transcends their pay or skill levels; the ones that save and invest responsibly, are wealthy and have a plan for retirement, even if they aren’t among the highest paid, though the two often do go together. Hell, the JANITOR where I work, owns stocks.

Some people are simply smart enough to realize consistently saving a little over a long period of time adds up to a huge amount…other morons like to act like they’d die with no smart phone while they live paycheck to paycheck.

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

Beer writes: Yeah, you get a “free” phone when you sign a 2 year service agreement for 110 dollars a month…which is why I said the price of the actual phone isn’t the issue, the the excessive monthly bill for a luxury item most people seem to have money for, yet they have 0 dollars in savings.

I find it most interesting on a psychological level. Advertisers have finely tuned their marketing to appeal to emotions. People ‘must’ have the latest iPhone 6; an iPhone 4 or 5 simply won’t do; a child would be ’embarassed’ and ‘deprived’ with such a mobile, when all of their peers have the Almighty Six. Or substitute Droid. Or whatever.

Widespread consumer indebtedness, is a relatively new phenomenon; installment plans, by which goods were purchased incrementally, became commonplace only recently, in the 192o’s. Credit cards developed approximately 30 years later in the 1950’s and fueled the debt culture of today. And people defining themselves by the s~~~ they own. Credit existed prior to this era, but it’s exploded since.

For the record, I actually own an iPad, though not the latest & greatest. But I actually use it an hour a day to read the newspaper and books. I recognize it’s over-priced, but I bought it for the iOS user interface, which I am used to. I only upgraded from my original iPad when the old one would no longer take software updates to run current apps. Gotta love planned obsolescence, though I understand the reasons for rapidly evolving technologies.

Beer writes: Some people are simply smart enough to realize consistently saving a little over a long period of time adds up to a huge amount…other morons like to act like they’d die with no smart phone while they live paycheck to paycheck.

Yes, when you add up all the ‘incidentals’ — cable TV, internet, car payment (why not buy an old used car instead of leasing or financing a new one?), apartment rent (why not buy a modest house that needs work, or simply live in a used mobile home), etc. Pretty soon you’re working the whole damn year AND not saving anything. This is the predicament that many find themselves in. I don’t view it as some Grand Conspiracy to put you in this spot, but rather, good marketing and our own weak wills.

And not teaching personal finance — show kids a range of living options, not all of which include a 40 hr week as a Corporate robot. Or be a minimalist robot who retires after 20 years.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Smart phones are cheap enough if you buy them used, and I already suggested the solution for expensive service by unlocking the phone. I purchased a Sony Xperia play for $50 on Ebay, and then unlocked it and put in a Wal-Mart sim. Sorry, but this is a fact. I have provided absolutely irrefutable proof that possession of a smart phone, alone, is not an indicator of frivolous spending.

In any case, the problem most lower income people have, which has primarily been my problem aside from spending too much eating out, is that they make so little extra above what is required, that by the time they do save enough money for an emergency, their vehicle breaks down. This has been my personal experience. The rest of my extra money was spent on badass music equipment, which added up to thousands of dollars.

FrankOne wrote:

(why not buy an old used car instead of leasing or financing a new one?)

For bottom income people, they usually *do* buy a used car, because they can’t afford a new one, or simply do not have the credit to get approved, (Isn’t no credit worse than bad credit?) Then like I said, they save money and by the time they get some up, the used car breaks down, consuming the rest of it. This coupled with other types of planned obsolescence forces the average low income people to constantly spend any extra they have. Even here on MGTOW, I recently read about a guy who would drive around neighborhoods peppering the roads with dry wall screws because he owned a tire business. The “Grand Conspiracy” isn’t necessarily a a conspiracy at all, it’s just that people will do anything for money, at the expense of someone else. Sometimes businesses are pressed in such a manner that they have to or their business dies. I’ve already pointed out that people refuse to lose. When presented with the option to do something unethical, or die, the choice becomes clear for a business. This has always been true; it might always be true. On the show “Shark Tank” Kevin O’leary was presented with a product that was of slightly too high quality to sell often enough and he said right there on national television “You kind of want it to break sometimes”. Without consumerism, the Keynesian economy collapses. Now, I’m not 100% knowledgeable on economics, so if any of you have a theory as to why, feel free to key in. The only reason I know this fact is because I have seen it said over and over and over in videos, articles, interviews, etc. Planned obsolescence has become a very real phenomenon, I think, because businesses have to pay for certain things in units of time, like hourly wages, electricity, etc. I don’t believe that units of time should be a factor in economics. It occurs to me, and I know for a fact, that psychology is used in the form of “false time constraints” to apply unnecessary sales pressure on people as well. I learned some of these psychological tactics during my brief stint as a door to door salesman. They also try to use pressure that insinuates if you do not buy their product, that you are stupid, or that if you do that you are smart, appealing to the insecurities of people. These type of strategies were played out in the book “Propaganda” by Edward Bernays.

