Home › Forums › MGTOW Central › Authority and Responsibility in Dating
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sidecar 3 years, 9 months ago.
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Alright guys, I just had to share this conversation I had with a young woman who is rapidly approaching the wall.
She was planning a dinner date and wanted some advice about who should pay and why… I encouraged her to pay her own way in order to maintain her ability to make legitimate decisions about where to go, what and how much to consume, how long to stay, what happens after the date, etc.
In other words, I told her that if she wants to have authority over what happens in her own life, she must earn it by taking responsibility for herself. The alternative, as I explained it, is that she lets the man call the shots and pay the fare and then she either f~~~s him, which makes her a prostitute, or she refuses to f~~~ him, which makes her a grifter.
Initially she fought me on the concept… until I came back with this:
“Remember, women didn’t vote themselves the right to vote… men gave them that right. Sure, the women had to do some convincing, but they wanted authority over their own lives and men granted them that authority. So now, nearly a hundred years later, you can be sure that any time a woman refuses to take responsibility for herself or appears to be weak, helpless or otherwise less capable than a man, it’s only because she’s acting that way in order to get something she wants without offering something of equal value in return.”
Silence.
Of course, I don’t entirely believe this. I actually believe that women are generally not capable of managing their own lives the way men do and are unwilling or unable to accept this fact for themselves… so they say they are equal to men (combining authority AND responsiblity) but then exercise the authority men have ceded to them while manipulating those same men into taking all the responsibility.
But that’s not an easy argument to sell. It’s far easier to tell them what they want to believe about themselves individually (“You’re doing it right!”) and then blame other women for f~~~ing it up for them… with the unspoken implication of “You don’t want to be like those women, do you?”
I’ll find out tomorrow if she paid her own way or not. I doubt it.
Anonymous1Back in my dating days I found that around 90% of the women i dated, insisted on paying their share. Problem was, they then had this air about them, like they were doing me a favour or I should be grateful they paid for THEIR s~~~. once had to stop myself thanking some Bitch once she’d paid for her own food and drink, such was my social programming.
It’s just as bad in my eyes.
Remember, women didn’t vote themselves the right to vote… men gave them that right.
Allowing non-tax payers to decide how men’s tax $$ get spent. WORST. DECISION. EVER.
When women lead, destruction is the destination. -- Me.
Well played, do keep us posted.
I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes...or should I?
Remember, women didn’t vote themselves the right to vote… men gave them that right.
Allowing non-tax payers to decide how men’s tax $$ get spent. WORST. DECISION. EVER.
They also don’t have to serve in the Army.
A MGTOW is a man who is not a woman's bitch!
I tend to look at it from a different angle. If I’m paying for dinner, it’s a gift. Gifts are freely given with no expectation of reimbursement. In other words, just because I pay does not mean she needs to put out. If a woman pays my meal, I certainly don’t feel obligated to put out for her.
I also recognize that just because she’s getting a benefit of a free meal doesn’t mean I get nothing out of it. If it means I pay $40 for a date (instead of $20) and I feel it’s worth it for the company, then ok. I’ll let her pay if she wants, but I went in thinking it was going to cost me $40, so ok. As well, if I’m perfectly honest, it’s not as if the feeling of paying for everything is completely unrewarding.
That said though, I don’t continue to ‘give gifts’ if she does not appreciate it or makes any attempt to do the same for me. That’s on me to ‘cut it off’ when I’m being taken advantage of. I don’t see the point of blaming her for taking advantage when I never said upfront that sex (or whatever) was implied when I buy dinner and have the ability to simply not take her out again.
Essentially, I give myself all the responsibility and control, and will act accordingly based on her behavior. No blame. I play the double-standard, against myself, and will never lose. I generally don’t care for other people paying for me as I don’t care for any of the implied appreciate or whatever may be expected in return. I don’t like being in another man’s (or woman’s debt). I hated it when my ex-father-inlaw would pay for a family dinner for that very reason. So from my POV, I don’t really get how a woman could let someone pay their way so easily.
As far as women paying their way because of the right to vote…that’s a stretch to me. No doubt, women have the ability to earn money, and thus pay for dates, the same as men do. However, biology still has the woman wanting to be taken care of while the man wants to provide. Yes, feminism f~~~ed that up, but I do see a problem with enjoying my ‘biological role’ every now and then if I want to.
Aside…I am reminded of particular date I had back in HS that really p~~~ed me off. I asked out a girl I work with and she happily agreed. We went to dinner, then to a baseball game and had a fun time. When I went to drop her off and went in for the kiss she stopped me. That wasn’t the problem, the problem was she then went on to tell me she only wanted to be friends, that she wasn’t over her old bf yet and didn’t want anything more. She knew I wanted to date, not be just friends. She knew we made around the same amount of money since we worked together. Yet, she had no problem leading me on and paying her way. The next day, I was not shy about telling a few coworkers what happened, which may her look pretty low amongst her coworkers, particularly the other guys. She ended up quitting a couple weeks later.
