A Few Words in Favor of Fiat Currency

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

No, I don’t have any questions, for you. I stand by the truth. The function of taxes in a system of fiat currency is to clamp people into their fixed roles in society. It prevents the working class from rising up, the top 1% from lowering down, and clamps the middle class right where it is. I don’t care what you believe. Some of us see through the social programming and indoctrination. Just because they say otherwise, doesn’t mean it is true. Yes, debt is fiction. It’s just as made up and imaginary as any other board game rules such as “Monopoly”, “Chutes and Ladders”, and “Life”.

“DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1.” – this is incorrect. Debt is always more than money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest. Therefore, there will always be more debt than money. That equates to “You owe me, permanently”. None the less, printing money is not a loan. I doubt very seriously you are going to convince anyone here that it is. A loan is when I risk my assets to gain them back plus interest. If an average person loans money to someone, he or she is risking the assets that he or she actually earned. However, if I counterfeit some dollars and then loan them to you; I haven’t risked anything. Rather, you are expected to pay me the face value of the paper plus interest for simply creating it. That is FRAUD, sir. The people who print money do not risk everything. When they fail, they just print more money and keep going. I do not have any questions for you, because you do not possess the truth. The ruling class designed your curriculum for a reason. For them it’s not about supplying you with the truth; it’s about furnishing to you what you believe, in favor of them. They will tell you a law has a certain function while behind the scenes it does something completely different. I certainly would hope you do not believe everything the ruling class tells you.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/monopoly_banking.jpg

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

If YOU have any questions, you should read this book:

https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin

[Anonymous 24]

Veniversum wrote:

If YOU have any questions, you should read this book:

https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin

I second this. If you have not read this book and have an opinion about this topic, you are missing out on the origins of the story. Please read this book.

Doc, not that I am hoping anymore for you to actually answer any good points I make, I am going to still ask you… Have you read this book?

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Believe what you want…but you are wrong.

Veniversum wrote:

“DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1.” – this is incorrect. Debt is always more than money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest

Debt is always more than BACKED money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest.

Thats why we have FIAT Money. About 98% of the money is FIAT Money thats the result of the effect of interest and compound interest.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

FrankOne wrote:

I’d disagree about the federal government spending money without knowledge or consent; all the money is tabulated, other than the black budget, it’s easy to look up what is spent where.

As for consent, we voted ourselves into this mess. The only way out is voting our way out, revolution, or opting out for a better deal (leaving the country). I suppose working in the gray economy for cash or going off-grid are other options.

It’s irrelevant whether you agree or not; because truth is objective and oblivious to your opinion. The money is spent without our knowledge, because they do not tell us everything they are spending it on. It is spent without our consent, because the people have no say. “We” did not “vote” ourselves into this mess. This mess was carefully constructed over a period of years by people who understood the power of fiat currency and it’s use to bribe politicians and create institutions. “We” do not have *any* culpability at all. The ruling class maintains the illusion that we do, in order to avoid being held responsible.

“The adversary is closer to home… it is the Pentagon Bureaucracy.” – Donald Rumsfeld.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Ohno wrote:

Believe what you want…but you are wrong.

Veniversum wrote:

“DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1.” – this is incorrect. Debt is always more than money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest

Debt is always more than BACKED money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest.

Thats why we have FIAT Money. About 98% of the money is FIAT Money thats the result of the effect of interest and compound interest.

Sir, this is what I said. You are now contradicting yourself. First you said debt creates money 1 to 1, and now you are saying it is paid back with interest. What’s even weirder is that you are agreeing with me while pretending to argue. I literally *just* said that the money was expected to be paid back with interest, just as you have. You just made my point for me. Yes, there is always more debt than money. I already established that fact.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Ohno wrote:

:

Excuse me, but debt is not a fiction at all.
DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1. This is not an opinion you can look it up if you dont believe me. So therefore if money is real, then debt is real.