On a side note, I agree with all of you about minimalizing spending. That’s why I bought a straight razor and strop, for example and I use soap to shave now. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper than disposable razors, and a straight razor is something that can be passed on to future generations.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

Veniversum wrote:

In any case, the problem most lower income people have, which has primarily been my problem aside from spending too much eating out, is that they make so little extra above what is required, that by the time they do save enough money for an emergency, their vehicle breaks down. This has been my personal experience. The rest of my extra money was spent on badass music equipment, which added up to thousands of dollars.

This is exactly what I was using smart phones as an example of. People will spend 100 a month on a phone when they could spend 30, they spend 80 a month on cable tv and 50 a month on cable internet when they could spend 10-20 a month on dsl and 8 a month on netflix, or like you mention going out to eat too much or even just not being an efficient grocery shopper, etc. They think all these extra frills are NEEDS when they are not, and when you add up an extra 1, 2, or 3 hundred dollars a month a lot of people consistently waste on stuff they don’t really need, they could be saving thousands a year, instead they live paycheck to paycheck. I’m not singling out poor people here…there are plenty of people making 30-50k+ that do this that live paycheck to paycheck and don’t even have money set aside for a small emergency fund…yet they have HBO and the latest iphone.

FrankOne wrote:

And not teaching personal finance — show kids a range of living options, not all of which include a 40 hr week as a Corporate robot. Or be a minimalist robot who retires after 20 years.

Exactly! Its not bad to enjoy your money while you have an emergency fund and are setting a little aside for the future consistently, but too many people simply fall for the trap of “can I afford the monthly payment?” and the second something extra pops up they are in panic mode.

It amazes me how many classes I had to take in high school and college that were absolutely worthless to my future, but it was never required or even offered to take a basic finance course to teach people applied life skills like how tax brackets work, how to file your own taxes, how loans and interest works, how compounding interest works, the basics of investing in stocks, rentals, bonds, etc. They offered a few free workshops in college, but naturally about 6 people would bother to show up to them, and from the few I went to the people who did show up generally already had their s~~~ together and were just hoping for a few fresh ideas or ways to improve, they weren’t the financially clueless type that would have actually gotten a lot of benefit. Any guidance counselor you went to was more than willing to extend a plethora of knowledge on how to dig yourself as deep as possible into student debt though.

The best part about the whole system is how those willing to dig themselves into debt on behalf of consumerism love to laugh at those of us who don’t because they have more stuff than us. I get joked on for not having a smart phone all the time. I just smile and laugh…not with them though, at them. The 1,000 shares of ATT I own pays almost $500 a quarter in dividends. Its great being a partial owner of ATT getting laughed at by my customers while my yearly payout would be more than enough to buy whatever cell phone and data package I wanted if I actually wanted one. I can’t wait to increase my stake over the coming years…over spending consumerists with their fancy phones have been most helpful in contributing to my early retirement. Its also vital they keep themselves in debt to fund their lifestyle, I want the dividends from the credit cards and banks I am partial owner of to keep paying out as well.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

I agree Beer, many people are irresponsible with their money, and are not taught in public schools how to be, or like myself, raised by a single mother who had no parents, are missing 2 generations of passed down guidance and wisdom. None the less, communism and fiat currency aren’t making it any easier.. and neither is having 40% of our income taxed away. We need a combination of the two: The abolishment of the ten planks of communism, & fiscal responsibility. However, if we have fiscal responsibility and still have fiat currency, the lack of spending will collapse the economy. As I said before, without spending, the Keynesian model collapses.

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

Survivor writes: FrankOne, nobody ever said property taxes are stopping people from doing agriculture on their own land, Stop strawmanning.

it’s zoning laws based on input from ICLEI (International committee of local environmental issues).

Are you not reading the supplemental materials you’ve been provided with?

