Home › Forums › Philosophy › Atheism Quarterdeck: Aspiring Christian Apologists Welcome
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Sandals 4 years, 5 months ago.
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@john Doe we are not being punished by our tenure on earth, if you read the Bible you will come to understand that we chose to be here to prove to god that we could go through hell and still make it back to him, knowing in our heart of hearts they way.
FrankOne wrote: You can’t prove conservation of mass or energy across all cases. Noether’s theorem can ‘prove’ it for symmetrical systems but that is merely a mathematical proof. Then why does it say: “Systems that are not isolated may decrease in entropy, provided they increase the entropy of their environment by at least that same amount.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy) Meaning all systems are symmetric, and groups of systems are symmetric. Or energy is always conserved. If it was only for certain circumstances it wouldn’t be a law it would just be an equation. If mathematical proof isn’t enough to show you god exists in some way shape or form then I’m just wasting words and I’ll leave you hamsters to sit and spin.
First, a substantial fraction of Christians believe in creation ex nihilo (creation from nothingness), an obvious violation of conservation of mass and energy. For instance, that is Roman Catholic doctrine.
Second, I don’t know what you’re talking about ‘hamsters’, presumably some reference to rationalization; I’ve formally studied thermodynamics and heat transfer and understand the definition of entropy.
We do not know all systems are symmetric across all time. If you prescribe to the big bang theory, then the leading theory of why matter predominates over antimatter in the observable universe, is indeed CP asymmetry. All we can say is, we have only ever observed systems that exhibit conservation.
Symmetry and conservation of matter and energy, have nothing to do with whether God exists in and of themselves — though as noted, if one believe in ex nihilo creationism, then there is a contradiction.
You argument is certainly a peculiar one to make, given the National Academy of Sciences, the upper echelon of scientists, is about 90% atheists. That’s probably 15 times the rate of disbelief as in the general public; if there is convincing mathematical proof for doG then I’d certainly expect the best and brightest to recognize and accept it.
@ Frank See this is where you start going in circles again. You keep skipping past the point where the universe comes into existence. The “big bang” did not create the universe it was just the last time the universe was super condensed and then expanded. String theory suggests reflections of universes as an entirety, so that’s where all your anti-matter is. You still haven’t proven anything
Symmetry and conservation of matter and energy, have nothing to do with whether God exists in and of themselves — though as noted, if one believe in ex nihilo creationism, then there is a contradiction.
There is no contradiction, you are just have a one track mind. God caused the universe to manifest, the universe abides by these certain parameters (aka physics dependent on your position in space time). Science and God are two sides of the same coin. God is the reason, Science the explanation.
And one more thing just so we’re clear. Before the universe there were no rules of conservation to violate, so “ex nihilo” should read out of god, not out of nothingness but out of everythingness.
Watch that video, maybe you will understand.
Scrotimere: We don’t have a good model of what occurred before the four forces decoupled and it seems unlikely we’ll ever be able to achieve sufficiently high densities in accelerators to do so.
Most scientists would argue there was no space before the big bang; thus, it seems appropriate to say the big bang, created the universe.
As stated earlier, the predominant theoretical explanation of lack of anti-matter has been CP asymmetry for several decades. This has certainly not been proved.
Superstring theory hasn’t even BEEN a failure — it is not testable, has produced no useful predictions, and is unable to unify the forces for ~40 years. But still actively researched, since nobody has any better ideas.
But the bigger issue with the video is it doesn’t PROVE anything; that the universe had a definite beginning, agrees with biblical cosmology. Obviously, other parts of the Bible don’t agree with physics and astronomical observations, as has already been discussed on this thread extensively.
We do not know if the big bang will recur (i.e. whether the Universe is open or closed), but the growing consensus is that the universe is flat, and will expand forever. Errors in ‘weighing’ the universe obviously introduce uncertainty in such assessments.
God and science don’t mix well. A simple example: For all the dietary rules in the Old Testament, no simple rule to boil your water to kill tiny organisms you can’t see. Why not? Why no similar prescriptions from Muhammed, Pieces of Shrapnel be Upon Him? Why the grossly incorrect cosmologies in these religions? THAT is the realm of the provable.