Ohno wrote:

Believe what you want…but you are wrong.

Veniversum wrote:

“DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1.” – this is incorrect. Debt is always more than money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest

Debt is always more than BACKED money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest.

It cannot be 1 to 1 while one is simultaneously more than the other. Blatant contradiction…

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Which is it: A. 1 to 1
(or)
B. 1 to ( 1+ interest)?

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Ohno wrote:

Debt is always more than BACKED money, because the money is expected to be paid back with interest.

Ohno wrote:

DEBT CREATES MONEY.AND MONEY EQUALS DEBT 1 to 1.

Which is it? 1 to 1, or 1+interest?

[OhnoParticipant 668]

So do you count FIAT MONEY as money or not?

[OhnoParticipant 668]

I say its A… 1 to 1 debt creates money…interest doesnt. Thats the whole point

.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

Ohno wrote:

So do you count FIAT MONEY as money or not?

The correct answer is B, because for every $1 you borrow, you have to pay back that $1, plus interest. That means debt is not equal to the amount of currency created 1 to 1, but rather exceeds that amount by the percentage of interest. No, fiat is just currency. Real money is service, or commodity, and has nothing to do with debt. If I go outside my house and pick 4 oranges, I can trade those. That makes them money. Therefore, real money is not created by debt. It’s created by labor. That’s why real money was originally backed by a commodity, such as precious metals. They were representative of labor. Labor is how wealth is actually created. Debt can only exist if someone actually borrows something. Printing a currency and then “loaning” it is fraud, because the printers of it never earned any assets to begin with, and certainly didn’t create any wealth. Therefore we should not owe a printer of money the face value of the paper plus interest just for printing it. The printer never had any assets to begin with, and certainly didn’t create anything of value through labor, other than paper. It’s always been fraud and it will always be fraud.

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Veniversum wrote:

The correct answer is B, because for every $1 you borrow, you have to pay back that $1, plus interest.

no kidding? you have to pay it back, plus interest? say whaaaat?
Well thats clear dude,i guess we all know that…. but Im not s~~~ting you, the answer is still A.

Veniversum wrote:

Real money is service, or commodity, and has nothing to do with debt.

absolutely delusional….

[OhnoParticipant 668]

Veniversum wrote:

Therefore, real money is not created by debt. It’s created by labor

Btw thats what most people believe.
But if it was true then Henry Ford doesnt make any sence here.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
Henry Ford

[FrankOneParticipant 1435]

I’d say the purpose of taxes is to pay for government services and wealth redistribution that the idiot public demands. If the public didn’t demand such services and wealth transfer schemes, well, we’d all elect small government candidates. If you don’t have taxes, and the government paid for all of this going more in debt, the debt would skyrocket, inflation would be uncontrollable, and the government would collapse rather quickly, probably in a period of a couple years if that. Once a sufficient fraction of the public is dependent upon redistribution schemes, like social security, that have a large/broad ‘base’ of support, such programs are permanent — that’s why that one is called the ‘third rail of American politics’, as in, reform it and be electrocuted. So many of the lobbies that bribe the Congress are broad sectors of the population.

As for funny money (fiat currency) creation, in a fractional reserve scheme, you’re BOTH wrong. The money multiplier is defined as 1/reserve ratio in a fractional banking system. For larger institutions with huge reserves (over about 100MM USD), that’s 10% at least in the US currently. So one dollar puts $10 into the system, *theoretically*. $1/0.10 = $10. That one was easy, though I simplified it accounting only for the higher reserve ratio of the largest institutions. You can look that one up in a macroeconomics textbook, 1/reserve ratio is typically called the ‘money multiplier’ in a magical rainbow fiat currency scheme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_multiplier As one might imagine & most of you understand, this has a tendency to cause inflationary pressures……

As for the rest of it, the vast majority of government outlays are documented public information — i.e. we know where the State blew its wad of cash.