Wrong. Multiple contributors to this thread and others indicated property taxes discouraged a subsistence agriculture lifestyle. Taxes were cited and discussed by Veniversum, QuietlyQuietly, Beer, Cipher Highwind, Snake, and me in this very thread, and probably a couple others. I quantified precisely what these taxes would amount to in a rural county in the Midwestern State in which I reside, to solicit further comments.

In the State where I live, zoning is draconian in the cities and suburbs. In contrast, in rural areas, zoning is insignificant. Property and sales taxes are also much higher in the urban areas. In the rural county in which I lived a decade ago, septic tanks were permitted where sewers didn’t extend, building codes were minimal compared to the city, and you could pretty much do whatever the hell you pleased with your land as long as you paid the property taxes and put up a fence to cover eyesores. A very sharp contrast to the urban locales, wherein nothing can be done without permission from the local Nazis. You could put a mobile home anywhere in this rural county, for instance. The lower price of land, looser building codes and permitting, and fewer jobs and amenities, also resulted in housing stock selling for about 1/2 what one would pay for an equivalent home, in the suburb I reside in. A good argument for retiring in the country, and indeed, much of the population of said county, is retirees. Nobody is going to start buying up tracts of land in the ‘burbs, wreck all the improvements, and run their Dream Farm there. I figured that was implicit in this discussion and explicitly stated the millage rates quoted to be applicable to rural counties. In such a scenario, subsistence with little or no cash income, realistically, property taxes will be the main form of Tribute that such a citizen would pay to the State.

Veniversum/Beer: I’ve had 16 years of education, and the only personal finance training I had, was on filling out a 1040EZ in high school. The economics classes covered theory and not budgeting. Why did I turn into a skinflint/saver? Because my parents were AND due to my personality.

In my opinion, we could have fiscal responsibility without totally crashing the economy, with fiat currency, but it would need to be done gradually, and it WOULD cause unemployment and a recession in the short term, because markets would need to adjust and capital and resources be re-directed. After all, the economy worked and grew prior to 1971.

Also, one other comment about taxes: I attended public schools for 5 years of my primary + secondary education (100% taxpayer subsidized), then another 4 years of college (taxpayer-subsidized at ~66%). So my paying SOME tax (property or otherwise) to cover at least the cost and interest, for these services I have consumed, makes perfect sense to me, and I accept that. The cost of those services, amounts to tens of thousands of dollars. At the same time, in the future I’d like many of these services privatized. Again, there is no ‘free lunch’. Either I pay it, government coerces somebody else to pay it, we pay for it by inflating currency, etc. ‘Nobody pays for it’ isn’t an option. ‘Free’ government services still have to be paid for somehow, by someone.

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

Veniversum/Beer: I’ve had 16 years of education, and the only personal finance training I had, was on filling out a 1040EZ in high school. The economics classes covered theory and not budgeting. Why did I turn into a skinflint/saver? Because my parents were AND due to my personality.

Personality is a huge factor, which most people don’t want to accept responsibility for. I have an older brother who had gone to the same schools I did, and had been treated the same by our parents. He doesn’t have a dime in the bank, but he’s already financed and driven 3 brand new cars off the lot in his life time. He’s probably spent more on interest for the car payments he has had over the years than what I spent total on my last car, which was only 2 years old when I bought it. He knows what he’s doing, he’s smart enough to understand how loans work and crunch the numbers, he just doesn’t care because the new cars are more important to him, and the fact that he doesn’t have any savings doesn’t matter to him because he has money to spend next week, and retirement is 30 years off, so he’ll worry about it later.(aka, bitch excessively when retirement is around the corner and he realizes his prospects aren’t looking too good)

FrankOne wrote:

In my opinion, we could have fiscal responsibility without totally crashing the economy, with fiat currency, but it would need to be done gradually, and it WOULD cause unemployment and a recession in the short term, because markets would need to adjust and capital and resources be re-directed. After all, the economy worked and grew prior to 1971.

Exactly. If more people, and the government, started being more fiscally responsible right now, its not going to collapse the system…we’d probably have a few stagnant years as money goes towards paying debts off rather than buying new stuff, but ultimately people will end up with more cash to spend on things as they won’t be paying as much interest on loans. All personal borrowing does for the economy is give us a little more growth today at the expense of a little growth tomorrow.

The way I see it…maybe I’m going to earn 2 million dollars over the course of my working years. I could finance a bunch of stuff and pay a ton of interest, and in the end, maybe have spent 1,700,000 on stuff and 300,000 on interest, or I could live cheap and invest now, turn my 2m into 3m, and spend it all on stuff and none on interest. Saving hard when I’m young will allow me to spend more over my lifetime, rather than splurging when I’m young and eating cat food when I’m older.