As for non-sensical Biblical cosmology, much has been covered in the earlier thread but that was the tip of the iceberg. A few more errors: The moon is not a ‘great lamp’ like the sun as the Bible indicates; it reflects the Sun’s light. The stars are NOT small objects set in a ‘firmament’ or rigid dome, they do not ‘fall’ to earth when ‘it is shaken’, you don’t get closer to God/heaven by climbing a mountain (e.g. tower of Babel, Moses, Jesus) because there isn’t a rigid firmament above which water resides and above that God… What about the Star of Heaven that lead the wise men? Earlier attempts at explaining away the numerous flat earth verses were an epic fail by John Doe; you can’t sit ‘above’ a circle of the Earth unless it’s a FLAT disc… And of course Jesus seeing all Kingdoms from the mountaintop — not possible for a spherical earth. So getting into a discussion like this is really treacherous waters for apologists — you’re getting into the realm of provable reality.
As for the video, I watched it, I would also dispute the big bang theory is 50 years old; Hubble observed the expanding Universe in the late 1920’s, there was debate over it for some time (steady state theory vs expansion); the popular term ‘Big Bang’ dates back to Hoyle in the late 4o’s.
You’re missing the point still. I’m not arguing for the bible which I already said is rife with errors. I’m not arguing for organized religion which is petty mind control. I’m saying there was something that cause the universe to manifest into existence. Science and the Bible both describe the same thing beyond space, time, infinite in nature and able to influence the material universe. The rest is just you spinning in your hamster wheel. As for the video, he only says 50 years ago the idea was that the universe was infinite. It never says that big bang theory came out 50 years ago. Maybe you should apologize for posting misinformation…
Oh dear…..someone’s trying to take us off the right path and into a cul-de-sac of s~~~ and headbanging arguing over religion.
Let’s just agree to disagree or whatever on this one and agree on what we have in common…
Please, let’s not start bitching like t~~~s and building little walls and fences and corner cliques…
F~~~ that s~~~. We are men…….we are on the same side here.
Sermon over….. May your God, or Gods go with you…or not……I don’t give a f~~~, it’s none of my business what you believe just as I am not accountable to explain to anyone MY beliefs.
Hope that’s cleared up.
Cheers.
I am a Christian apologist and MGTOW, Im also a science student with broad interests across all disciplines within the sciences, I was recently a genetics math double major but I changed it to Math/Physics double major, but im sure I will be changing that again before I graduate. Before I attempt to argue for the existence of God, I have a serious issue with your perception of Religion as a net negative. Monotheism was the first Moral Code of the ancient world, many other pagan beliefs practiced human and child sacrifice during the same period and location of the Abrahamic religions. Religious institutions had made some of the greatest contributions to science in history human history. I know it sounds ridiculous but hear me through, leading into the fall of the roman empire as a result of barbarian invasion and “progressive” policies and infighting, the only way for knowledge that the empire possessed to endure and not be lost or destroyed by barbarian invaders was for it to be taken to monasterys where the knowledge was translated and reproduced, in addition these monasteries served as Universities, where individuals would make pilgrimages all over Europe to various monasteries to study with the monks. The Dark ages in Europe was not due to the oppressive catholic church rather the complete destruction of an empire and loss of knowledge, organization and centralized resources one of the reasons why plate Armour was prevalent during roman times in Britain but did not reappear until the 14th century. but during this period Islam was going through its golden age, invention, birth of the modern university and further pioneering of algebraic. theory Modern Genetics was fathered by a friar named Gregor Mendel, the atomic model and father of the Big Bang concept was a CATHOLIC PROFESSOR AT A CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY. Even Darwin got his start with the catholic church, it is ironic to say that Darwinism would not exist without the Catholic church
Anonymous13Beware the Lamiae: You are a well versed individual – who sees, what you describe as “misdesign and waste”. This stems from anger, of which stems from helplessness. Nearly everything has a cause – except one thing – the source – the argument then rests on whether you or I personally believe in an intelligent eternal creator or some eternal (uncaused) energy source(s – plural would be required to create multiple dynamics of energy that manifested themselves…well, into everything we perceive – things that require a catalyst.) In my opinion, men are more apt to understand this logic more so than women.
I believe all people are agnostic at one point or another – if not for at least a moment from time to time – no matter how solid they are in their foundational beliefs or their actions. So why would you not want to debate with agnostics? I assume it is because you cannot debate, in a rational – logical way – the existence of a creator god, but yet you attempted to do just that in many posts. Why are you not consistent in your beliefs? What do you believe constitutes a “backbone”? Bullheaded stubbornness? An inability to ‘move around the lantern’, an incapacity to think critically? We are all like the aforementioned perceptual states from time to time, to deny that is simply the implementation of a or multiple defensive mechanisms.