Posting a video of Rumsfeld, only makes the point he made when taken in its original context — accounting systems are out of date. The entire military budget back in 2001 was about 1/9 of what was ‘unaccounted’ for of 2.3 billion… rendering that interpretation as bogus. Rumsfeld was arguing for upgrading the IT of procurement. Whilst there is certainly contract padding, gentlemen’s agreement to alternate contracts between major defense contractors, etc, simply taking money and not delivering goods or services at all… is uncommon. Still, I have nothing but criticism for the military-industrial-congressional complex. First step is to rename it the Department of War if it’s purpose is to engage in a bunch of foreign Wars. And there are certainly sectors prone to EXTREME fraud, like medicaid/medicare fraud.

I would argue the [tax] money is used to bribe individuals (voters), this is the ‘bread and circus games’ of politics that has existed since ancient times. It’s just that we no longer have the ancient Senate providing bread and lions & exotic animals & gladiator games in the Colleseum to entertain the Mob outside of Rome anymore; now it’s welfare, social security, agricultural subsidies, military defense contracts, disability payments, etc ad infinitum to keep the plebians content. That said, there is also a lot of money going the other way, bribes to get special treatment for certain lobbies.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

FrankOne wrote:

I’d say the purpose of taxes is to pay for government services and wealth redistribution that the idiot public demands.

…and you’d be incorrect. Printed money pays for government. The top 1% or so have legislated loopholes including, but certainly not limited to, storing money on the Cayman Islands as well as entire tax libraries full of loopholes and special deals so that the rich do not have to pay taxes. Likewise, some of the “Democrats” who are up for election this year claim that they want to remove those loopholes. That will accomplish nothing however, since the rich will just move to another country that doesn’t require them to pay at all, or as much. Wealthy people protect their wealth. This isn’t conspiracy theory; it’s fact. Rule number one is protect your wealth. Even Kevin O’leary said it, and he is a guppy compared to the billionaires. Taxes do not fund anything. Government is funded by printing money. If it weren’t, they couldn’t claim we have a national debt. Working class people get bumped up into the next tax bracket while working overtime, which sops up most of the extra wealth they attempt to create themselves. I can hear wealthy people now saying “You shouldn’t punish success!”. You shouldn’t punish hard work either. They clamp the working class in it’s place to perpetuate production. It’s that simple. They don’t want the common man getting the idea that he can create his own business to compete with the ones that the ruling class owns. It’s rule number one. That’s all it is. On top of all these lies, the Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports (CAFR) which are mandatory to be revealed to the public, prove that over 180 separate government agencies are profiting from the stock market. Why then is that profit not being used to pay off the debt? I’ll tell you why; if there is no debt, there is no excuse to tax the people 50% of their income, which means the common man will be faring a little too well to be prevented from competing with the controlling businesses.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

In a system of currency backed by precious metals, however, taxes do work exactly as you have stated.

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

“The standard of living of the average American has to decline.
I don’t think you can escape that.” – Paul Volcker

“The beginning of reform is not so much to equalize property as to train the noble sort of natures not to desire more, and to prevent the lower from getting more.” -Aristotle

[VeniversumParticipant 492]

People are really just parroting the narrative of the ruling class, because they have been trained properly to do so. This makes the facade, the illusion of legitimacy, seem not to be an illusion at all. The more indoctrinated the individual, the more powerful the persons belief in the legitimacy of the system. It’s a religion, no different than any other. I think Mark Twain said it best when he said:

“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

*Note that he included religion.. because statism is a religion, no different than any other. It is based on belief, hearsay, and a trust in the institution: faith. It’s based on nothing but faith. The average person only believes in it because others do. To anyone who believes otherwise, I challenge that person to recite every law in place of their residing country. They can’t, because they have no idea what the laws are. They expect to be told what they are, and do not examine the actual written laws themselves; and in most cases aren’t even authorized to.

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