Advice needed: how to make a demand.

[Gomez da SolParticipant 12]

Hello gentlemen,

I’ve had a look through the forums posts so far for the keyword ‘demands’ and have scanned the results. Nearly all with the exception of one objectivism hit was matched with ‘women making demands’ or ‘the demands of children’ or ‘the demands of the state’, et. al.

I’m looking for information about how to actually make demands myself. I have concluded that somewhere along the line, how to make demands was either not taught to me, beaten out, or forgotten. To illustrate what I mean, as an example, I attend a group therapy session and in it I like to say taboo things and wind people up so that the conversation gets interesting, or it has a tendency to get banal. When talking to the leader earlier, I claimed that this winding people up was me making demands. I demand people make the conversation interesting. She pointed out that in not specifically addressing an individual, it was more like fishing. I’m throwing out banter and inviting others to participate, but never demanding participation of specific individuals. Therefore, in this case, but in many like it, I can say that some of the blue pill beliefs are still in place; I knew I had to make demands to compete in the world, and believed I was making them, yet when the group leader and I talked it out, it became obvious I was requesting attention, not demanding it, or requesting participation, not demanding it.

This goes doubly true for how the majority of my experience dating went. One to one and random encounters were never a problem, but large populations like at parties or in bars always were. Consider how disempowering it is to believe you are making demands and failing to have them met when to everyone else’s eyes, it was merely peac~~~ing. The role of fabled beta orbiter (to use PUA parlance) has this deficiency of not being able to conceptualise a true demand or focussed request vs. the go to action plan of trying to isolate the targeted party with good timing and a flamboyant hat in hand ritual.

This also comes up in work. For instance, if I want a job, a pay rise, or any change to working conditions, being able to correctly communicate a need and a desire to achieve it hinges on being able to make a demand. Failing to correctly communicate a demand and instead making a request or noisy hint instead (and believing it to be a demand) will result in that need being met if and only if someone with the power to meet the need is actively looking to do so, and can decipher the request. If on the other hand, they are content to only meet the demands placed upon them, then making a request in place of a demand gets you nothing. E.g. I want a pay rise. If I ask my boss for a pay rise, I may get it. If I comment loudly about financial troubles or ask about departmental raises in line with inflation, I may not, depending on whether the boss is in a compensatory mood.

Obviously, it pays to have as few people as possible running around with the ability to make proper demands while the rest are sold on requests and led to believe these are effective substitutes or literally one and the same thing, just as it’s better for any monopoly to keep competition down. It’s also frustrating to find another bloody thing I never knew about before that I wish had been taught to me by an unruly uncle in my teens.

So gentlemen, hopefully that makes some sense.

I’m going to start looking at assertiveness training to see if there is anything of value to be gained there on this subject and see where it takes me, but any thoughts would be welcomed, particularly from anyone who has had a lot of success in differentiating results with respect to approaches to problems or anyone who has been on this trail before and can signpost good resources.

Many thanks for your help.

 

[UntamedParticipant]

You can only make demands from a position of strength. When you make a demand, you are imposing your will upon that of another.
The position of strength has vastly changed for Men. We don’t live in a world where social codes dictate a woman be complimentary to a man, and by “complimentary” I don’t mean “subservient” and if SOME mens~~~s have treated SOME women like that, well, NOT ALL MEN ARE LIKE THAT.
This world we live in says, with due respect, that unless you have at least a 1,000,000 bucks in your bank account and a good f~~~ing Lawyer, you can shove your demands up your ass and go your own f~~~ing way.
So be it.

Don't let them Blame, Shame or Tame you!
Give 'em NOTHING, not even an answer!
#GenderSegragationNow!

[Anonymous 42]

Demands are your line in the sand! Never redraw a line, your demands will be obeyed or at least respected. Demands are based when your space or rights have been violated.

Like a door, you shut and lock everything up until your demands are either met or rejected, when rejected it’s time for more aggressive and assertive actions! Or the other way, covert and diabolical action to tyranny beset against you! One thing’s for sure, when you cave in to pussy, you become pussy…

[Gomez da SolParticipant 12]

I agree that a demand requires a position of strength. What I’ve been doing is making requests from a position of strength, thinking they were demands. Strong negotiating position, weak negotiating technique, and looking for causal factors elsewhere to explain the poor efficacy.

[RoyDalParticipant]

Gomez da Sol wrote:

I agree that a demand requires a position of strength. What I’ve been doing is making requests from a position of strength, thinking they were demands. Strong negotiating position, weak negotiating technique, and looking for causal factors elsewhere to explain the poor efficacy.

Read The 48 Laws of Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power. What you need to know is in there, all written out for us.

Society asks MGTOWs: Why are you not making more tax-slaves?

[kizellParticipant 368]

I’m not sure I would call fishing for topics a demand

At any rate, only people in positions of power and authority can make demands without looking like an idiot.  It really is as simple as that.

If you are not in that position,  best just go your own way.

[Gomez da SolParticipant 12]

Cheers I will order a copy of the 48 laws of power.

 

As to being in a position of power and authority Kandahar, it’s not a polar as that. There are many instances in day to day where power moves back and forth, such as working in a team. Being the only guy with the spanners doesn’t give you overall control of the team if another has the screwdrivers and the third has the Allen keys, but it should get you a coffee when there’s wrenching to be done.