I do not believe this subject can ever be debated devoid of emotion – in a completely objective manner. There is no pure objectivity that is deployable by any human or human creation. You began with insults, though indirect or purposely “soft” or satirical, they had teeth nonetheless.
I am surprised the balance in the conversation. I agree that the balance of matter and correlation between the Big Bang and God are respectable arguments for the existence of a higher power. I’ll add that I consider the phenomenon that the moon perfectly covers the sun in an eclipse, and the opposite as well, indication of a grand design. I’ve never understood those against God, why hate what you don’t believe?
Colour me daft, but what exactly does religion have to do with MGTOW? Congrats that you have the free will to choose your own belief system. To ridicule others for choosing to follow God/religion shows just the same amount of heavy handedness that I (And other MGTOW-ers) have experienced from frothing-at-the-mouth feminazis. I am going to use just logic and not name calling to address this issue. To completely state that there is no such thing as God or a higher being is logically childish. Belief is belief, not unbreakable fact. There is always things, as simple mortals that we can never know. Just like when I hear a woman start to rant about Rape Culture, or when I hear an Atheist start to spout, my ears turn off. The only thing that we know for certain, is that we don’t TRULY know…
Silpheed's Mom Quote: "Having PMS is no excuse to be a bitch.."
All of those dozens of points just made are completely irrelevant. All questions of religion ultimately boil down to one thing, the real F-word: Faith.
I am trying to post, but my post is definitely not going through. Is there a word limit? No reason on why my post is just going off into oblivion.
Ok, broke it up into a couple posts below:
A couple points:
God’s self definition in the Bible: “I am that I am”.
In other words, God is being. And since being is existence, it doesn’t make sense to argue if being exists.God is Good. The Devil is evil.
God is the word “Good” with an o removed. The Devil is “d’evil” or “The evil”.
God is Good. The Devil is evil. Get it? The meaning is coded in the language.Even Richard Dawkins, at the end of his book, “The God Delusion”, admits that the knowledge of science is infinitesimal (his “burka analogy”). So even though Dawkins doesn’t believe in the God of the Gaps, in a way, he himself proves that the gaps are in fact God, if we take God to be synonymous with faith. We have to take the gaps on faith, and the scientific proofs as knowledge. So it really depends on how you say it, if you put the word God first, it doesn’t work, but if you say, “the Gaps are God”, then the semantics can work.
Here is the actual story of Christmas: The Story of Christmas. There is nothing supernatural about it. Just the farmers appreciating the resurrection of the sun (not the “son”) after winter.
What exactly is Christianity? Christianity is a conglomeration of 501c3 corporations whose business model is to grow wealth by investing in real estate and by charging it’s congregants a fee for the show. Theology and Theatre are derived from the same etymological root. Dress up in costumes, light some candles, play and sing live music – put on a show. Christianity’s major revenue stream is built by 2000 years of refining a process of perfect exploitation of humanity’s most vulnerable weaknesses: shame, fear, and guilt – used to brainwash young children who cannot yet think critically, into giving the church a steady tax of their salary throughout life, on the threat of eternal damnation. If you beat a kid up, he’ll recover. But Christianity’s child abuse is non-recoverable. This is so evil, it is probably the real reason the King kicked the religious folks out of England. Christianity operates by taking the one of the most holy and spiritual references, the Bible, and co-opting it as it’s own. Somehow, it escapes Christians that Jesus’s hatred was directed pointedly at the churches and priests for doing, well, what churches and priests do, and Jesus spends a greater part of the Bible accusing the churches and priests of evil, to the culmination of wrecking and then downright destroying the temple. (spare me your Jesus is the new covenant, the body is the new temple fluff). That’s Christianity. It’s a real estate business, and yes, it has massive pensions to honor for retired clergy. That’s where most of your offering is going.
By the way, nonprofit does not mean non-profit. Non profit means for profit with the profits reinvested in the corporation at years end, rather then distributed as a dividend, with some good supposedly being done for society. If you want to understand nonprofit business better, study it, as the subject of nonprofit business models is beyond the scope here.
A great number of Jesus’s sayings are taken practically verbatum directly from the Dao (Tao Te Ching) and the Dhammapada. Bible means bibliography, which is a collection of texts / stories put together into one document. Eckhart Tolle says the Bible, like all spiritual teachings, is a pointer to the truth, but is not the truth itself. The divine truth itself cannot be spoken.