Ok. Then do it.
She was planning a dinner date and wanted some advice about who should pay and why
She was simply looking for a man to say “the man should pay” so she could use that as her reason NOT to pay for the date SHE was planning.
Just like the “I don’t have sex on the first date” bulls~~~.
(To which I respond with “You can pay the check then.”)
Anonymous3It’s just like everything else. If I were to take a friend, male or female, doesn’t matter, out for lunch or dinner, I’ll pay the bill no problemo. You can’t call somebody and say “hey yo, let’s go out for lunch!” and then have him pay half, unless you arrange it beforehand so everybody involved knows the money is going to be pooled.
Dating is no different. I remember when I was dating, when I asked a girl out, I would pay. It’s just a common courtesy because I initiated the meeting, therefore it’s my responsibility to take care of my guest. And I didn’t even expect sex or something, I always looked at it like hanging out with a friend and enjoying their company.
Aside…I am reminded of particular date I had back in HS that really p~~~ed me off. I asked out a girl I work with and she happily agreed. We went to dinner, then to a baseball game and had a fun time. When I went to drop her off and went in for the kiss she stopped me. That wasn’t the problem, the problem was she then went on to tell me she only wanted to be friends, that she wasn’t over her old bf yet and didn’t want anything more. She knew I wanted to date, not be just friends. She knew we made around the same amount of money since we worked together. Yet, she had no problem leading me on and paying her way. The next day, I was not shy about telling a few coworkers what happened, which may her look pretty low amongst her coworkers, particularly the other guys. She ended up quitting a couple weeks later.
Yeah, that’s the thing when they play the dumb card. That’s why I would do it in the reverse order, and only take women whom I have sealed the deal with out to dates.
*You pay
or
*She pays for herself
or
*She pays“Did you want to pick up the tab, or split it, or should I pick up the tab?”
"It seems like there's times a body gets struck down so low, there ain't a power on earth that can ever bring him up again. Seems like something inside dies so he don't even want to get up again. But he does."
Doc Fenderson wrote:
You can’t call somebody and say “hey yo, let’s go out for lunch!” and then have him pay half, unless you arrange it beforehand so everybody involved knows the money is going to be pooled.
Yes you can. “Hey man, I’m going to Jack in the Box for lunch at 11:30, you wanna meet me there?” Now why the hell would ANYONE expect to get a free lunch out of this?
The only reason you pay for anyone else is so you can show you have more money than they do… period. It’s Yanomami potlatching… “I’ve got the biggest yam and that makes me the boss!”
If you want to treat other people with respect and have them treat you with respect in turn, you don’t go around calling the shots and paying for them like you’re Daddy Warbucks and they’re your orphan children… you select a venue you know they can afford and invite them to meet you there.
Or if it helps, think of it the other way around… when you go out, even if you’re invited by someone else, do you just leave your wallet at home, order whatever you want and then sit with your arms folded waiting for them to pay? If not, then why not and what kind of person would you be if you did?
Maybe you would. I never do.
Doc Fenderson wrote:
If I’m paying for dinner, it’s a gift. Gifts are freely given with no expectation of reimbursement.
During our conversation, we discussed this point and the “sex on the first date” point as well. I’m not buying the whole “buying dinner is a gift without expectations” thing. When a guy buys dinner for a friend on his birthday, it’s a gift. When a man takes a woman out and pays for the date, it’s generally him competing for sexual access by way of signaling his ability to provide for her.
We don’t have any right to expect them to be honest with us, but we can at least be honest with ourselves.
As for sex on the first date, I advised her “If you want to f~~~ him, then f~~~ him. Why hold back… to make some show of sexual virtue that neither he nor you are going to believe?
If you’re wanting to bang a guy on your first meeting so badly that you have to create some elaborate justification for not doing it, it’s probably clear you don’t give a damn about him as a person anyway so grab that dick with both hands and stuff it in… have all the carefree fun you can without hesitation or apology while you’re young… you will not get a second chance.”
Again, these days I simply tell women what they want to hear… that they are strong, independent people who can think, work, fight, f~~~ and pay for themselves just like men. And when she turns 30 and realizes that she’s wasted her youth, beauty and the prime time of her life acting like a man and has nothing but debt and psychological scars to show for it, well maybe then she will understand.