[Soldier-MedicParticipant 2566]

Anonymous wrote:

Demands are your line in the sand! Never redraw a line, your demands will be obeyed or at least respected. Demands are based when your space or rights have been violated.

The idea that a demand needs to be made implies that there is a form of injustice.

Untamed wrote:

You can only make demands from a position of strength. When you make a demand, you are imposing your will upon that of another.

This is accurate.  The power you have in interpersonal relationships is access to your self.  In business, strength comes from a position of authority or having a needed skill set.  Meet my demands or I will go my own way, ordered you can be fired.

Within working, or social groups when you turning the wrench, asking is what is called for.  Never ask for what you are unwilling to provide.  If you set the example, then chances are, others will follow.  If they don’t then withhold your favor.  This gives you power to obliquely demand.

"I asked you a question. I didn't ask you to repeat what the voices in you head are telling you" ~ Me. ........Yes I'm still angry.

[kizellParticipant 368]

Gomez da Sol wrote:

Cheers I will order a copy of the 48 laws of power. As to being in a position of power and authority Kandahar, it’s not a polar as that. There are many instances in day to day where power moves back and forth, such as working in a team. Being the only guy with the spanners doesn’t give you overall control of the team if another has the screwdrivers and the third has the Allen keys, but it should get you a coffee when there’s wrenching to be done.

The situation you laid out there sounds more like respect than demands to me.  If the people you work with are on equal footing,  then any request you have of them will depend on their respect for you.  I think request is a more appropriate term here than demand.

[Gomez da SolParticipant 12]

Can’t wait to get ahold of this book now. If it reads like a translation of MGTOW I won’t be surprised. “The atheists bible” lol, good stuff. I’m off to demand my copy, laters y’all.

[KeymasterKeymaster]

There is a difference between a demand….. and a COMMAND.

Anyone can be demanding. “BAH!!!I WANT A COOKIE!!!!” But are you able to get what you want by commanding it, or even better, having the commanding presence to get people to give it to you without even asking for it?

That’s the real key.

For example, you have been socialized to “ask” a woman out and to “ask” for her number. Women will even say they PREFER it and want to be “asked”. But the reason they want to be “asked” is to be able to say NO to you. They want to be able to *reject* you. Asking for her permission heightens her value (in her own mind) and has the unintended side-effect of lowering YOURS – even though you’re being polite.

But what if you COMMANDED it?

Then “can I get your number and call you some time?” becomes “you should give your number”.

Demanding it works too: i.e. “put your number in my phone”

••••

First rule in sales: If you give someone the opportunity to say “no”, they usually WILL.

In your example about asking for a raise, the same rule applies. By asking for a raise, you have just communicated that “no” is an acceptable answer. They already know you will go back to your desk and keep working. So since your boss will never spin your chair around and say “come into my office, I wish to give you a raise” ….. you wait for a time when he expects you to stay after 5PM and you tell him “you can offer me a raise and I will be happy to”. And you can say it with a smile.

In that moment, you have just said everything. You have commanded it without demanding it. You allowed him to “offer” it instead of you asking for it. And now if he doesn’t, you’re not going back to your desk… because you’re already on your way out the door. You’re still coming in tomorrow, but you have permanently planted the seed and you can silently begin looking for better opportunities – which he should now be counting on.

The one thing he will NOT do in that moment — is say “no” to you.

And, if he still expects you to stay without offering a raise, YOU are now the one who will be saying “no” to helping him out.
You can even feel good about it.

If you keep doing what you've always done... you're gonna keep getting what you always got.

[IGMOW (I Go My Own Way)Participant 2572]

If you fully know the range of outcomes from a decision someone else you will make, based on what you want from them (and them doing or not doing), you then state to them what would be the option and outcomes based on each decision, and let them decide.  You can gave them some flexibility in regards to when they make their decision, but you hold them to it.  As was written above, such needs to come from a position of strength, where you have pull.  Otherwise, you don’t make demands, but you can request something of someone.

"I am my own thang. Any questions?" - Davis S Pumpkins.

[Gomez da SolParticipant 12]

I’ve picked up a couple of books on assertiveness, which seems to be the umbrella term for managing social transactions. The min/maxing will have to wait until I’m up to speed on the basics. Vitaly has some cojones.

 

[bigboy83Participant 11312]

Honestly, keep your trap shut. Those c~~~s can’t stand men who don’t talk to them. Then they’ll start whining, then you start commanding.

Shit Tested, Cunt Approved.

[Dark KenshiParticipant 2132]

Well, first step would be to look to an opportunity where you have the “upper hand”.

Then, you should seek to say what you want to have in a way that the person can’t say “no” to you, like Vitaly just did.

That remembers me when I was a “blue piller” that wanted a certain “hot work colleague”, and I started to chat with her about something work-related like “oh, how is your project coming up? Is it ok? How are you managing your time through it?” and bla bla bla… When I was about to go home, I simply said “Give me your phone number, so we can keep on chatting into some other things”. She gave me her number without even questioning, without saying a word.

I think that with men the thing is a little different, because we respect other men not by how his demand is, but what he is demanding and why, since we are more logic driven than women (they just go with the flow). You have to measure if the man you are demanding something from has some respect for you, then you could look for the “upper hand” moment and the “right moment” (that is when he needs you for something).

Hope it helped…

Cheers!

"Young was I once, I walked alone, and bewildered seemed in the way; then I found me another and rich I thought me, for man is the joy of man." Odin, Hàvamàl, stanza 47.

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