What I can flat out say is “True Forced Loneliness” is not compatible with MGTOW at all.  As I see it, a MGTOW may be put in a place where he does have “True Forced Loneliness” (I did have Rejected as a category for why a man would go MGTOW), but when one decides to go their own way, they take what doesn’t work, and let it go, and move on to what can.  As I see it, if women end up rejected a MGTOW, the MGTOW will then treat it as a document of liberation, and work on themselves.  Yes, the loneliness can hurt like hell, but you pick yourself up, go on, and find out what works, and get a better attitude and not care what others reject you.  You be true to yourself, and you don’t care haters hate.  If you need some emotional support, you get it.  You find real friends who can help, if you need them.  You use the rejecting as a sign that the person rejecting just isn’t a fit.

What I see from “True Forced Loneliness” is these individuals think they have a special kind of victim card, and playing it will cause the world to come rushing to them, give them goodies and take pity on them.  Maybe they think that women will find them so desperate that they need to help.  Maybe they get media coverage and there will be funds to study it.  Maybe people will break through and help, because they are dire.  This playing the victim card I don’t see in any way as compatible with MGTOW in any way.  We are all victimized to some degree by the system, others, and so on.  Some are less so, others get it real bad, but you need to move on and step forth.  And yes, you can get really, really wounded, but you won’t get over it, if you insist on using the victim as your identity.  The SJW/Feminist side plays this card all the time, and I am sure MRA does it also.  But a MGTOW?  Well, you own up to your hurt, but you turn it into a strength if you can, or a known limitation.  You don’t expect the world to jump on your bandwagon and pity you to success.

Please feel free to comment and correct me here.

Not trying to put you on the spot, just reading between the lines.  Correct me if I am wrong.

My $0.02:

It comes down to free will — where there is no choice, there is no morality.  Don’t make the mistake of abstracting pride of being a MGHOW away from its causes.  Pride is the virtue a man acquires from moral achievement.  Rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, and productiveness, are all virtues that result in pride.  In regards to TFL and MGTOW, I believe that it is rational to be a proud MGTOW in the face of TFL.  A MGHOW is choosing independence; he is choosing integrity; he is choosing honesty, justice, and productiveness.  Therefore, his choices legitimately result in his pride of being a MGHOW if the face of his TFL.

TFL may seem unjust, but it is not unjust – it is unfortunate.  Justice is simply the principle that each man gets what he deserves – in accordance with his choices, not in accordance with his fortune.  So, while it may seem as if TFL MGTOW cannot properly claim to be MGTOW, when we look closely at the way in which the pride of being a MGHOW is earned by each man, regardless of his fortune; we can see that MGTOW is indeed compatible with TFL.

Furthermore, and more to the point, the TFL MGTOW is also choosing independence.  He knows that if he only lowers his standards far enough, he could have a mate.  For every TFL man, there is a TFL woman.  He refuses to lower his standards, and therefore chooses the virtue of independence over the vice of dependence.  Again, resulting in legitimate MGTOW pride.

I don’t mind tweaking this and my goal isn’t to say “suck it up”.  But, it is to do what one can to get somewhere.

I guess also I am not a huge fan of “justice” as a concept, nor rights actually.  People don’t get what they deserve in life, and to end up believing you are entitled to something is a road to depression, when lacking power.  I see power coming from overcoming what didn’t work and compensating.  Empowering comes with helping with this and helping others.

“True forced loneliness” is a label concocted for the sole purpose of denigrating MGTOW. Anyone who adopts it is an imbecile.

I disagree here. It was a label someone adapted on YouTube, and got some other followers with it, to be able to try to play a victim card, hoping it would result in companionship.  I won’t deny that TFL does happen, just the MGTOW way is one of moving past that, and empowering oneself.  Life deals you lemons, either send the lemons back and demand that it give you better or make lemonade.  I think Cave Johnson spoke on this best:

IGMOW (I Go My Own Way) wrote:

Cipher Highwind wrote:

“True forced loneliness” is a label concocted for the sole purpose of denigrating MGTOW. Anyone who adopts it is an imbecile.

I disagree here. It was a label someone adapted on YouTube, and got some other followers with it, to be able to try to play a victim card, hoping it would result in companionship. I won’t deny that TFL does happen, just the MGTOW way is one of moving past that, and empowering oneself. Life deals you lemons, either send the lemons back and demand that it give you better or make lemonade. I think Cave Johnson spoke on this best:

. I guess also I am not a huge fan of “justice” as a concept, nor rights actually. People don’t get what they deserve in life, and to end up believing you are entitled to something is a road to depression, when lacking power. I see power coming from overcoming what didn’t work and compensating. Empowering comes with helping with this and helping others.

True, people do not get what they deserve in life.  But they should.  This is the principle of justice.  So if you believe this; you believe in justice.