Like I said, as men we have little choice but to face the truth about ourselves and our actions. As for women… well at this point they can still get away with self-delusion, but not for much longer, perhaps.
narwhal wrote:
@doc I don’t disagree that I have a motive when paying for dinner. But that doesn’t change the fact that I view it more as a gift then an obligation for her to do something in return for me.
And I can understand why that’s not acceptable to you. It’s the angle I choose to take on the matter.
If you’re wanting to bang a guy on your first meeting so badly that you have to create some elaborate justification for not doing it, it’s probably clear you don’t give a damn about him as a person anyway
I’m not following you there. There are good reasons not to sleep with someone on a first date, so perhaps I don’t understand what kind of elaborate justification you’re referring to. Also, don’t understand how that justification is a sign of how much you care about that person.
Ok. Then do it.
Doc Fenderson wrote:
There are good reasons not to sleep with someone on a first date
Of course there are… self respect, respect for the other person, a desire to get to know someone before having sex in the hopes of enjoying real intimacy and perhaps having a meaningful relationship… all sorts of reasons, none of which this particular woman was expressing.
What she was talking about was wanting to f~~~ around but withholding sex as a strategy for… what, I might guess… getting the guy to try harder, spend money on her and believe she’s not just f~~~ing around, perhaps in an effort to convince *herself* that she’s not just f~~~ing around… it’s hard to say, exactly.
But my advice to her stands: if you want to f~~~ random hot guys the minute you meet them, don’t resist because you think society thinks you shouldn’t or play games to get a better bartering position… just embrace it while you’re still young and hot and can get whatever dick you want.
In other words, be honest with yourself. That’s all I ever ask of people.
OldBill wrote:
In other words, be honest with yourself. That’s all I ever ask of people.
That’s the best advice you could have given her, not that she’d follow or even understand it.
If I read your posts correctly, Doc, she was basically asking you for “advice” on how the game the poor bastard having dinner with her. And by advice, I mean she wants you to agree with all the decisions she’s already made.
For example, she’s planning the dinner party and yet doesn’t “know” if she should pay. She wants it to be a case of Her plans, his money. Typical behavior in a woman actually.
Her conversation about sex on the first date is just more of the same. She wants the c~~~ but also wants to she how much she can get for putting out. Again, typical female behavior.
Your advice that she be honest and act like an adult was spot on. Too bad she’ll never take it.
Do not date. Do not impregnate. Do not co-habitate. Above all, do not marry. Reclaim and never again surrender your personal sovereignty.
Anonymous3Tungus Khan wrote:
Yes you can. “Hey man, I’m going to Jack in the Box for lunch at 11:30, you wanna meet me there?” Now why the hell would ANYONE expect to get a free lunch out of this?
The only reason you pay for anyone else is so you can show you have more money than they do… period. It’s Yanomami potlatching… “I’ve got the biggest yam and that makes me the boss!”
If you want to treat other people with respect and have them treat you with respect in turn, you don’t go around calling the shots and paying for them like you’re Daddy Warbucks and they’re your orphan children… you select a venue you know they can afford and invite them to meet you there.
Or if it helps, think of it the other way around… when you go out, even if you’re invited by someone else, do you just leave your wallet at home, order whatever you want and then sit with your arms folded waiting for them to pay? If not, then why not and what kind of person would you be if you did?
Maybe you would. I never do.
Nope. And it’s comical that you bring up my financial situation when you haven’t a clue.
It has nothing to do with the invitee having his money. It’s like inviting people to a party you’re throwing. Do you only make enough food for yourself? Do you expect others to bring their own food and drinks? How about you answer me this, do you bring your own food and drinks if it was who is going to a party? Maybe if it was something for everybody that you were suppose to bring, yes, but only for yourself?
Of course there are always mutual meetings, like I said, countless of times, but there are times when it’s like a gift. Do you expect others to pay for the cost when you’re giving a gift? It’s a gift, I value the friends that I have, so I take them out and we have a nice meal.
I’m not going to call you unappreciative, even though that’s the vibe that I got from your post. Just think about something like this, I know you’ve said you’ve never done such a thing.
Doc Fenderson wrote:
It has nothing to do with the invitee having his money. It’s like inviting people to a party you’re throwing.
Yeah, in your pants. And if you’re picking up the tab, you’re paying her to attend.
I said nothing about YOUR “financial situation”. I stated that men who pay for dates are trying to lure women into sex with proof of provider ability and I likened it to tribal “big man” behavior where the chieftain who can expend the most wealth in the most lavish way possible gets to be the top dog. It’s all the same thing.
Paying for sex or attention or popularity or power is fine, so long as you know you’re doing it. It’s when you convince yourself that buying a date a fancy dinner is a “gift” that you’re giving “without expectation” that you’ve gone soft in the head.