Incidentally, Christian churches are completely feminized and pander to the women now, promoting feminist and single motherhood with the church as the father, which they are not supposed to be doing. Not even devout Christian MGTOWs can dispute that.
Christianity can not be monotheistic because “tri” means three. Spare me the “the three are the one” hubbub. Heard it, doesn’t make sense, so not interested.
The name Israel is a combination of three Gods, Isis, Ra, and El (Saturn). The meaning of the name Israel. Let’s get back to basics, people.
I believe all matter in the universe is vibration, and essentially, my personal belief in spirituality is similar to that of the Force, from Star Wars.
I believe all matter in the universe is vibration, and essentially, my personal belief in spirituality is similar to that of the Force, from Star Wars.
The moment you find yourself with any Jedi-like powers, let me know. I am dying to use the force choke on some people…lol
Silpheed's Mom Quote: "Having PMS is no excuse to be a bitch.."
A couple of points:
God’s self-definition in the bible is: “I am that I am”.
In other words: God is being.Debating the existence of being is pointless. Being is God. Everything is being. Everything together is God. Basically “the Force” from Star Wars.
God is good. The Devil is evil.
God is the word “good” with the o removed. The Devil is “d’evil”, or, “the evil”.
God is good. The Devil is evil. Get the picture? The code is hidden in the language.Even Richard Dawkins, at the end of his book, “The God Delusion”, says what science knows is infinitesimal (the burka analogy).
Christianity is not monotheistic, because “tri” means three and “mono” means one. (Christians, please don’t bother with the tired response to this: the three are the one, blah blah. It’s enough already. Really, don’t bother. Seriously.)
When you read the bible from front to back, including the new testament, you will understand very easily it is a collection of stories put together (named Bible, meaning bibliography, or collection of stories). The stories are very good in my opinion, and point to a larger understanding of the truth, but the closet it can come to is to point. It is not truth itself. I take Eckhart Tolle’s conclusion on this point.
What is Christianity? It is a conglomeration of 501c3 corporations who’s purpose is to invest in real estate for a profit, and then reinvest those profits yearly back into the corporation, as its growth value proposition. It does this by brainwashing preschoolers to feed the church their money their entire lives by exploiting the major biological and psychological weaknesses in humans, that is the guilt and shame factor, which is the same tactic the liberals use (probably the real reason the English King kicked them out). The church does this by taking a wonderful spiritual book, the Bible, and co-opting it as it’s own, which is exactly what the Bible says the the devil (the church) will do, to the letter. Somehow, it escapes Christians that the one thing Jesus absolutely hated was churches and priests, and Jesus spends the entire gospels preaching vehemently against them and directly accusing them.
Remember, by the way, that nonprofit does not mean non-profit. It means for profit, with profits reinvested at years end (rather then distributed as dividend), with some element of good supposed to be provided to the community. If you want to understand nonprofit business structure better, study nonprofit business, as it is beyond the scope of this topic.
Many of Jesus’s teachings in the Bible are ripped right out of the Dao (Tao Te Ching) and the sayings of the Buddah; word for word, practically.
Here is the real story of Christmas:
Story of Christmas. It’s a farmers celebration of the resurrection of the sun (not the son).The name Israel is made up of the three Gods: Isis, Ra, and El (Saturn) Meaning of the name Israel
Incidentally, as per my personal beliefs, I pretty much believe in the force, as described in Star Wars. Everything in the universe if some form of vibration, including our thoughts. I also believe that when walking in the supermarket past someone who has a demon inside her, that demon can jump into you, thereby putting you into a very negative state of vibration (angry). I believe that on faith. I believe in science, but, like Dawkins says, we don’t know most of science. I don’t believe in a “God of the gaps”, but you could say I would say the gaps are God, by axiom.
The moment you find yourself with any Jedi-like powers, let me know. I am dying to use the force choke on some people…lol
Does Jesus not say you can move a mountain with your mind? When you look at a man with murder in your heart, you have already murdered him? With what measure you judge, it will be measured against you?
Is this not the force? We can take the hollywoodism out of it and call it the divine essence, if you prefer. Or “God”, but that word comes with heavy religious baggage.
You most certainly have the ability to choke people with your mind, or your thoughts, but I don’t recommend doing so. One must be careful with these things. Power should not be given to those with evil intentions.
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