If you don’t believe in rights, then you believe it is OK to kill, assault, rob, and cheat.  For, how can you say that people don’t have the right to live, but it is wrong to kill them on a whim?  Or that people don’t have a right to safe passage, but it is wrong to ambush them just for the hell of it?  Or that people do not have the right to own anything at all, but it is wrong to steal when the opportunity presents itself?  Because God said so?  OK.  But this does not solve the contradiction.

Rights do not tell us that we must do anything; they only tell us what we may not do. We may not aggress against another person.  We may not kill, steal, or threaten to kill or steal.  If you agree with this, then you believe in rights.  To believe in wrongs is to believe in rights.

If you still believe that justice is a vacuous concept, or that rights are illusory, I’d be interested to know why.

As I see TFL, they don’t take ownership but blame conspiracies for their situation, as if it is some sort of giant plot. 

I would argue that these men aren’t in a state of TRUE Forced Loneliness, but Falsely Chosen Loneliness.  I agree with you that many of the men who see themselves as being subject to TFL are in fact just whining and playing the victim; and are not truly forced to be lonely.  There are very few men who are actually experiencing TFL.  There are many more who fraudulently choose the label as an excuse to garner pity.  I wasn’t speaking of those men.  I was speaking of men who do not use it as an excuse, but rather accept the reality of their inability to attract a suitable mate.  These men can be MGTOW.

* In regards to rights, it can be part of a framework for law, that enable a society to allow people to have access to things, and also prevent loss of things.  There aren’t rights outside of a framework of a society that can enforce them with law.  Without the society and law, there is just freedom.  So, rights, by their nature are limited and not sufficient for resolving issues regarding conflict in will of people.

* With rights, people argue anything and everything is a right, and they are entitled to it. the SJW/Feminist side plays the rights card all the time.  It then comes down to the acquisition of power and using it.

* All rights, by their nature will impose upon the freedoms of someone else, unless everyone is in isolation.  There is no such thing as rights that aren’t restrictive.

* Rights center around having your will imposed on others to get what you want.  In this, there is no personal responsibility at all that can be found, and how I should restrain myself, or what I should to with my freedom for others.  Only something with duty can do this, or something else (love?) that can cause people to act in a manner that is positive and people benefit.  You never get this out of rights.  Even respect, which is needed to honor rights, has to come from duty or something, or it isn’t done.  Anything else is just forced compliance by individuals to a bully, whether it be the state or some sort of person weapons and bullying system that is used.

In regards to justice, while I do believe that it is best if we can have people improve, the whole, “Get what they deserve” is fundamentally flawed and can’t be answered in a way that works well, and it will come from again coercion:

* It is human nature to believe you are wronged and need it fixed.  So, you look for someone to fix things.

* The reliance on justice is now empowering for someone else.

* People get dealt wrong cards in life, and have to deal with it, often without help.  It ends up impossible to determine what level help someone needs to get what they “deserve”.

* Endless reliance on justice results in there not being an end to cycles of retribution.  A justice system, to deter people, will often make someone suffer far worse than what they did.  Steal money from someone?  You not only pay back the amount of money stolen, and even more, you are punished and paid even far beyond this.  This level of deterring punishing ends up being less just than the wrong, but is done in the name of justice.  A “gets what they deserve” will mean causing someone to lose things, and also never forgiving someone, which is a way to end the cycle of retribution.

* Thinking about who “deserves” what is a recipe for discontent for someone.  It leads to resentment over someone who gets lucky.

* There is untolds amount of evil that have been done by someone who goes on a vindictive campaign to cause loss, in the name of justice.  It is debatable whether or not more evil has been done in the name of vice or justice.

That being said, I would say that a different framework for doing what is right is needed, besides “justice” and “rights”.  I do believe laws should be followed, and so on.  I am not one to do it out of fear of punishment, but for other reasons.

I am sure I am missing a number of things here, but this is off the top of my head.  And with this being said, feel free to support justice and rights and argue for them.  I just seen such as not really productive to do what I need in life.  I can spend way too much time trying to “get even” with someone, and not enough getting head.

richardhutnik wrote:

As I see TFL, they don’t take ownership but blame conspiracies for their situation, as if it is some sort of giant plot.

I would argue that these men aren’t in a state of TRUE Forced Loneliness, but Falsely Chosen Loneliness. I agree with you that many of the men who see themselves as being subject to TFL are in fact just whining and playing the victim; and are not truly forced to be lonely. There are very few men who are actually experiencing TFL. There are many more who fraudulently choose the label as an excuse to garner pity. I wasn’t speaking of those men. I was speaking of men who do not use it as an excuse, but rather accept the reality of their inability to attract a suitable mate. These men can be MGTOW.

I would say that going MGTOW is a good way for the TFL to get out of their rut and make something of themselves.  Just because you were forced to be somewhere, and life does that, doesn’t mean that someone can’t find other ways to get on with their lives.  There are lives fed that, “if you do so and so, you can get someone” and “there is everyone for someone”.  TFL need to reframe their being and find strength in where they are and become resourceful.  Losing the you deserve someone also will help there.