I’ve paid many women for sex… both cash on the barrelhead and in goods and services… but I know and accept that that’s the transaction I’m making. I’ve also had equal relationships and I’ve had women buy my time and attention… but I never expect a freebie without being prepared to pay for it myself if need be. I’m realistic like that.
Anonymous3Tungus Khan wrote:
Yeah, in your pants. And if you’re picking up the tab, you’re paying her to attend.
I said nothing about YOUR “financial situation”. I stated that men who pay for dates are trying to lure women into sex with proof of provider ability and I likened it to tribal “big man” behavior where the chieftain who can expend the most wealth in the most lavish way possible gets to be the top dog. It’s all the same thing.
Paying for sex or attention or popularity or power is fine, so long as you know you’re doing it. It’s when you convince yourself that buying a date a fancy dinner is a “gift” that you’re giving “without expectation” that you’ve gone soft in the head.
I’ve paid many women for sex… both cash on the barrelhead and in goods and services… but I know and accept that that’s the transaction I’m making. I’ve also had equal relationships and I’ve had women buy my time and attention… but I never expect a freebie without being prepared to pay for it myself if need be. I’m realistic like that.
You specifically said I was paying to show off how much money I had. But that’s okay, I’ll go with you said just now and ignore that.
I’ve said this one time already. I would only take women whom I have sealed the deal with, in a relationship with, having sex with, whatever you call it, with out to dates. And on my terms. If she goes the typical “You wanna buy me a drink?” route, the answer is always no, and that applies for everybody.
Or with friends, I would sometimes take care of them as well. Same approach with both men and women, even though I don’t have any female friends anymore, it’s not like I can expect sex from the guy friends I have now can’t I?
Look, I don’t know why you’re so hung up on this. Has anybody ever did something for you that they didn’t have to? Has anybody ever helped you in your life? Do you think to yourself when a guy helps you, “Meh, he’s just trying to show off how strong he is for helping me move the couch and belittle me”?
I don’t know how else to explain to you such basic things. How about thanking and showing some sincere gratitude to the guy for helping you? Has it ever occurred to you, maybe the guy just wanted to help you move the couch? Or do you see ulterior motives in everything and everyone? Maybe it’s just a “gift”?
I mean, most of my friends have a very 50/50 approach, and even them understood it and were appreciative and thankful.
Anonymous12The way I have explained it to women in the past is if I am paying for the date than I do actually take that as some kind of hint that she likes me, she is after all accepting my generosity, so as such I expect some affection in return.
When she pays her own way, I see her as an equal and I expect nothing other than pleasant company.
So if the woman is serious about wanting not just equality but some authority over the date than she should be paying herself as well as letting the man know that she doesn’t see him as a free feed.
Im rocking with Doc on this one,dont fool yourself into thinking you’re paying for dinner for a buddy is the same as a women. When I take the tab for a buddy its because we have a reciprocated friendship like I know he would do it for me or has done it for me,but on the other hand with a women I have no desire to pay for dinner to hear her talk about stuff the average male can care less about,why do we sit and listen? because you’re trying to get laid at the end of the night.These days I dont pay 0% for anything female period,and if we hang out im paying my way and she pays her’s because she is 50% of the working class and besides feminism told me that’s patriarchal and I dont like p~~~ing them off.
Never lose sight of what brought you here.
Anonymous3Im rocking with Doc on this one,dont fool yourself into thinking you’re paying for dinner for a buddy is the same as a women. When I take the tab for a buddy its because we have a reciprocated friendship like I know he would do it for me or has done it for me,but on the other hand with a women I have no desire to pay for dinner to hear her talk about stuff the average male can care less about,why do we sit and listen? because you’re trying to get laid at the end of the night.These days I dont pay 0% for anything female period,and if we hang out im paying my way and she pays her’s because she is 50% of the working class and besides feminism told me that’s patriarchal and I dont like p~~~ing them off.
Of course, for the most part, it’s different for the two sexes. But at the end of the day, a friend is a friend, regardless of what they are. Most women simply won’t make it that far. I still had one woman that I considered a friend but she’s gone now so I have none right now. And the funny thing was, I wasn’t even attracted to this female friend of mine, certainly didn’t want some. So yeah, I suppose I was just trying to get laid.
Was it “blue pill” for the other cases, the dates or whatever, even though I didn’t actually expect anything? Possibly, the monks out here would probably say so, but then that was during the time when I still thought their company was enjoyable, and as I’ve said, the sex was already happening before any of it. Dating and paying for strangers is something I never did. That whole thing just always seemed stupid and pathetic to me, even during my most blue pill days.
I take the same approach with everybody. With friends, mostly guys but there were a couple of exceptions, if we’re cool and tight, no problem. With women, if she is going down and I like her to such a degree, sure.
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