FrankOne wrote:

Also, one other comment about taxes: I attended public schools for 5 years of my primary + secondary education (100% taxpayer subsidized), then another 4 years of college (taxpayer-subsidized at ~66%). So my paying SOME tax (property or otherwise) to cover at least the cost and interest, for these services I have consumed, makes perfect sense to me, and I accept that. The cost of those services, amounts to tens of thousands of dollars. At the same time, in the future I’d like many of these services privatized. Again, there is no ‘free lunch’. Either I pay it, government coerces somebody else to pay it, we pay for it by inflating currency, etc. ‘Nobody pays for it’ isn’t an option. ‘Free’ government services still have to be paid for somehow, by someone.

Yup…there are some things like schools and roads society simply isn’t going to do away with. I have no problem throwing a little money in the pot as long as everyone else is, and considering we all benefit from them that is the way it should be. Crying about property taxes is irrelevant to me…even if property taxes were abolished towns would just turn to other forms of taxation, and in the end its going to end up costing the same amount of money. Maybe the school system, the way the towns manage roads and emergency services have issues…but those issues have nothing to do with how the town collects its money.

Acting like property taxes are the ultimate evil even though I’ve had my shot at a k-12 education as a minor, and when literally every object in my house got there via public roads, and even if I don’t own a car I still use a bus or taxi on public roads is pretty much the same as whining I’m a giant douche. I’d be much more on board with people who would rather complain about state or federal spending, as state and federal governments waste a lot more money on a lot more dumb s~~~ than local governments, which almost all goes to schools, roads, and emergency services.

I’m not trying to argue these systems are all perfect, and icons of efficiency…its just that its not going to make any difference in the long run if my town abolished property taxes and started hitting residents with an extra income tax instead…or for small towns to start charging VAT’s its just suicide, as I could drive 5 minutes over to any of the 4 other towns that border mine and shop there where I don’t have to pay it, or potentially pay a lower rate.

[CatsPawParticipant 423]

I think most people have very strong opinions on this topic ( Gold, crypto, etc).
For all of you out there who are interested, this is not a problem that comes a certain monetary system or policy but one that is rooted in human mentality.

You cannot have history repeat itself for such a long time and still say: yeah, its just the system thats the problem, but we will get it right this time.
Its a similar problem as in politics or corporations: You cant change the system unless the people that form it are changed.

Unfortunately, this is something that wont happen due to human biology and the first step to a strong and smart manageable economy is (believe it or not) MGTOW.

Thru time men have been given two basic options to get women:
1. Good looks.
2. Good quality of life.

1 goes for younger ones, 2 goes for older ones.

But we are always competing and always trying to be better than the guy next to us, for the sole purpose of increasing our chances with females.
Not everyone plays by the rules, so it gets dirty.
However, once females are not a goal, a sustainable life style is more than possible.
Then it wont matter what system we have, because everyone will have what they want anyway (except females until they adapt to a new reality.)
Thats assuming MGTOW becomes the standard thou.

Think about it this way: Its the first movement that goes against our biological needs for a greater good (ours, yes, but still).
Thats why it might work with economy as well, once we have that mentality:

I need X amount, everything else I make, I can just give away.

Everything else will fail, and history proves it. Yes, Gold per se does not fail, but since those who make the decisions screw with it, even gold is not “safe”.

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

But Zoning is ALSO an issue, dips~~~. Red herring with the taxes issue.

How is zoning an issue in a rural county, in which agriculture is permitted, and you can drop a cheap mobile home anywhere on your plot with impunity?

Zoning prohibits keeping livestock in urban areas in many locales, such as the suburb of a large city, in which I presently reside. There are no similar restrictions in rural areas — where one would actually want to run a subsistence agriculture experiment — i.e. where you have adequate land for chicken coops, cows grazing, etc. In suburban areas such as that in which I live, the land is so expensive as to make such an endeavor unaffordable.

Once I disproved your statements about whether property taxes had been discussed in this thread, you launched another ad hominem. If your position is that the $5 a day you pay in property taxes on a rural farm, is excessive, then make a case for that; if you didn’t attend public schools and consume that service and don’t feel you should have to pay it back in taxes, then make a case for that too. If zoning is prohibiting farming, than cite some cases where farms in Indiana, say, aren’t allowed to grow corn because of zoning restrictions. What zoning restrictions, specifically, are you talking about?

[BeerParticipant 11832]

FrankOne wrote:

What zoning restrictions, specifically, are you talking about?

I was wondering about this as well. I know plenty of people in residential areas with less than an acre that have goats or chickens, gardens, and fruit trees…and if you have a small lot in a residential area how much are you really going to be producing off it other than that basic stuff anyhow?

The only things they really enforce in residential areas here are building structures without the proper permits, or too close to property lines/the road, or if you have so many animals its a health hazard…like the freaks with 47 cats in a house. Well that stuff, and if you have like 8 cars on cinder blocks in your front yard and your place looks like a dump you’ll ordered to clean it up and get fined, but I’m glad they do that because I wouldn’t want some dirt bag dragging down property values with his garbage.

I don’t know, maybe its different in some places, but I know my uncle lives on a residential lot in a country-ish town…he probably has about 4 acres, and he has a barn, 3 cows, chickens, rabbits, about 5 dogs, a peac~~~, a man made pond, and whatever my aunt feels like growing in the garden that year and its never been an issue with anyone. Yeah he had to have the proper permits to put the barn up and dig the pond out, but beyond that he keeps the place clean, keeps his animals contained on his property, and nobody has ever complained.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

[Blue SkiesParticipant 15665]

i strongly recommend this movie, The Big Short.

so f~~~ing great
it talks about the crash of 2008, big bank bailout from taxpayer money, stupidity of the financial system, etc
i just saw the movie

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/

MGTOW is not a movement, it is a way of life.

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

Survivor: If you don’t put URL’s in your posts, and/or omit the protocol prefix, most messages, will post instantly, at least that’s been my experience.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/24/it-is-actually-illegal-in-colorado-to-collect-the-rain-that-falls-on-your-home/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegetable-garden-brings-criminal-charges-oak-park-michigan/story?id=14047214

I’m not denying municipalities have excessive zoning; they always have. I live in a suburb of a major metro area; I must cut the grass to a certain height. There are restrictions on what I can put on the property. As discussed previously, you move to a rural area if you want to do subsistence or other serious farming. I agree the zoning rules in urban areas are excessive, but at the same time, as I’ve stated, the urban areas are NOT going to be where you operate a subsistence farm, land is too expensive, and property taxes are high in urban areas. In rural areas where I live, you can largely do whatever you please. A sharp contrast to the cities and their suburbs.

I also agree people should be allowed to collect their rainwater, but in my view, NONE of these local rules have ANYTHING to do with international pressures. In my case, they have to do with residents in the suburb, wanting to keep appearances attractive so as not to decrease property values.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

God dammit can your release my f~~~ing posts and then fix that stupid “glitch”.

I get aggravated about this as well. I have several posts that I typed up that never even appeared. It makes me wonder if censorship is going on. I have to question the legitimacy of it. If censorship isn’t going on, then some changes should be made. I don’t even understand why the process of approval is necessary for these posts. If a specific user is trolling/spamming, that user can be banned, no? So why do we need to monitor individual posts??

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

I just posted a complaint about this in the MGTOW central forum titled “Forum Issues”

[FrankOneParticipant 1421]

I can understand why messages must be filtered; this site is a target, it has a big ‘bullseye’ on it.

That said, it seems to me the following might merit consideration:

1.) Automatically permit any post from a user who has been a member 3 months and has posted 50 messages to the forums (change values as needed for what constitutes a ‘trusted’ user, or just make it subjective and mark them trusted after a while. Untrusted users get subjected to filter, trusted users do not.).

2.) Self-moderation, where users who’ve been here a while can remove messages

3.) Give better immediate / interactive feedback after posting. If I post, instead of message not appearing at bottom of thread, show a dialog ‘Message saved, but requires moderator approval’. I realize that sidebar now shows number of posts awaiting moderator approval, but instant feedback, that the message was in the queue, would be even better in my humble opinion.

4.) If somebody posts too much in one day, e.g. > 25 posts, automatically dump everything they post into queue for moderator approval, on grounds their account has likely been compromised & somebody is trying to flood the forums.

5.) Save every message posted into a user directory, and keep the last 10 from each user. If they want to re-post something lost after a site crash, they can get at their folder and copy/paste it. Filenames visible to them would be forum name + thread name + timestamp. Keeping it in a mySQL table might be even better since it would allow for restoration of anything after a certain date.

I realize all this coding is a s~~~load of work, these are just humble suggestions.

[Author]

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